Unbelievable

[Myrddin]

I have put off buying Moo3 until it was fixed, given the feedback on the forum. Now they tell us that the patch is only a 'beta patch' and incompatible with the earlier data patch

Does everyone remember when Moo3 was held up as an example of how to develop a game; lots of user input, no rush to release etc etc etc

At least Civ3 came out early, had few bugs, and is getting expansion packs, despite the criticism it had at the time

[Kloreep]

It's a beta because they didn't quite finish testing. So long as no bugs are found in whatever areas of the game they haven't yet tested, the gamma version will be the same as this beta (except for the name, of course ).

As for Civ3... I wouldn't say it had "few" bugs. I stopped playing it till the third or fourth patch (1.21) because of bugs, and did the same with MOO3 till yesterday. Whether MOO3 will stay on my HD this time, though, I don't know...

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Myrddin
Does everyone remember when Moo3 was held up as an example of how to develop a game; lots of user input

Probably the WORST way to develop a game. "User input" is all over the place - what you want is NOT what I want. All the so called classic games were developed with NO user input whatsoever - Civ, Xcom, Xwing, etc. etc. etc.... Maybe developers need to go back to the days when they relied on their own vision, and developed accordingly, rather than listening to all the noise on the internet.

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by Stuie


Probably the WORST way to develop a game. "User input" is all over the place - what you want is NOT what I want. All the so called classic games were developed with NO user input whatsoever - Civ, Xcom, Xwing, etc. etc. etc.... Maybe developers need to go back to the days when they relied on their own vision, and developed accordingly, rather than listening to all the noise on the internet.

You are right up to than point. SSI when they make the AD&D role-playing game did listern to one person who wrote to then. In the first pool of radiation you have to sent up to 30 days healing even it you have clercal able to cast healing spells. His idear they could have the clerical cast all of his healing spell on the party and then rest up to memoryise more and then cast more healing spells on the party and keep doing this untril the party is heal.

[Jamski]

But that was fine in-game Charles because it happened automatically. You didn't have to sit in front of the computer for 30 days....... even the first PoR memorised the healing spells automatically when you clicked on rest. It was GOOD design.

-Jam

[krait23]

Sequels should be designed with at least some user input though. I see little to no user input evident in MoO3...

Hell they even tossed out the Elerians, and NOONE who played MoO2 could have wanted THAT! (well maybe female and other strange players but I assume thats a minority ).

Lata
Krait

[vee4473]

Originally posted by Stuie


Probably the WORST way to develop a game. "User input" is all over the place - what you want is NOT what I want. All the so called classic games were developed with NO user input whatsoever - Civ, Xcom, Xwing, etc. etc. etc.... Maybe developers need to go back to the days when they relied on their own vision, and developed accordingly, rather than listening to all the noise on the internet.

You are right on.

I'm thinking that it is very easy for a designer to have his vision for a game get lost and diluted in the ideas from everyone and his uncle.

Perhaps they should just stick to their vision, make a game and let it be done.

If this is what happened with MOO3, then fine.

What's that old saying...When you try to please everyone you end up pleasing no one...

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by Jamski
But that was fine in-game Charles because it happened automatically. You didn't have to sit in front of the computer for 30 days....... even the first PoR memorised the healing spells automatically when you clicked on rest. It was GOOD design.

-Jam

My Commodor 64 copy of the game when it first came out didnot have that. I have than old copy of it for the IBM I will play it to see it the IBM one have that.

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by Jamski
But that was fine in-game Charles because it happened automatically. You didn't have to sit in front of the computer for 30 days....... even the first PoR memorised the healing spells automatically when you clicked on rest. It was GOOD design.

-Jam

Plus with the 1/2 megcycle clock speed of the C-64 it take about 45 mimutes of real time to have your party rest 30 days.

[Kahn]

Originally posted by Stuie
Probably the WORST way to develop a game. "User input" is all over the place - what you want is NOT what I want. All the so called classic games were developed with NO user input whatsoever - Civ, Xcom, Xwing, etc. etc. etc.... Maybe developers need to go back to the days when they relied on their own vision, and developed accordingly, rather than listening to all the noise on the internet.

I would beg to differ on this point. I get very valuable input by first watching how users interface with the GUI (taking special note to whether they are for instance, constantly switching between two screens to get all the information they need), then by interviewing them on how they use the software. Last, I will sit down at the GUI myself and operate it in the same manor that I observed the users operating it.

Once I redesign a GUI, its quite common for my superiors to at first scratch their heads and "poo-poo" it because most want to see something about as interesting as a spreadsheet. Most of the GUI's I design look like game interfaces, not because I like games (though it helps!), but because that is what most young people are used to. Sure cuts down training time! And in the end, both my users and my superiors are happy!

