How did the area of Europe advance so quickly?

FrostyBoy · June 14, 2003, 04:31

I want to keep this on the off topic forum, but most of us are civers here, and we all know that playing a european civ can limit your ability to grow, as quick as, say the American Indians or the Aboriginies even!

So what was it exactly that gave the Europeans the edge?

I'm asking this because I believe that the game Civilization needs to change dramatically in order to function better (and I also think that would be more fun too - this is for those "but real doesn't mean fun" type of ppl

)

Bereta_Eder · June 14, 2003, 04:32

competition?

FrostyBoy · June 14, 2003, 04:33

Yeah ok, if you believe that to be the answer, be more descriptive, explain the process.

Bereta_Eder · June 14, 2003, 04:34

i'm too bored now

FrostyBoy · June 14, 2003, 04:45

Go to bed

Lancer · June 14, 2003, 04:58

The industrial revolution centered on the north sea, and spred in ever decreasing circles from there.

England, Holland, and Scandinavia experienced the first of it. The industrial revolution can best be defined in its early stages by the amount of railroad track per capita, or square mile or something. I've a book on the spread of this all important revolution somewhere, I'll hunt it up tommorrow if I have time. It has figures on RR capacity.

Civ spreads sci in a manner that isn't realistic in the least. For instance, potery was never a guarded secret, niether was most early sci. If you see a wheel you can wrap your mind around it. Sci spreads, rapidly. Technical capicity...happens very slowly.

notyoueither · June 14, 2003, 04:59

Good question. You will find many different answers.

Successive waves of invaders bringing new ideas and social upheaval?

The patronage of princes and potentates?

The Protestant Work Ethic?

The availability of classical knowledge kept safe by Muslim states?

Even the Black Death as a leveler and an impetus for change may be claimed by some.

Europe's is an exceedingly complex story. I doubt there is a simple answer.

Lancer · June 14, 2003, 05:02

Rough seas actually.

Bereta_Eder · June 14, 2003, 05:08

I thinkk it was simply the competition. Too many people in a pathetic small peninsula of the eurasian continent fighting eachother all the time for land/resources/influence.

Staying alive can motivate pretty revolutionary things.

it's not always through war, sometimes it's competition pure and simple between countries for prestige/influence etc.

And contrary to what some may believe the echange of ideas wal always very easy in Europe between different city-states, kingdoms, states.

Bereta_Eder · June 14, 2003, 05:10

The turning point for what we are seeing today was definitely the industrial revolution but also the french revolution as well as the development of socialistic values.

Lancer · June 14, 2003, 05:26

Rough seas. The technical acumen required to overcome the local ocean conditions developed the technical capacity of the people. For hundreds of years the europeans struggled to overcome the seas, and by doing so learned to overcome. While other peoples lived with their surroundings, europeans learned to shape them. In doing so they became the first technical people, and this is how so few people spread colonialism through the world, defeating all comers. It wasn't natural for the people of India to form a line and spew bullets like a machine while suffering under and overcoming enemy fire. This is how the Brits and other euros came to consider themselves superior, they had in hundreds of years developed foundation based in technical matters that it would take hundreds of years for other peoples to assimilate into their make up. You could give these peoples the sci, but they could never use it like they can in Civ. You could fire guns at american indians, and they will learn to fire them, but not to build them. That's technical. Though they had themselves developed many skills, they lived their lives without the technical challenges of communication by sea.

It's no accident that the Brits controled the sea. They were more challenged by it. To them it just made sense to turn their ships of the line into fast firing artillery platforms while the French and particularly Spanish focused more on bringing lots of extra men and boarding. The solution came first to the Brits because it had to. Same with all big gun dreadnaughts. Seperated by a couple of hundred years but in each case the Brits got there first. No accident, but a technical imperative.

You could show such developments to other europeans and they could follow suit. You could show it Snoopy to your aborigines and they would worship it. The foundation of technical understanding is lacking.

Bereta_Eder · June 14, 2003, 05:29

Spanish were there long before the Brits even knew what was happening.

Lancer · June 14, 2003, 05:34

To early ships capable of exploration, not to the industrial revolution. The Brits took the greater numbers of Spanish apart with their ships/ artilery platforms, assisted in the case of the armada by the weather and superior tactics. The Spanish with their larger crews got blown to bits.

Francis Drake, remember?

Bereta_Eder · June 14, 2003, 05:36

yeah but they were nt there first as you said. And britain in general has a very mediocre role in the advancement of europe compared to continental countries. island people you know

Lancer · June 14, 2003, 05:40

Greek philosophers were not presented by the towering waves of the North Sea, though they did come up with some fancy bullshit.

The Brits were the first into the machine age. I'm not going to argue about this Paiktis, it just is, as they sky is blue.

Bereta_Eder · June 14, 2003, 05:41

Yes the industrial revolution was very imprtant I said so myself. But it was quickly passed on to other countries.

Bereta_Eder · June 14, 2003, 05:43

Greek philosophers were forgotten at the middle ages by all apart from the Byzantines (who regarded them as peagans) and the Arabs. The revival of ancient writing in 18th and 19th century was done by the brits the french the italians hell even the russians and the germans caught up on it.

