Fungus production & commerce questions

[Rubin]

The in-game help says that production in fungus squares improves with the discovery of Centauri Technologies. I tested this with Lal with a zero planet rating. I found no change in fungus FOPs with the discovery of Centauri Ecology and Centauri Meditation. What am I missing? Are there certain "special" Centauri techs that trigger an increase in fungus production?

I'm also told that my commerce (or commerce rating) increases with some economic technologies. I've never figured out what exactly this means. I see an "I get +12, they get +6" at the base screen. How is this income (both ways) determined by economic techs??? I thought it was based on number of bases and base sizes ... which I btw never figured out either

[Sikander]

I don't tend to care about / use fungus for much, so take this with a grain of salt. IIRC some increase in productivity is tied to planet rating, while others to tech, and still other bonuses come from SPs. It would be nice to have an all-inclusive table.

[Static Universe]

Originally posted by Rubin

I'm also told that my commerce (or commerce rating) increases with some economic technologies. I've never figured out what exactly this means. I see an "I get +12, they get +6" at the base screen. How is this income (both ways) determined by economic techs??? I thought it was based on number of bases and base sizes ... which I btw never figured out either

This is explained in detail in the Datalinks under Advanced Concepts/Commerce (Advanced).

At least in SMACX it is.

[Rubin]

Duh, I sure overlooked that Datalink entry

Reading the formula is easy. Now, what am I supposed to know now:

If I have only one base, I only get commerce (*busy putting numbers into the formula*) from the highest energy output base of each of my faction treaties and pacts (and surely submissives), right? If I have ... ehh, many bases, I loose commerce for the number of bases that exceeds the number of my business partner's total bases, right? Finally, I add +1 energy to each of my bases that recieve commerce - if I'm Planetary Governor. And if I research quickly, getting just one more economy tech than Morgan, I'm on par with him and his +1 commerce bonus, commersewise.

Honestly, that's just too much thinking for me during normal gameplay Other things are going on too: conflicts, fungal , drone riots, tech-race etc. OTOH, I was asking for it... Basically, I should keep myself from digging too deep into game mechanics.

I figured out, though, that commerce is based on pairs of bases! This is nice to keep in mind, if you're planning on getting some extra income from commerce - not just blindly tossing over small bases to your submissives, thinking it helps commerce.

The techs just add a little to the multiplying factor, and I have never seen players beeline for commerce techs. It seems other techs are more important. But if there is a significant gain - which is hard for me to spot, please post it!

Hmm, I hope I finally figured out the commerce concept. Thanks Static Universe!

And, Sikander, an all-inclusive table of fungal production factors would be nice. I just hope such a table is not as complicated as the commerce stuff

[Flare]

Commerce energy can be VERY good, especially if you either have submissives or pact mates. Or, ~WEG~ you could stack the deck towards a pure builder stuye game using the University, Cyborgs, Data angels, Gaians, the Peacekeepers, Morgan, the Free Drones, or any of the more peaceful factions. It is fun when the AI either has fusion around or before you do due to them building infrastructure.

[Static Universe]

Originally posted by Rubin

I figured out, though, that commerce is based on pairs of bases! This is nice to keep in mind, if you're planning on getting some extra income from commerce - not just blindly tossing over small bases to your submissives, thinking it helps commerce.

It can help commerce, if you outnumber your submissives in bases, which you probably will.

Example, if you have 10 and they have 5, you get commerce for 5 bases.

If you give them a useless base, you get commerce for 6 bases. Your sixth bases may be fairly productive compared to their sixth base, so the gain can be significant at times.

Thanks Static Universe!

Yes, I screen shot like nobody's business.

[Mongoose]

The 'Centauri Techs' that improve fungus production are the higher ones...Meditation, Genetics, Psi. One other in SMAX, I think.

Rubin, you're not quite right about the lack of advantage of 'blindly tossing over' bases to a submissive. The commerce generation is based on the sum of raw energy (before inefficiency loss) generted by the paired bases. If you have a base of decent size and energy production, even if it is paired with a submissive base generating only a paltry couple of energy, you can reap significant commerce income. What's more, commerce is like raw energy production...after inefficiency loss and allocation, it gets multiplied by any base enhancing facilities you have in your base. Compare the often negligible productivity of, say, one of Yang's poorly placed myriad seabases with the commerce (perhaps as high as 10) that you would get by giving that same base to a submissive.

Suppose that you are at about 20% inefficiency loss in the base which you pair with the donated base for commerce purposes. Assuming you are not depending on a global PSYCH allocation, your allocation is at 50/50 and that you have a moderate amount of infrastructire in place at your base, you should be getting 8 ec and 8 labs from the commerce. That will often be greater than the value of the mineral production plus whatever support minerals you might eschew plus energy derivatives at the donated base had you kept it.

If you invest some terraforming time in the base before you gift it, and if Global Trade Agreement is in place,
the return to you can be substantially greater than I have described here.