[masotime]

Originally posted by Myrddin
I have put off buying Moo3 until it was fixed, given the feedback on the forum. Now they tell us that the patch is only a 'beta patch' and incompatible with the earlier data patch

Well - I am actually quite relieved that they decided to release even a beta patch, rather than, because the patch hasn't fully completed "regression testing", they decide to delay it again. For me, I was quick sick of waiting.....

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Kahn

I would beg to differ on this point. I get very valuable input by first watching how users interface with the GUI ....

I was referring more to the "user input" that one gets from the internet. Actual direct interaction with end-users, such as usability testing etc., can be very valuable. "Input" from the anonymous masses on the internet:

[Kahn]

Originally posted by Stuie


I was referring more to the "user input" that one gets from the internet. Actual direct interaction with end-users, such as usability testing etc., can be very valuable. "Input" from the anonymous masses on the internet:

One word... filter!

[CharlesBHoff]

Also sometime gameplayer do have the right to say what they like and dislike in agame. Than example no real game company will delete the savegame files as you load it to so it your character die you cannot reload it. Alright there are some games where this is than opion which you can have it you want it but they tell you what it mean ahead of time.

[Q Classic]

civ3 got plenty of user input, and it turned out all right...

[Craig P.]

Good thing the patch was just a beta, because it's really not quite done yet. It's helped an awful lot in some areas, but particularly in MP there seem to have been some regressions.

[Grumbold]

Originally posted by Q Cubed
civ3 got plenty of user input, and it turned out all right...

Firaxis ignored 99% of the advice they were given for Civ 3 which meant the design was mostly their own, both the good and bad bits.

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by Grumbold


Firaxis ignored 99% of the advice they were given for Civ 3 which meant the design was mostly their own, both the good and bad bits.

Which is they right. When SSI release Pool of Radiance in the middle or late 1970's none of the designer never play than P&P roleplaying game your party have to rest 30 days or more to heal it if got badly damage in combat. Many DM and player wrote to then telling them this wrong and explame how it handle in the P&P game. They make than text run with this idear in the next D&D games they where working on, they like the idear and add it to all they future D&D games they make.

[Vyshka]

Originally posted by CharlesBHoff
When SSI release Pool of Radiance in the middle or late 1970's

huh? That's a typo right? More like late 80's - early 90's.

[Grumbold]

That was my point. Lots of people wrote lots of stuff about what Firaxis should do in a Civ III title, but they were not invited to do so by Firaxis as part of the design process. Firaxis read very little of it, although the Apolyton list was perused in whole or in part. The game shouldn't be used as an example of 'design by consultation'.

Where I am critical of their development process is in their decision to not even look at what non-Civ titles had brought to the genre to see if they would be worthwhile inclusions or inspire other ideas. Not expecting thousands of internet fans to come up with enough coherent ideas to be worth listening to was one of their better decisions

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by Vyshka


huh? That's a typo right? More like late 80's - early 90's.

Middle 1980's it came out for the Commodore 64, IBM Computer (actural make by IBM back then.) , Apple and I believe Altair computer system. It came on 5 1/4 inch disk only the apple and commodore ones have you make 5 1/4 inch play disks to play the game the Commodore one you have to have 8 play disks. The IBM one you have to install to your harddrive to play.

[Raion]

Oh, the Elerians are in the game as a Magnate Civilization. All where wiped out, but most of them are in the game. You run into different ones, so instead of just (what 7 or 8 players) like MOO2, one can have a lot of species in the game. Even 2 human factions, plus all the others, that can, I think go off on their own.

The patch is a beta patch, to see if anything else is wrong, and there are a couple minor things, but then, they are still working on it.

I would not want it the same as MOO 2, as that was grossly unbalanced for the average player.

Even in MOO 3, they are going to make it even for the human player, or try and even out all the species.

[Tssha]

You couldn't play games on the Altair. It was the first computer, with only 9 switches and lights, and you had to program it yourself. Plus at that time the idea of using computers for ANYTHING, much less games, seemed ludacrous. Everyone thought of it as some crazy toy with no real use. Now look at it, the computer is everywhere, and you're using it as we speak. Or as I type and you read. The point is, while you could probably make a game on the Altair, you probably couldn't do much in it. Plus the graphics were terrible .

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by Tssha
You couldn't play games on the Altair. It was the first computer, with only 9 switches and lights, and you had to program it yourself. Plus at that time the idea of using computers for ANYTHING, much less games, seemed ludacrous. Everyone thought of it as some crazy toy with no real use. Now look at it, the computer is everywhere, and you're using it as we speak. Or as I type and you read. The point is, while you could probably make a game on the Altair, you probably couldn't do much in it. Plus the graphics were terrible .

Sorry I meant Infrogame new name.