Lancer · June 14, 2003, 05:46

Whatcha drinkin Paiktis? I have some Italian Chainti.

Good wine, it has a cork, not a twist top.

Bereta_Eder · June 14, 2003, 05:47

I think a corner stone was french moral ethics the lay out of fundamental human rights.

brit contribution apart from the industrial revolution was mainly in the field of economy. not so much in philosophy/thinking/ breaking new ground.

and of course a turning point was also the october revolution. not in itself but the aftermath and what it injected to the social conscience.

Bereta_Eder · June 14, 2003, 05:48

Lancer you're too caught up about britain (being american/canadian/assorted species) and it is my duty to open your eyes.

Lancer · June 14, 2003, 05:55

Nary not so my leftist Greek friend. I'm not caught up about Britain. I don't feel much afinity to technical people actually. I seek the comfortable riot of a friendly poor homey untechnical culture.

Screw being a machine, though so many take such pride in it. I have the southern european take on work. Sothern euros work to live, northern euros live to work.

Something very wrong w/ the latter.

No, regarging history I'm impressed with artillery. Arty did more to form the history of nations than a thousand fluffy philosiphers spouting high sounding horsepoop.

Bereta_Eder · June 14, 2003, 05:58

I seriously doubt it.

And why would you identify britain with artilerry is beyond me.

if one nation prevailed in warfare technology in europe that was germany. if you want to be proud about it....

and germany didnt change history that much.

Lancer · June 14, 2003, 06:01

"if one nation prevailed in warfare technology in europe that was germany. if you want to be proud about it....
and germany didnt change history that much."

Germans would like you to believe this. They build a couple Bismarks and WooHoo. A super rail gun and watch out...

The stupid bastards marched into Russia without winter clothes.

Ribannah · June 14, 2003, 06:04

The single most important factor is nature: the climate, the flora, the fauna, the seasons, the rich soil fed by many rivers. All of this changed much in their favour since the first human civilizations appeared elsewhere.

Bereta_Eder · June 14, 2003, 06:05

germans would like me and others to forget it. actually it is the past.

one country managed to bring a whole world against her, cant do that without good technology.

if england and germany were alone face to face, the UK would be speaking german now loud and clear. so much for its technological "advantage".

the arms technology no matter how essential is not the main driving force of history.

Lancer · June 14, 2003, 06:11

The Germans remind me of my brother. He has a fairly advanced math brain. Figure out all sorts of stuff. Yet he has no sense, and hasn't the sense to listen to someone who does. Thats how the Germans ended up at war with overwhelming power. Don't give this to them as an atribute. They had beaten continental powers remember. They were at war with only Great Britian. Exactly the circumstance you put forward. Yet they had no sense. They could put a missile on London, a jet in the air, but not a warm coat on the guys it all rode on, get it? Germans are really smart, but stupid as they come.

Bereta_Eder · June 14, 2003, 06:11

the foundations for the nation were made because of the french revoluytion. the present code of respect for human rights also comes from france.

i think those two are important.

britain did miracles to the economic thinking, but it was a different school from the europeans. which is better is a matter of opinion.

buthuman rights and countries as we know them have become the most important aspect of europe today, even though the latter is fading away just as city-states faded away to kingoms and they faded away to nations and nations will fade away to supranational entities as is the EU.

Actually the EU is the first "country" of the next millenia!

Bereta_Eder · June 14, 2003, 06:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Lancer
The Germans remind me of my brother. He has a fairly advanced math brain. Figure out all sorts of stuff. Yet he has no sense, and hasn't the sense to listen to someone who does. Thats how the Germans ended up at way with overwhelming power. Don't give this to them as an atribute. They had beaten continental powers remember. They were at war with only Great Britian. Exactly the circumstance you put forward. Yet they had no sense. They could put a missile on London, a jet in the air, but not a warm coat on the guys it all rode on, get it? Germans are really smart, but stupid as they come.

well only really stupid people would come up with an arian nazi racist ideology anyway. i dont disagree with what you say, one can be a "genious" and real stupid at the same time. europe acted in cooperation against them, thus proving smarter.

as for italy, dont ask, 2 world wars, 2 times on the wrong side

but renescane was grand even though it got a starting kick from the fleeting byzantines from constantinople.

Bereta_Eder · June 14, 2003, 06:19

oh and germans had "only" captured half of france the little states in western europe and the little states in the balkans. not russia for example. and even then they were leaving at yugoslavia and greece because of the "Terrorist" attacks against them

UK would have folded if not for US intervantion. russia would not.

Bereta_Eder · June 14, 2003, 06:24

anyway this is just a parenthesis in the grand scheme of european things, even thoughits pretty recent.

but one step back two forward, look at france and germany now! best of friends. hell if they can do it, greece and turkey can do it too. and others as well. this is how the world goes forward.

and were it not for the disastrous ww2 EU would never havebeen formed.

even though i suspect such a war was inevitable anyway unless an EU was formed which could not unless such a war happened.

sometimes you just have to think if there isnt a social engineering experiment going on and that if you look closley to its ingedients and dynamics you could be able to tell the future.