[CEO Aaron]

Originally posted by Static Universe
Yes, I screen shot like nobody's business.

How DO you get a screenshot out of SMAC? I tried once, but with no luck.

[Static Universe]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron


How DO you get a screenshot out of SMAC? I tried once, but with no luck.

While in SMAC, hit the *Print Screen* button on the key board to capture the screen to the clipboard.

Do not exit from the SMAC game.

Get back to Windows somehow, either by *Alt-Tabbing* into another program, or hitting the *Windows* key (if your keyboard has one to bring up the Start Bar.

Open a graphics program. MS Paint works well.

Go to Paste and paste the contents of the clipboard into the image.

If you exit from SMAC before the paste, the screenshot will not appear properly.

[Jamski]

Press the print screen button on your keyboard, and then paste (cntl-v) into paint or photoshop etc.

(Edit - Damm Static, you're too fast )

-Jam

[Rubin]

Mongoose, I see your point. But what I was referring to, was when I got Yang into submission, I would not just give him ALL his bases back IF he had a ton of them. I'd rather give them to pet-Zak, since he usually has only a few bases. So, the three of us have just about the same number of bases, and we all benefit from the commerce because of the base pair thing (that is, when Zak and Yang are pacted too).

What I was NOT aware of (kinda missed it), was that commerce is based on raw energy. This means that I benefit from my terraforming time even if I have murderous inefficiency. This is especially worth noting if you're playing Peacekeepers. (I should have realized that 10 hours ago - before I hit the Start Game button).

In my last game - just finished a few hours ago - I tried to boost my commerce income. I was running the Peacekeepers. Yang was my *too close* western neighbour (I had to give him both techs and credits for a while). Morgan was a little further north - pinned by Yang and Deirdre. Yang went after Morgan, but I played the PEACEKEEPING one, so at the doorstep of Morgan's last base I made Yang end the war. During the 20 years the war lasted I managed to build up a significant invasion force ... just in case Yang would make me a target too. Only 2 years after the Morgan/Hive war Yang invaded Peacekeeper territory. BIG mistake, Chairman Yang! 4 turns later Yang begged for mercy
I gave back Yang most of his bases. I had 7 - Yang had 8. Let the commerce begin! Paying special attention to the generated commerce I managed to boost it quite a bit. Commerce went sky-high when Morgan surrendered The Morganites were just a few bases in the Garland Crater, so I talked Yang into giving Morgan 3 more bases. Base count: Yang 9, Peacekeeper 8, Morgan 7. I was researching 1 tech every year running Democracy, Green, Wealth - 30%economy, 70%labs.

I won by being elected Supreme Leader, and it was one of the few games that actually finished. Great trading-fun!

One last thing in this post: Lal seems to benefit a lot from the bigger bases when it comes to commerce... Hmm, never thought of that! Commercewise! Morgan seems a bit crippled to me.

[Static Universe]

Originally posted by Rubin
Commercewise! Morgan seems a bit crippled to me.

Actually Morgan gets the best commerce. He has a built in bonus of +1 to the commerce rate, so he has an advantage over everyone as far as trade goes.

Combined with his high economy rate he can produce very high trade income.

[Rubin]

Yes, I know, but I was just so surprised to see how well Lal does in commerce.

I tested the commerce with Lal vs. Morgan. Both pacted with Zakharov. It seems Morgan is getting the upper hand in commerce income - all things being even. Same tech, same base placement (Sunny Mesa), SE (dem, FM, wealth) etc. Only Lal and Zak has 7 pop, Morgan 4. In the test Mogan did get 1 more energy from commerce, but due to the smaller base he had a little less raw energy. Not a surprise, though.

Still, after commerce income has been added ... inefficiency has to be subtracted. That means: 20% inefficiency cuts 20% of the commerce too. That was how my test turned out, anyway... Correct me, if I'm wrong!

If I should point out a winner... well, I'll have to say Morgan - even with less energy he gets more commerce. Though, I'm not sure if it is only due to his +1 commerce rate. Hmm, game mechanics!?!

Based on this I'd correct myself: Lal has to be careful with the efficiency when it comes to commerse. Otherwise the benefit may be lost. Right?

Now, a question: Is it true that Morgan gets a higher interest when I get a loan from him?

[gwillybj]

Rubin wrote:
The in-game help says that production in fungus squares improves with the discovery of Centauri Technologies. I tested this with Lal with a zero planet rating. I found no change in fungus FOPs with the discovery of Centauri Ecology and Centauri Meditation. What am I missing? Are there certain "special" Centauri techs that trigger an increase in fungus production?

Lines from alpha.txt regarding resources from fungus, with tech classes and levels inserted:

TECHNOLOGY TREE

flags = Special tech flags

001000000 = Increases ENERGY production in fungus:
Centauri Meditation (E5), CentMed, 0, 0, 2, 4, EcoEng, CentEmp, 001000000.
Secrets of Alpha Centauri (D12), AlphCen, 0, 4, 0, 2, CentPsi, SentEco, 001001001.
Temporal Mechanics (B14), TempMec, 0, 1, 3, 2, Eudaim, Matter, 001000000.

