Vox Public Announcement - Peace in Our Times?

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Arrian
Oh, and Whitebandit, you rock! Thank you for chiming in.

At least SOMEBODY sees our side of this.

-Arrian

[major disclaimer] this is certainly not in any way an official position of GoW, far from it...

He's not alone.

I myself am in the minority on my own team calling for utter destruction of Vox. I probably would not have even offered exodus if this were a private PBEM. I don't see a reason to keep a team alive simply to spare feelings, especially a team which will likely not effect the game in the future no matter where they end up. I say this quite bluntly and I think swift destruction is actually the kindest thing when it comes to Vox as well. I know I would not want to be playing along only as a vassal state with no real impact on a game, I would personally prefer to be removed and assimilated into one of the other teams than to have only a minor role for a long time. "It's better to burn out than fade away". But, as I say, I am in the minority.

Your problem is all your supporters in this are the minority on all the other teams.

[Arrian]

Your problem is all your supporters in this are the minority on all the other teams

Yeah, I'd noticed that. Well, thanks anyway, UnO.

-Arrian

[Beta]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx

Your problem is all your supporters in this are the minority on all the other teams.

And I wonder why that is?

[Arrian]

Because the other teams have a vested interest in preventing us from gaining too much.

The more forthcoming participants in this thread have admitted as much.

-Arrian

[ZargonX]

From the People of Legoland,

Though in this time of ping-pong diplomacy it may be hard to sort out what statements are true, what statements are false, and what statements have been twisted beyond repair, it is necessary that people (and teams) draw their own conclusions and opinions from the morass of words thrown at them.

As such, we of Legoland are of the opinion that peace is the right answer. While it is true that Vox may have committed a trecherous act, it is also true that they have repented for it, and have paid a steep price for their actions. While it has been said that what goes on in Estonia is nobody's business but Vox and Gathering Storm, world stability is the concern of everyone.

GS has several times accused Vox of playing up their position as a victem instead of an aggressor. This is a true statement, but I believe the rest of the world is smart enough to understand the truth of the situation, regardless how Vox spins it. Perhaps Vox has gained sympathy not because of their loss, but because of the early diplomatic faltering of GS.

But, back to the point at hand: peace. GS has rejected Vox's proposal, and given their reasons for doing so. While some of their reaons may be valid, and others not, closing the door on negotiation seems a harsh step. And again, while it is true that GS may be able to wipe Vox out, that doesn't mean that they should. We the people of Legoland would strongly urge a pause on both sides to this conflict so all may discuss together the issues. It is hard to negotiate in good faith when troops are still streaming through the fields on both sides.

As I have said, these are our feelings on the issue: all we ask is that you take them into consideration. There is still a chance for good things to come from all of this, if people are willing to work together.

[Aeson]

GS had already said they wanted to renegotiate the treaty and sent a proposal so the clock was already ticking to expire the initial treaty. How many turns passed between the start of the renegotiation and the start of the war I do not know.

Check again, we were renegotiating the tech trading treaty, not the border treaty.

[nbarclay]

If Vox had truly repented of their treacherous ways, Beta would not have used half-truths to slander us further in a last-ditch effort to bring foreign pressure to bear against us. While I do believe that Vox regrets the consequences their actions have brought down on them, I view that as something entirely different from true repentance. And when the signs I see point toward continued self-serving duplicity, not true repentance, I cannot accept arguments based on the premise that Vox has repented as valid.

I also fail to see how Vox's continued presence on our continent benefits global stability - unless, of course, you view "global stability" as synonymous with having Gathering Storm weakened by the need for extra troops to guard against an untrustworthy neighbor while Lego faces no such obstacle. In my view, stability would be served far better by having Vox share a land mass with its apparent friends than by having them share a land mass with a nation they have betrayed and attacked. So far as that is concerned, given their foreign minister's self-serving, deliberate, and dishonest efforts to promote international discord in this thread, would not the best thing for global stability be if Vox were eliminated completely?

