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Old June 16, 2003, 23:35   #151
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Quote:
Originally posted by Colon
Obviously it wasn't a driving force for the Chinese to explore beyond the coast of Africa. As I already said, the primary reason for the Chinese to set up expeditions was to demonstrate their power and there wasn't any compelling reason to continue with it once the emperor's attention shifted elsewhere.
To whom? Granted, there were some European observers on Cheng Ho's fleet, but neighbouring countries wouldn't know about the voyages, right? A demonstration of might with no audience is completely worthless. Hence, that cannot be it.

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The Chinese elite was very suspicious of traders and their activities and they weren't shy of banning their business and grabbing their property.
Not true. Businesses weren't encouraged per se, but they weren't frowned upon, either. A lot of foreign trading had began as early as the Han dynasty through the Silk Road, that's when forts were established to guard against barbarian raiders, mainly the Huns.

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Originally posted by Colon
The fact that maritime trade by Chinese was outlawed is telling IMO.
What? When?

Quote:
Originally posted by Colon
PS: think of Marco Polo. Why did an European made use of trade routes opened up by the Mongols to explore the east, while a Chinese didn't do anything similar to explore the west?
That seems to be two different things. Europeans were interested in Asian cultures and such, don't forget Marco Polo spent 13 years in the courts of Kublai Khan. The Chinese weren't exactly interested in European cultures in the same degree that Marco Polo did. However, that doesn't mean that Chinese dynasties weren't interesed in the money businesses could generate.
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Old June 16, 2003, 23:36   #152
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Originally posted by JohnT
" I think it is significant that the majority of the early explorers, who initiated Europe's long sea-borne invasion of the world, were citizens of the mediterranean,"

Actually, the early explorers were Portugese, which is not, last time I looked, a Med. country.
Technically, you're right, but the Portugese were players in the mediterranean trade route competition along with Venice and Genoa, and so from a commercial point of view Portugal was a mediterranean country.
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Old June 16, 2003, 23:37   #153
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Chinese thought the Eurocoms were savages. And rightly so.
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Old June 16, 2003, 23:47   #154
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Re: Re: Re: How did the area of Europe advance so quickly?
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Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Yeah, that's why its population fell in half from the end of the Song to the early Ming dynasty. The plague was as devastating in China as it was in Europe. Population density under the late Song wasn't higher than in most of western europe, if you can trust the estimates.
What plague? There wasn't any plague in China. Famines, sure, and lots of people got killed by Mongol hordes, sure, but no plagues.
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Old June 16, 2003, 23:51   #155
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I think that the reason that China failed to expand is the inward looking perfectionism of the Confuscian philosophical system that dominated Chinese society. You might also take into account that after 1200 AD China was ruled by successive waves of foreigners. Each of these dynasties required some time to make China theri home, and military dictatorships also twend to squash innovation. Wasn't there a period during which the imperial government actually went about book burning en mass?
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Old June 16, 2003, 23:52   #156
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Originally posted by Ted Striker
Chinese thought the Eurocoms were savages. And rightly so.
Maybe there was a certain "air" about them?
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Old June 16, 2003, 23:56   #157
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Originally posted by DaShi
Actually, Christian-Judeo thought played a crucial role in the development of scientific progress in Europe. While to the layman of today this may seem ridiculous given the popular impression of modern religious fanatics, Christian thought is a keystone to the European mindset and development. Once it was determined that God can be understood and so on the universe itself, early scientists (ie. religious philosphers) once again began to speculate about the nature of their surroundings. This was a step that was lost in most of the Eastern world thanks to Budhism and similar philosophies which preached that the world is not real and not worth being understood.
I concur with Colon on this. Since the Renaissance Judeo-Christianity was the main resistance to scientific development. Copernicus didn't dare to publish his theory until he's on his deathbed. The Inquisition burned Bruno at stake and forced Galileo to recant. Darwin wasn't even a Christian, and IIRC Newton didn't do his work for Jesus.
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Old June 17, 2003, 00:03   #158
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Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
I think that the reason that China failed to expand is the inward looking perfectionism of the Confuscian philosophical system that dominated Chinese society.
If the reigning emperor were to buy into this silliness, yes, then the country would turn inward and close its doors. This unfortunately happened a lot more often since the Ming dynasty when the Confuscian school became more reactive and even metaphysical.

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Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
You might also take into account that after 1200 AD China was ruled by successive waves of foreigners. Each of these dynasties required some time to make China theri home, and military dictatorships also twend to squash innovation.
The Mongol rule lasted 89 years (the Yuan dynasty), which was succeeded by the Ming dynasty, which was kicked over by the Manchus, and eventually overthrown by the Nationalists. Though the real military dicatorship was only the Mongols - the Manchus were a lot more clever and Machiavellian.

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Wasn't there a period during which the imperial government actually went about book burning en mass?
Yeah, that was the Qin dynasty though, some time in the BCE's.
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Old June 17, 2003, 00:08   #159
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According to who? IIRC, Joseph Needham says something entirely differently.
I haven't read his book yet, but I often see him referenced in other books on Chinese history. I'm not sure if it was his work that others have recently brought to light or if new information has become available. But I saw some of the evidence in a documentary that the Chinese developed cannons first (and why not, first to gunpowder) but I guess they didn't figure out how to produce more effective cannonry and that technology was essentially disgarded.
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Old June 17, 2003, 01:09   #160
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I seriously doubt it.