010000000 = Increases MINERALS production in fungus:
Centauri Genetics (E7), CentGen, 0, 2, 0, 5, CentMed, Viral, 010000000.
Matter Transmission (B13), Matter, 1, 0, 3, 2, NanEdit, AlphCen, 010000000.
Threshold of Transcendence (E15), Thresh, 0, 1, 3, 4, Create, TempMec, 010000000.

100000000 = Increases NUTRIENT production in fungus:
Centauri Ecology (E1), Ecology, 0, 1, 2, 3, None, None, 100000000.
Centauri Psi (E8), CentPsi, 0, 1, 1, 6, CentGen, EcoEng2, 100000000.
There is no third tech for FungNutrient increase.

In order of TechLevel: Ecology+N, CentMed+E, CentGen+M, CentPsi+N, AlphCen+E, Matter+M, TempMec+E, Thresh+M.

Centauri Empathy (E3) adds no FungResources.

There is no Facility that adds FungResources.

Only one Secret Project affects FungResources: The Merchant Exchange, which adds +1Energy in every square in its base's production radius, including fungus.

Other techs, facilities, and projects affect only the base squares, the faction overall, and/or ecodamage, but that was not this question.

[Static Universe]

Originally posted by gwillybj

Only one Secret Project affects FungResources: The Merchant Exchange, which adds +1Energy in every square in its base's production radius, including fungus.

In SMACX, you also have the Manifold Harmonics SP which boosts resources for fungus (and monoliths too):

Planet Rating / Nutrient / Energy / Mineral
0 / +0 / +1 / +0
1 / +1 / +1 / +0
2 / +1 / +1 / +1
3 / +1 / +2 / +1

But it comes quite late in the game.

[Lazerus]

3-5-6 With all techs and SP's then ... not bad

[Rubin]

This is great! gwillybj, that is a nice - easy to understand - list!!! Thanks!

But, I cannot get the Merchant Exchange to produce +1 energy in fungus squares! I tried several times - including the scenario editor. Still no extra energy from fungus...

Who would have guessed that Temporal Mechanics, Matter Transmission and Threshold of Transcendence were Centauri technologies?!? I think I'll try adding this information into the help or concepts files - for easy access in the in-game help menu.

Btw, I'm also told that the Nanoreplicator reduces eco-damage. This is still a mystery to me It increases production - that way I get more minerals and potentially more eco-damage, so it is quite hard to tell if eco-damage is reduced. I tried building a Nanoreplicator at a different base, but I was not able to see any increase in clean minerals. Maybe the Nanoreplicator helps some kind of overall eco-formula preventing global warming. I really don't know.

gwillybj: you seem to have some fundamental understanding of the alpha.txt. Do you know where I can find more information on flags, rules and that kind of stuff? Maybe an alpha.txt-FAQ or walkthrough?!?

[Static Universe]

Originally posted by Rubin

Btw, I'm also told that the Nanoreplicator reduces eco-damage. This is still a mystery to me It increases production - that way I get more minerals and potentially more eco-damage, so it is quite hard to tell if eco-damage is reduced. I tried building a Nanoreplicator at a different base, but I was not able to see any increase in clean minerals. Maybe the Nanoreplicator helps some kind of overall eco-formula preventing global warming. I really don't know.

The role of the nanoreplicator in the ecodamage formula is explained in Ned's Poly column on ecodamage.

http://apolyton.net/misc/column/175_ecodamage.shtml

Ned, Blake and Fitz have also determined that neither the number of techs, the planet rating nor the construction of Nanoreplicators, the Pholus Mutagen or the Singularity Inductor have any effect on the number of 'clean minerals.' Instead, these have an affect the degree of eco-damage when present.

[gwillybj]

Rubin asked
Who would have guessed that Temporal Mechanics, Matter Transmission and Threshold of Transcendence were Centauri technologies?

If you look at the tech level series and insert Centauri Empathy between Centauri Ecology and Centauri Meditation, then add Transcendent Thought at the end, you will have an unbroken ten-link chain leading directly to Transcendence Each tech in the list is a prerequisite of the next tech in the list.

Do you know where I can find more information on flags, rules and that kind of stuff? Maybe an alpha.txt-FAQ or walkthrough?

Look in alpha.txt itself at the block of text preceding each section of specifics…
; …the lines that begin with semicolons.
That is where I quote from most often. Other sources are the Manual (the pdf on the budget-priced CD is identical to the printed (US) manual) and the Prima guide (it's still available, but takes some searching). I try to keep records (Notepad txts) of any errors brought to my attention so I don't repeat the wrong stuff.
Other than those, this forum is my major source of help. Check out the links section at Apolyton-SMAC. Most if not all of those pages have links to other sites not linked from the Apolyton page. And don't ignore the AC-Creation section of this forum. There is quite the collection of hidden gems sleeping in there