Nathan

[nbarclay]

I would also appreciate it if other teams would keep one other thing in mind. If Gathering Storm yields even a milimeter due to international pressure spurred by Beta's latest misrepresentations, we in effect reward Vox for actions we view as reprehensible. As any parent, or any other person who has been responsible for children, should know, rewarding bad behavior tends to lead to its repetition. That is a precedent that I do not wish to see set.

Nathan

[Hot_Enamel]

GS requirements for peace ?

[notyoueither]

[Master Zen]

Nathan:

in your opinion what proof would you need that Vox has repented? I'm serious, we would all like to know what you expect from Vox so we can base our diplomacy on that fact. If all you want is Vox's destruction, then I honestly don't see how you can expect GS's moral position to be any more worthy of Vox's. Do you really want to stoop so low as your hated enemy? From what I've read of this thread, it appears you do...

Disclaimer: MZ's personal opinion, not GoW's...

"an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind..."

[alva]

"an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind..."

Not the case here.

[Aidun]

What I'm syaing in this post are just some of my personal views.

GS states every time that they do not trust Vox because it has broken the agreements and treaties they hade with GS. I am getting the impression that Vox should have properly terminated their agreements and treaties before they started their war. This is, honestly, bullshit. I cannot imagine that the strategists of GS are so naive that they would not expect war when Vox would properly terminate the treaties, knowing that Vox had a very bad territory and the only solution to a better one was to attack GS.

That GS does not trust Vox after this treacherous action (whether it was the only option or not, it remains treacherous) is fully understandable to me, I would think just the if Vox would have attacked Spain.
However, IF Vox would be kept alive in north Estonia, GS has no other option than to trust Vox again by making deals with them. GS could benefit from that.

To reply to any concession of Vox's peace proposal with "very nice, but we cannot trust them" is, in view a bit an overreaction. I agree that it is for you very hard to trust Vox now, but after 60 turns of peace, you must have regained some trust. If Vox promises to give their free techs to you by the time they enter the new age, I trust them, and GS should trust them too by that time.
This counts but only IF Vox will be kept alive.

Beta is very clever. He knows that diplomacy is not GS's best side. As Vondrack pointed out, GS's diplomacy is a "plain disaster". You have to do something about that. It would have been a lot easier for you if you were just as good as Beta in building up a fair image of your country.

Another thing is that while reading everybody's posts in this tread, one question came up in my mind: Have the members of GS ever heard of the Versailles Treaty of 1918?
France demanded that germany would be heavily punished for the treachery of breaking treaties and other evil crimes they committed.
Brittain was less demanding, though they had huge debts to the US.
The US pressed on not burning Germany to the ground, not turning it into a poor farmer's state without industry, a medieval state, like France demanded. Finally, France had to accept to only get control of one of the main industrial areas of Germany, the Ruhrgebiet. Although France's demands were not totally included in the treaty, it was still a harsh treaty. We all know what the outcome of this so-called peace treaty was: countries distrusted each other and Germany was extremely poor.
These two facts caused another world war to break out, 21 years after the peace treaty of Versailles.
What I mean to say with this is that it is up to GS to decide what they will do with Vox, but that anything you do will have consequences in the future, negative or positive in any way you can think of: your economy, your power, your international relations, your diplomacy and of course your very survival, will be positively and negatively influenced by the decision you make now. Removing Vox from your continent may cause economical benefits, but a diplomatic disaster that will isolate your nation and prevent it from winning. On the other hand, accepting the Beta Treaty may cause your country to be everyone's favorite, but have serious negative implications for its power in the world on the long term.

I want to finally state that I understand GS very well and I would almost surely have done the same against AI. Vox has lost the war and a consequence of losing a war may be losing all your territory and your independence. Vox has to accept that like everyone else. Vox knew that there would be a risk that such would happen when they started the war. This may not be nice, but it's the way it goes.

Aidun

[GhengisFarb™]

So which Voxian is Corporal Hitler?

[alva]

Shall we compare when/if something has happened on BOB??
(I'm not going to, bit I could mention Lux here again)

[Beta]

Originally posted by Arrian
Because the other teams have a vested interest in preventing us from gaining too much.

