Peace process over: Bush folds like expected - Page 2

Edan · June 13, 2003, 14:04

Quote:

Originally posted by laurentius

So, do the pals have _every_ right to defend theirselves against oppression and occupation in other words against terror from the illegal settlers and IDF?

Explain to me how sending suicide bombers up to blow buses full of civilians helps the defense of the Palestinians. A most unique strategy of defense. Perhaps they're trying to confuse the enemy?

laurentius · June 13, 2003, 14:15

There are other means you know, like sniper attacks on IDF solders. I dont approve the attack on civilians but IDF is killing them too.
Explain to me why israel doesnt want to solve this problem, but is constantly keeping with their apartheid traditions. Who would have guessed that people who survived Hitlers terror would start their own lebensraum in just a few decades

Edan · June 13, 2003, 14:24

Quote:

Originally posted by laurentius Explain to me why israel doesnt want to solve this prob

It does. That is why, despite the risks inherent, a wide majority (70%) continue to want to go back to the negotiating table and discuss a two state solution with an exchange of the territories and setting up a Palestinian state living side by side with Israel in exchange for that state putting an end to the terrorism.

In contrast, 80% of the Palestinians say that a state of Palestine cannot coexist with Israel.

laurentius · June 13, 2003, 14:31

Yeah, and you know what? The israelies have all chances for hihg education- pals dont. I dont find those results so surprising. Hamas is generally the only social-security many pals have, especially those living in concentr--erh refugee camps. Hamas provides them with islamic/propaganda-education and this is the result. How would you feel if you'd have to leave your home and virtually had no chances in life?

Velociryx · June 13, 2003, 14:31

It's ongoing feuds like this one that make me want to pull a line from "Aliens." We should just take off, and nuke the site from orbit. Light the candle big time, you know? You guys (both sides) obviously care more about keeping the score even than getting serious about peace, so why not? Let's expand the conflict to a global level and leave it to the cockroaches, eh?

-=Vel=-

Ned · June 13, 2003, 15:04

Obviously, the Arabs have to crack down on terrorist groups themselves if they ever want Israel to stop. Negotiations between the PA and Hamas will not work if the PA are ultimately unwilling to use force if the negotiations fail. The excuse that the PA is tootless does not wash with Egyptian muscle just across the border that can move in to help if asked.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the Israeli attacks began after Abbas said he would not use force against Hamas?

Bush's weakness on these terrorist groups and what the PA must do to stop terror is part of the problem. Powell yesterday said more of the same "Abbas must do more to stop terrorism" crap we have been hearing from Bush's administration from its first days. The wording needs to be a lot stronger - more like the wording Bush used in connection with the Taliban two years ago.

Hamas need an ultimatum from Abbas.

Giancarlo · June 13, 2003, 15:22

Abbas needs to start showing an iron fist because this terrorism has to stop and it has to stop now. The world is just sick of this **** including Europe. Israel will have to make concessions and so will the Palestinians.

Bush needs to tell Powell to beef up his words saying "Mr. Abbas if you don't crack down on terrorism this cannot go foward. There isn't any room here for failure. Go after the terrorist groups now!"

laurentius · June 13, 2003, 15:28

Look,abbas is not controlling the hamas and al-aqsa factions. So my suggestion is that isreal should try to negotiate with them instead of Abbas. Their demands may not be so unreasonable you know.

Giancarlo · June 13, 2003, 15:36

Laurentius, if you consider wiping Israel off the face of the earth not unreasonable.. you have judgement problems.

laurentius · June 13, 2003, 15:45

What I understod was that hamas rejected Abbas's truce with israel because Abbas dint mention Jerusalem as palestinian capital + other reasons. I dont suppose it's unreasonable to want your share of the city thats sacred to both of them. Also, pals have literally lost everything, their homeland, future, and dignity. I think they have every right to hate american backed facist israel.

Giancarlo · June 13, 2003, 15:47

Laurentius: You aren't understanding what I am saying. Hamas and the Al Aqsa militia both want Israel destroyed completely.

