Bush Administration's latest excuse... - Page 4

Lonestar · May 28, 2003, 21:53

Elijah, the NSA breaks codes, although I cannot speak for what goes on at Langley...

Whaleboy · May 28, 2003, 21:54

"In the long run they would like stable democracies. I think that's clear... everyone wants that. In the short run, they'd settle for a neutral dictator (ie, doesn't have to be pro-American, but definetly cannot be anti-American)."

Would appear that Arab opinion, and the reactions of the Iraqis on the ground is countering that speculation.

South killer · May 28, 2003, 21:55

Quote:

Suddenly becoming the victim of terrorists that take thousands of lives can do that to you.

i am really sorry about 9/11 but that isn't an excuse to continue with your imperialist actitudes towards 3rd world countries. Irak wasn't a threath to the world, hadnn't got MDW, There is no proof of it to be linked to international terrorism (except a report that was proved to be an essay from an university student

), The iraquis don't seem in better condition that before as all their resourses are being looted by foreign industries, the infraestructure is in shambles, their country is in anarchy and when they protest agains US they are shoot by yanquee soldiers.

Do you, americans, ever wonder why most of the world HATES you? Do you think they are just envidious ?! Or is perhaps for something you've done?

I've got the answer: It's because your imperialist foreign policies!!!!! Don't believe all the propaganda your government tells you; You aren't the bastion of democracy, it's the opposite thing. Ypu've installed more puppet dictatorships that any other country in the world.
Also remember that in the 80's the USA aided Saddam economycally and fueled the Iran-Irak war, that lasted 10 years.

Whaleboy · May 28, 2003, 21:56

"Elijah, the NSA breaks codes"

My mistake, the CIA spys. I dunno one of the RAOL's does it (random association of letters). My point is that America has, and has been using that capability.

reds4ever · May 28, 2003, 21:57

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Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

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But do they want 'reforming'?

I believe so. At the very least get rid of the dictators that help out of the fundy's. In the long run they would like stable democracies. I think that's clear... everyone wants that. In the short run, they'd settle for a neutral dictator (ie, doesn't have to be pro-American, but definetly cannot be anti-American).

History says otherwise..IMO we just don't understand these people on a fundamental level

Lonestar · May 28, 2003, 21:59

Quote:

Originally posted by elijah
"Elijah, the NSA breaks codes"

My mistake, the CIA spys. I dunno one of the RAOL's does it (random association of letters). My point is that America has, and has been using that capability.

Well, if you ever have a question about NSA, DIA, or Naval Intelligence come ask me next time.

"Who killed Kennedy?"

None of your damn buisness.

Whaleboy · May 28, 2003, 21:59

8 years IIRC, and it was probably the single greatest factor for Saddam staying in power so long. He was another of America's puppet dictatorships. Bring back memories of some guy in a cave with a beard?

SK: Couldnt have put it better. If you want to stop the terrorism, change the foreign policy, and give it time. The best defence against terrorism is good homeland security (to a point) and good intelligence (hint hint).

Imran Siddiqui · May 28, 2003, 21:59

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Would appear that Arab opinion, and the reactions of the Iraqis on the ground is countering that speculation.

As long as we put in a good effort this time (and don't just leave), I think we can make it work.

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History says otherwise..IMO we are just don't understand these people on a fundamental level

Perhaps but they MUST change! They can't go on like this, and now is the best chance we have in the foreseeable future to start that change.

Whaleboy · May 28, 2003, 22:05

"As long as we put in a good effort this time (and don't just leave), I think we can make it work"

They hate you, they hate your presence, they hate you for what you have done, they feel assaulted, they feel violated. They didnt like Saddam Hussein, thats for sure, but talking to some of my Iraqi friends, they say that at least he was a fellow Arab. This "project" is pretty much doomed to failure as I been saying all along, and I just dont believe that even with the best of intentions (which I doubt they have), America wont make this work, the way they are doing it.

"Perhaps but they MUST change!"

Why? Sure they dont conform to your sociological paramaters and sure they live in a society you might describe as primitive, and sure they do things differently to you, but that makes it no less valid. For you to force your subjective on them is ludicrous! They hold the same opinions about US society, who is to say is correct? Yet you, as an equal subjective, have been judge, jury and executioner!

reds4ever · May 28, 2003, 22:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Perhaps but they MUST change! .