-Arrian

Ok - that's half of it.

[Beta]

Originally posted by nbarclay
If Vox had truly repented of their treacherous ways...

A couple of points. Repentence is something more applicable to RL than a game. That being said - I know what this game means to us all. Ans so, yes, I personally do have one regret in this game. As mentioned awhile back, I still greatly regret our hasty decision regarding Lux. I say that in respect to the issue of repentence, and not as any form of persuasion given the current situation.

Also - I find it interesting that GS is the only team that sees us as "treacherous". We have solid relations with the rest of the world. Some of that is a function of the natural tension that exists from us sharing the same continent, but it clearly goes beyond that.

I also fail to see how Vox's continued presence on our continent benefits global stability -

... said the AI nation

..given their foreign minister's self-serving, deliberate, and dishonest efforts to promote international discord in this thread ...

"self-serving" - if our efforts were totally self-serving as you have indicated - Vox would have been gone ages ago.

"deliberate" - you bet.

"dishonest" - nope - not at all. We have been very honest in this thread.

...would not the best thing for global stability be if Vox were eliminated completely?

Nathan

Again - and as I intimated above - if this were true then it would already be.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by Beta
Ok - that's half of it.

Says you.
You fail to provide any evidence with that remark though. Empty words do not impress me.

Aidun: I am absolutely certain that accepting Beta's proposal will not make us the world's favorites all of a sudden. As for the trust issue, I can testify about myself that I would have been able to trust Vox again even though they have violated several agreements with us in the past, if Beta didn't go out of his way to assure us that Vox is furious with us and will constantly conspire against us once the war is over (much like they have done ever since the war began). In other words, Beta's out-of-game actions demonstrate Vox's nature much more intensely than Vox's in-game actions do.
Therefore, the best solution in GS's sake would be to remove Vox from our continent and relocate them to where they can cause the least harm to us.

As for your analogy to the Versailles treaty: the Versailles treaty is one of the causes for WWII, because it enabled Hitler's rise to power (along with the depression in the US which cascaded all over the world, and particularly over the German economy, and many other foreign and domestic events). There is also the matter of the rest of the world keeping quiet as Hitler created the Nazi state, built a huge army, annexed Austria and so on and so forth. But I was never fond of comparisons between in-game events and major historic geo-political events anyway.
Whether there is a lesson to be learnt from this analogy is a different issue, but I assure you that we've done our thinking over this a thousand times and we are convinced that removing Vox from our continent, one way or another, is in GS's best overall interest - and we act according to our best overall interest and according to the code of behavior that we believe in, much like any other team, including yours.

[Beta]

Originally posted by Shiber


...but I assure you that we've done our thinking over this a thousand times and we are convinced that removing Vox from our continent, one way or another, is in GS's best overall interest - and we act according to our best overall interest ....

BINGO!

[Shiber]

Originally posted by Beta
Also - I find it interesting that GS is the only team that sees us as "treacherous". We have solid relations with the rest of the world. Some of that is a function of the natural tension that exists from us sharing the same continent, but it clearly goes beyond that.

You have demonstrated yourselves as opportunists - not that this is a bad trait, it's one path to undertake that sometimes leads to victory, and "all is fair in love and war".
The fact that you have had normal relations with other nations of the world until this point proves nothing. It is my belief that you are opportunists, and as such, you will strike at and betray other nations if the proper time for you comes and you weigh the risk to be worth taking.

"dishonest" - nope - not at all. We have been very honest in this thread.

You have lied and told half-truths on several points, and we have demonstrated that very clearly IMHO, along with some screenshots.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by Beta

Quote:

...but I assure you that we've done our thinking over this a thousand times and we are convinced that removing Vox from our continent, one way or another, is in GS's best overall interest - and we act according to our best overall interest ....

BINGO!

So what? Don't you?

[Beta]

OK - as to the honesty issue- here is the excerpt from The Vox Controli Forum - the GS FA thread, regarding our peace proposal to GS.