And you call Israel fascist? Give me a ****ing break.. the Palestinian militias are nothing but terrorists who deserve to be tried for the crimes in a court of law.

The Palestinians had several times to accept state hood and why didn't they?

laurentius · June 13, 2003, 15:51

Why not? Now I'm no expert but i can think of 3 reasons. Netanyahu, late 90-ties, Sharon, mass-murderer- provicateur of the current intifada. Also no doubt Arafat is to blame too for many things.

GePap · June 13, 2003, 16:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Fez
The Palestinians had several times to accept state hood and why didn't they?

Several? They had one: 1948, and the fact is Fez that if you had been a palestinains then, you of all people would have been out getting a gun to kill israelis.

And I don;t consider 2000 a serious chance for Palestinain statehood, but a serious chance to have continued the Oslo process.

Edan: If I remember correctly, this violce begun in spet 2000, not March 2002. If you cna tell me that since sept 2000 the majority of suicide attacks against Israel were carried out by Fatah, go ahead (I don;t think you can), and Israel begun bombing PLA installation in 2000,. They finally invaded in 2002, but they were using F-16's and Apaches to atatck PLA facitlieis since under Barak.

Quote:

In contrast, 80% of the Palestinians say that a state of Palestine cannot coexist with Israel.

Maybe is Pals had ever seen the benefits of a two state solution, they might want ti. As of yet, they have seen very little (they had an small eopcnomic boom in the early 90's, then stagnated, and the settlements and closing continues unabbaeted during that whole time.

Giancarlo · June 13, 2003, 16:00

Quote:

Originally posted by laurentius
Why not? Now I'm no expert but i can think of 3 reasons. Netanyahu, late 90-ties, Sharon, mass-murderer- provicateur of the current intifada. Also no doubt Arafat is to blame too for many things.

I have always said that both sides are equally at fault for the current mess.

chequita guevara · June 13, 2003, 16:03

Must you italicize the post? Italics are hard to read and should only be used for emphasis.

chequita guevara · June 13, 2003, 16:07

Quote:

Originally posted by elijah
I think we British should sort it out, we have experience with the analogous Northern Ireland situation, and perhaps a little more dexterity than the Americans.

One, this whole mess is your fault in the first place. If you bastards hadn't carved up the Middle East, if you bastards hadn't promised European Jewry someone else's land, if you bastards hadn't picked al-Hussein as mufti of Jerusalem to try and buy off his family, if you bastards hadn't abandoned the Palestinians to their fates the world wouldn't be in this mess now!!!!!!!

Two, it was the American Mitchell plan that brought peace to Northern Ireland.

So shove it up your Brit arses.

laurentius · June 13, 2003, 16:10

Although that's not excatly what I'm saying is it Fez. I'm saying that you just cant start your own utopia in basis of being the master race/religion. I have always regarded jews as a people that have exeptional potent in science and philosophy. Therefore I find it very odd and stupid that they havent been able to come up with more sophisticated nation as it is. Whats with the militarization? Is this all that jewish people can come up with, not to mention considering themselves as the master-race above arab-palestinians. Most of all, I blame not the sephardite, but american and russian emigrants such as Sharon, son of stalin. Because thats where the ignorance and the attitude of not respecting minorities comes from, in other words power politics. Democratic centralism, whatever you wish.

Edan · June 13, 2003, 16:16

Quote:

Originally posted by laurentius . Most of all, I blame not the sephardite, but american and russian emigrants such as Sharon, son of stalin.

Sharon was born in the middle east.

laurentius · June 13, 2003, 16:19

Well, most of his supporters are old stalinists, so who cares. Stalin wasnt russian either you know, he was born in georgia.

Ps. His parents were russian, no? Thats here he got his attitude.

laurentius · June 13, 2003, 16:27

Children's Song (Hebrew):
Red eleinu aviron
Kach otanu la marom
Nitofef al rosh eitzim
Veh niyeh ke tziporim.