Isn't that up to them? We only assume they aspire (sp) to a western-type democracy because it works for us.

Imran Siddiqui · May 28, 2003, 22:09

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Why?

Because them blowing up buildings is something we should be promoting? Their oppresive nature is something we should tolerate? Their ruthless treatment of minorities is something we should turn our heads from? It's time we draw a line in the sand. If they didn't have oil, they would have changed long time ago... or else they would have died.

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Yet you, as an equal subjective, have been judge, jury and executioner!

Yep... that's a good part about being hegemon. When we decide we've had enough, we can go in and try to make things right. We let them do what they wanted for years now, but after 9/11 it just isn't good enough.

reds4ever · May 28, 2003, 22:17

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Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

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Why?

Because them blowing up buildings is something we should be promoting? Their oppresive nature is something we should tolerate? Their ruthless treatment of minorities is something we should turn our heads from? It's time we draw a line in the sand. If they didn't have oil, they would have changed long time ago... or else they would have died.

Quote:

Yet you, as an equal subjective, have been judge, jury and executioner!

Yep... that's a good part about being hegemon. When we decide we've had enough, we can go in and try to make things right. We let them do what they wanted for years now, but after 9/11 it just isn't good enough.

Imran, if you think the US should install a puppet dictator in as many of these 'problem' states as possible, just say so. Just don't wrap it up in this "Operation Iraqi Freedom - Democracy -Liberation" nonsense

Imran Siddiqui · May 28, 2003, 22:19

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Imran, if you think the US should install puppet dictator in as many of these 'problem' states as possible, just say so.

But that's NOT the #1 aim! The #1 aim is a Turkey like democracy (preventing religious parties). The friendly dictator is a fallback. Puppet dictators are more trouble than they are worth... and is the fallback fallback.

reds4ever · May 28, 2003, 22:22

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Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
[q]and is the fallback fallback.

I've never heard that phrase before

Imran Siddiqui · May 28, 2003, 22:24

Well it's better than saying 'The O'**** option'

Whaleboy · May 28, 2003, 22:27

"Because them blowing up buildings is something we should be promoting?"

Of course not. You dont hurt them with foreign policy, they wont do it.

"Their oppresive nature is something we should tolerate?"

Yes. Feel free to critisise it, or even take non-drastic measures against it (but be advised to take moral and well thought out measures). If the people want it changed, then it will be changed. If they dont or show no sign, then you have no right to waltz in there and change it.

"It's time we draw a line in the sand"

No it isnt. It never is. It is simply none of your nations business!

"If they didn't have oil, they would have changed long time ago... or else they would have died"

So it is about oil then?

"When we decide we've had enough, we can go in and try to make things right"

No you cant. Sure you can physically and you have the means as a powerful military, but ideally, you shouldnt, and you wouldnt be able to take such agressive, judgemental acts.

"He who sets himself up as judge of a man will be shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods" - einstein.

In the absense of the gods, I'm laughing.

"We let them do what they wanted for years now, but after 9/11 it just isn't good enough."

9/11 was an attack by a small number of individuals. Sure it kicked you where it hurts and it damaged your pride, another Pearl Harbour, but at the end of the day, it is no excuse to waltz in and change regimes. It is especially no excuse to go around changing societies, cultures, governments, simply because you dont like them on moral grounds. Im sorry but your morals are entirely subjective, and arent shared by everyone in the world. The sooner America ceases to assume otherwise, the better.

Meantime, if you are that scared about terrorism (which actually causes relatively little collateral... compare 9/11 with a single night of the blitz), then beef up internel security and intelligence. Sure it wont win votes, but it'll work.

Imran Siddiqui · May 28, 2003, 22:34

It is an excuse to change regimes (at least in Iraq) to me. We've stood by and let them get away with crap for too long 'because they had oil'. No more of that. We should push for more democratization and at the same time, less support for fundamentalism.

At the VERY least, less support for fundamentalism. We've already been struck in Africa, New York (twice), our citizens in Indonesia. Governments that look the other way when these people camp out in their countries should be told that this won't be tolerated.

Then they are given the choice. Either harbor terrorist groups or do business with the US. And if you pick doing nothing about terrorists, then don't be suprised if relations get MUCH worse before they get better. We probably won't attack another country, but we will engage in the war of rhetoric.