------------------------------------

Jon - agreed. I think you should take over with GS. You cut the early deal with them on the border. 'I suspect you will have better luck with them than I.'

(paraphrased from an earlier post)

I say contact them soon - with all the points mentioned so far:

- they get south Estonia
- we gift Dissidentville - I can do that this turn
- we do a public mea culpa - I will do that.
- we post a public non-agression pact with GS into the next era. Jon - you should do that.
- we will rpovide engineering in approx 15 turns.
-we provide our free tech going into the next era.
-we will not attack Inchon
-we are allowed to safely evacuate all our troops from South Estonia
- this includes Harry and his gang trapped on the mountains in the SE. As a show of good will - they will move down to tha plains where they will be easy targets. (they are all down to 1 and 2 HP's as it is). Also - they will need to move one worker to allow them to get by.
-and ask if they want to move Inchon - maybe two tiles south. They will still get the prime enhanced grassland tiles - but our cultural borders will not be overlapping.

Note that GS did offer peace back up this turn. I have the save - and will hold onto it for the full 24 hours so you can commence discussion.

I will send a quick note to MSS that I have been relieved of my duties as FAM to GS and that you will be in charge of the negotiations.

-----------------------

And from the same thread - a couple posts later as it was an after-thought on our part.

"I also think we should tell GS we forfeit any access to iron until the new era. Tell them we will not be getting involved in any Bobian war. We do not need iron. It should satisfy them that they we mean no harm."

------------------------

Inchon was attacked after GS landed on North Estonia, which was after this proposal was tabled. The troops around Inchon were actually trying to vacate the south. With Inchon there it was difficult to do. It was also why the one group moved to the diagonal tile from Inchon, as opposed to due south of it. So on the next turn - they could move to the non-adjacent tile on their way home.


PS - any member of Vox can verify this.

[Shiber]

I still don't understand how this makes this thread not a slander campaign.
And perhaps I've missed something (I admit that I can't quite find my way in this post), but I don't see how you've addressed the honesty issue either.

[Aeson]

... said the AI nation

"Allah demands that we relieve you of the burden of $GET3 or our $UNIT4 will enlighten your infidel population."

$GET3 = "Dwelling on this continent"
$UNIT4 = "War Chickens"

---------------------

Why is it ok to insult GS' skill in diplomacy? Surely insulting a team based on the skill they show in managing game mechanics wouldn't be acceptable.

There is something quite wrong with this thread (the basic premise, the responses and reactions to it, ect.), and quite wrong with the way this game is progressing in general, IMO.

[nbarclay]

Edit: This cross-posted with Beta's last couple messages.

Beta, every word you say along such lines drives another nail in your team's coffin, at least so far as your chances of any kind of truce until you are gone from the continent are concerned. You know as well as we do the lengths to which Vox went to decieve Gathering Storm in the turns leading up to your attack on us, whatever you try to sell to the rest of the world. And while trying to sell the rest of the world otherwise might play well with them, it plays horribly with us.

Do the words "Operation MacArthur" ring any bells? Vox staged an entire phoney landing (or allegedly planned landing) as a ruse to keep us from being all that concerned over their growing military strength. And the lies included not only what was said in the public forum but also private messages between our teams regarding Vox's plans. If, as Beta alleges, other nations do not see the treachery and deceit inherent in such manipulations, I can only wonder at how they can be so blind.

Master Zen asked what proof we would need that Vox has repented. The evidence of repentance comes in the form of changed behavior. Beta's ongoing efforts to twist the truth in an effort to turn world opinion against us are certainly not consistent with any kind of genuine repentance.

[nbarclay]

Aidun, the Treaty of Versailles has a lot to do with why we want Vox gone from our continent. Even under Beta's proposal (which, by the way, has been rendered somewhat obsolete by the recent capture of Elipolis), Vox would have lost about a third of its land compared with our original border treaty. The very history you cite shows how dangerous it can be to hurt an enemy while leving them sufficiently intact to hurt you later.