Children's Song (Translation):
Airplane, come get us
Take us up to the sky
We will fly above the trees
And be like the birds.

Parody (Hebrew):
Red eleinu aviron
Kach otanu le Levanon
Nilachem bishvil Sharon
Venachzor betoch aron.

Parody (Translation):
Airplane, come get us
Take us to Lebanon
We will fight for (Ariel) Sharon
And return in a coffin.

Just change levanon/Lebanon to gaza and west bank..

Lawrence of Arabia · June 13, 2003, 17:07

Its none of our problem. Maybe after enough blood has been spilled, they will come to their senses, but if they don't, its their own fault. Neither side wants peace and as long as the people believe that violence is worth more then peace, then violence will continue. A peace treaty will not work as long as the people do not whole heartedly believe in it.
The US should also stop giving arms and money to Israel. They are fully capable of defending themselves.

chequita guevara · June 13, 2003, 17:16

It's our problem because we give money and arms o Israel. Every bullet made in the US, that comes from a gun made in the US, that's mounted on a tank made in the US that kills a Palestinian kids recruits another member to al-Qaeda.

Velociryx · June 13, 2003, 17:20

Thus, the parking lot solution. Let 'em meet up after school, slug it out (clubs only....no technological superiority), winner take all.

One glorious afternoon of the bloodshed everybody's so fond of, and then it's decided.

-=Vel=-

Whaleboy · June 13, 2003, 17:24

Quote:

Yeah, that one only took you guys 800 years to solve

About 30 IIRC, which is less time than the Israel/Palestine situation.

In any case t!t for tat is simply not working, I see no progress since Sharon started this whole sorry debacle over 2 years ago.

chequita guevara · June 13, 2003, 17:26

Quote:

Originally posted by elijah
About 30 IIRC, which is less time than the Israel/Palestine situation.

Yeah, but you didn't solve it. We Americans solved it for you. Mitchell Plan!!!!

Whaleboy · June 13, 2003, 17:31

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Abbas needs to start showing an iron fist

Im sure he would if he had any security forces to speak of after being bombed by the Israelis. Its like asking a man to run a marathon after you amputated his legs!

Quote:

I have always said that both sides are equally at fault for the current mess.

In terms of "you kill us, we kill you", you are correct, and I want someone to take the high ground and start thinking, and say "no", next time the military plans an attack. Israel, being the "democracy", the nationstate, the richer nation, should be the mature party imo, while Palestinians are too disparate to be represented, its up to Israel. Also, in terms of who, historically, kicked this off, I'm afraid I must bite the bullet and say Israel.

With regards to your previous post, I can only speak for myself, but when Bush/Blair/Sharon etc start doing things that I approve of, and believe to be more productive, long sighted, I will state my approval and respect them for it. Thus far, they havent done so, thus I shall judge accordingly. That does not mean I am biased, or somehow, irrationally, hate Bush & co. For example, if it were not for this violence, I would be praising Bush for the peace plan, if it was working, especially after going to war on an Arab state.

Whaleboy · June 13, 2003, 17:34

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Yeah, but you didn't solve it. We Americans solved it for you. Mitchell Plan!!!!

Yeah, ok, you got me there

. However, he was perhaps the proverbial grease to the wheels. I have no doubt the good friday agreement would have happened nonetheless, just not on Good Friday 1998! Besides, the progress since, including the preliminary moves to disarmament by the IRA has been down to the cooperation between the British and Irish governments, and (most of to a degree) the political parties in Ulster.

Lawrence of Arabia · June 13, 2003, 17:41

Quote:

It's our problem because we give money and arms o Israel. Every bullet made in the US, that comes from a gun made in the US, that's mounted on a tank made in the US that kills a Palestinian kids recruits another member to al-Qaeda.

Which is exactly why I said

Quote:

The US should also stop giving arms and money to Israel. They are fully capable of defending themselves.

Whaleboy · June 13, 2003, 17:45

I think when/if there is a viable Palestinian state, the US should switch funding to that state, reduce Israels and increase New Palestines, or at least give them equal funding.