At the very least, the regime change in Iraq was politically easy and showed how serious we are about this. This isn't going to be another lob a few hundred bombs and forget about it sort of thing.

Master Zen · May 28, 2003, 22:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Lonestar

Well, if you ever have a question about NSA, DIA, or Naval Intelligence come ask me next time.

"Who killed Kennedy?"

None of your damn buisness.

I though the usual answer under these circumstances was "If I told you, I'd have to kill you!"

Whaleboy · May 28, 2003, 22:45

"It is an excuse to change regimes (at least in Iraq) to me"

Why? Because they are a dictatorship? If so, please read the rest of this thread.

"We've stood by and let them get away with crap for too long"

You were never in a moral or legal position to NOT "let them get away with cr@p" as you put it. This crap, is part of another culture, which you have replaced with your own, which the Iraqis are rejecting.

"We should push for more democratization"

Why? Nothing holy about democracy, especially a culture whose only experience with it has been disastrous!

"Governments that look the other way when these people camp out in their countries should be told that this won't be tolerated"

Good! Am I to take it that you support a change in foreign policy that WONT antagonise these people? Of course, a pretty major part, if not the major part is no more preemptive wars, because thats been pretty good at antagonising people thus far!

"Either harbor terrorist groups or do business with the US"

Out of the two, I rather you use coins rather than bullets.

"we will engage in the war of rhetoric"

Good, thats got more of a chance of changing things willingly from within, if the reasoning is good enough. If not, well, sticks and stones.

"At the very least, the regime change in Iraq was politically easy and showed how serious we are about this"

Wait for a few years on that one. Seriously you got my laughing out loud now, you'll wake up my cat!

Iraq will be hugely difficult, imo, nigh on impossible for the US at least. The UN stands a much better chance.

reds4ever · May 28, 2003, 23:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
At the very least, the regime change in Iraq was politically easy and showed how serious we are about this. This isn't going to be another lob a few hundred bombs and forget about it sort of thing.

That's both shortsighted and niave, in the long run the US has (probally) changed nothing except create more martyrs

DinoDoc · May 28, 2003, 23:17

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Sure it kicked you where it hurts and it damaged your pride, another Pearl Harbour, but at the end of the day, it is no excuse to waltz in and change regimes.

Why not?

reds4ever · May 28, 2003, 23:26

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Originally posted by DinoDoc

Quote:

Sure it kicked you where it hurts and it damaged your pride, another Pearl Harbour, but at the end of the day, it is no excuse to waltz in and change regimes.

Why not?

Because that sort of attitude was a factor in 9/11 happening in the first place

DinoDoc · May 28, 2003, 23:28

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Originally posted by reds4ever
Because that sort of attitude was a factor in 9/11 happening in the first place

I thought self-defense was looked on as a good thing. Silly me.

Master Zen · May 28, 2003, 23:31

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Originally posted by DinoDoc
I thought self-defense was looked on as a good thing. Silly me.

Tell me please what Iraq had to do with 9/11...

reds4ever · May 28, 2003, 23:34

Quote:

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I thought self-defense was looked on as a good thing. Silly me.

you really don't get it do you? if you'd (we'd) have left them alone in the first place..

DinoDoc · May 28, 2003, 23:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Master Zen
Tell me please what Iraq had to do with 9/11...

I wasn't thinking about Iraq. elijah mentioned 9/11 and I thought it was obvious that we were talking about Afghanistan.

reds4ever · May 28, 2003, 23:39

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Originally posted by DinoDoc
I wasn't thinking about Iraq. elijah mentioned 9/11 and I thought it was obvious that we were talking about Afghanistan.

I'd check back through the posts if I were you....

DinoDoc · May 28, 2003, 23:41

Every thread starts when I get to it.

Master Zen · May 28, 2003, 23:41

Did you read the article on page 1 DinoDoc? Wolfowitz himself said that the US presence in Saudi Arabia was one of the reasons of al-Qaeda doing what it does. So, don't you think THEY had a right to self-defense too at a perceived threat?

Every argument you and others can give to support silly wars like this can backfire when looking from the other side of the fence.

Master Zen · May 28, 2003, 23:44

Quote:

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Every thread starts when I get to it.

yeah, ok, good answer...