Nathan

[nbarclay]

There is one point I'd like to clarify. It is possible that I may have mishandled the diplomacy screen, accidentally leaving a peace treaty on the table after using it to check whether Vox had obtained horses and/or iron. Such an incident apparently occurred once before, at which time Jon Miller inquired about it and I explained what must have happened. However, the fact that such a thing had happened before, coupled with the fact that there had been no negotiations between the teams that even came halfway close to finalizing a treaty, should have been sufficient for Vox not to read too much into what they saw on their screen - at least certainly, without further verification. In any case, I do apologize to Vox if I made a mistake that led to confusion on their part.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Aeson
Why is it ok to insult GS' skill in diplomacy? Surely insulting a team based on the skill they show in managing game mechanics wouldn't be acceptable.

There is something quite wrong with this thread (the basic premise, the responses and reactions to it, ect.), and quite wrong with the way this game is progressing in general, IMO.

Aeson, I am terribly sorry if you took my post about the GS diplomacy as an insult. Especially because I hold you personally in a very high esteem. The VERY LAST thing I intended to was insulting GS. I was just being cruelly honest, trying to hint at what I believe were/are major faults of the GS diplomacy. Again - I sincerely apologize if it sounded like an insult.

Originally posted by nbarclay
Master Zen asked what proof we would need that Vox has repented. The evidence of repentance comes in the form of changed behavior. Beta's ongoing efforts to twist the truth in an effort to turn world opinion against us are certainly not consistent with any kind of genuine repentance.

Nathan, the "truth" and "evidence" are tricky stuff. What you saw as clearly hostile MIGHT have really been meant as a gesture of good will and "repentence", despite you not perceiving it as such. Honestly, what I have read in this thread is not enough for me to "decide" who's right - who's telling truth and who is twisting it (IF there is anyone DELIBERATELY twisting it, that is). Might be both ways.

So, considering that our private communications with Vox DID CLEARLY INDICATE they wanted to sign peace with you BEFORE all this happened, I am less than sure their "truth" is as twisted as you believe it is. I'm sorry I'm not at liberty to quote the correspondence, but it was not like "we just want to let you know, guys, that we would like to sign peace with GS". The notice about Voxes wishing to make peace with you was actually an EXPLANATION of their behaviour that made absolutely no sense otherwise.

The problem is that if I make my mind - for whatever reason - up and assume the other party is not honest with me, I tend to see whatever that party does... as dishonest, naturally - which is further fuelling my distrust and/or hatred... as if seeing through (potentially) twisting glasses...

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Beta

And from the same thread - a couple posts later as it was an after-thought on our part.

"I also think we should tell GS we forfeit any access to iron until the new era. Tell them we will not be getting involved in any Bobian war. We do not need iron. It should satisfy them that they we mean no harm."

While this offer may have been sincere and well-meaning, as I pointed out to Jon, Vox's history proves how little it is really worth. Vox's entire war effort against us was built around upgrading warriors to immortals. They even went so far as to pillage their own road so they could build warriors in their core and send them to Dissidentville for upgrade, leveraging their gold to make up part of the gap in production between their team and ours. If Vox would decide to doublecross us, all it would take to turn an army of warriors and spearmen into an army of immortals and pikemen would be gold and a chance to import iron for a single turn.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by nbarclay
While this offer may have been sincere and well-meaning, as I pointed out to Jon, Vox's history proves how little it is really worth. Vox's entire war effort against us was built around upgrading warriors to immortals. They even went so far as to pillage their own road so they could build warriors in their core and send them to Dissidentville for upgrade, leveraging their gold to make up part of the gap in production between their team and ours. If Vox would decide to doublecross us, all it would take to turn an army of warriors and spearmen into an army of immortals and pikemen would be gold and a chance to import iron for a single turn.

This is exactly what I was pointing at in my previous post. If you assume Vox are not honest with you (and can never ever be again - "because of their history"), you can never perceive their offers, however sincere they may be - as honest. They say: "we would forfeit ANY access to iron" (emphasis added). You hear: "we would not have any iron connected until we decide to attack you again". That's a vicious circle very difficult to break.