And why would you identify britain with artilerry is beyond me.

if one nation prevailed in warfare technology in europe that was germany. if you want to be proud about it....
and germany didnt change history that much.
Actually, I wouldn't discount the French on the matter of military advances. Look how many military terms are French in origin, yet used by Germans, English, Americans, Russians etc.
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Old June 17, 2003, 01:21   #161
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Originally posted by Berzerker

Hersh -

Not the Europeans, but thanks for adding to the crappola.
Those large 8m cannons the Ottomans used in 1453 in the siege of Constantinoples were designed and built by a hungarian gunsmith in the service of the Sultan. IIRC he was carrying the good muslim name of Urban.
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Old June 17, 2003, 01:37   #162
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So he was a Muslim, wasn't that my point? Plus, I understand the Muslims made an important improvement using brass I believe.
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Old June 17, 2003, 01:37   #163
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Re: Re: Re: Re: How did the area of Europe advance so quickly?
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Originally posted by Urban Ranger

What plague? There wasn't any plague in China. Famines, sure, and lots of people got killed by Mongol hordes, sure, but no plagues.
ehm... right, it just originated there, most likely.

A little googling:

"The great pandemic of plague, known in Europe as the Black Death, is thought to have begun in China in the early 1330s. Reliable chronicles tell of an outbreak of the plague in China, beginning in 1331. Sources in Latin, Arabic, and Chinese tell of numerous natural disasters such as floods and earthquakes. These events might have destroyed the habitats of the plague-bearing rodents, forcing them into contact with other rodent populations and thus spreading their fleas (11). By the 1350s, two-thirds of China's population lay dead (12)."

http://www.american.edu/projects/man...ED/BUBONIC.HTM

The 2/3rds estimate is likely exaggerated, but so are most estimates for Europe. We have accounts in regional history of 4000 dead in a city that had no more than 2000 people, for example. But with the plague breaking out of central asia, why should china be spared? And it was part of the factors weakening Yuan rule.

"In China the outbreaks of the plague caused massive death rates and economic chaos, and contributed to the collapse of the Mongol (Yuan) Dynasty 14 years later."

http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/sc...attuta/Battuta's_Trip_Ten.html
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Old June 17, 2003, 01:38   #164
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So he was a Muslim, wasn't that my point?
That may be many things, but not a comeback.
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Old June 17, 2003, 01:42   #165
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I heard the Plague originated along the Silk Road - Western China - where people had some immunity. But the disease moved along trade routes east and west, so I don't know why the Chinese would have been missed. There's evidence of caucasions living along the Silk Road, but from several thousand years ago, maybe 1000 bc.
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Old June 17, 2003, 01:44   #166
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That may be many things, but not a comeback.
I said Muslims produced those cannons and you found the proof, thx.
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Old June 17, 2003, 01:45   #167
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Old June 17, 2003, 01:54   #168
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"Urban" is not a Muslim name?
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Old June 17, 2003, 01:58   #169
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Look, there were like 8 popes by the name of Urban! How much more obvious can irony get?
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Old June 17, 2003, 02:14   #170
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Ah, I don't keep up on the names of popes, but "Urban" does sound quite familiar.

Quote:
In 1452 Mohammed II completed his preparations unhindered. He laid much trust in the ability of modern artillery and employed a Hungarian gunfounder, called Urban, to cast him a siege artillery of seventy guns. Another major part of Mohammed II's preparations was to contruct a fortress at the narrowest point of the Bosporus, called Rumeli Hisari, with which he could blockade the sea-straight.
According to a Muslim historian, Mohammed designed the guns (for what that's worth) and had them cast. But "Urban" may have been the guy's name before conversion. If he was a Christian, why was he helping Muslims conquer a Christian city?
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Old June 17, 2003, 02:26   #171
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Mohammed had the idea to use very big siege guns, and building them was a technical challange. As for "why was he helping Muslims conquer a Christian city", quite simple: he had been unemployed.
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Old June 17, 2003, 05:24   #172
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"...he had been unemployed."

Quite. And over the next few hundred years there were to be many more unemployed European weaponsmiths and the like hired into the service of the Sultan, because they lacked the ability to produce this stuff themselves.
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Old June 17, 2003, 07:35   #173
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I wouldn't overestimate Mongol raids. Egypt or (North) Africa wasn't ran over by them, and it was and is on the same level as other Arab grounds. Poland was ran over by Mongols and later it was doing pretty well, better than western states in many things, until half of XVII century.
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Old June 17, 2003, 07:42   #174
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Since the Renaissance Judeo-Christianity was the main resistance to scientific development.
This always baffled me, what do the jews have to do with this? Judaism had no authority .
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Old June 17, 2003, 08:35   #175
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Originally posted by Urban Ranger


I concur with Colon on this. Since the Renaissance Judeo-Christianity was the main resistance to scientific development. Copernicus didn't dare to publish his theory until he's on his deathbed. The Inquisition burned Bruno at stake and forced Galileo to recant. Darwin wasn't even a Christian, and IIRC Newton didn't do his work for Jesus.
hi ,

wake up , we allready had a culture with math , they just took our numbers , stein , shalosh , arba , etc , .... we allready could calculate a calender based on the moon and sun 3500 years before 632 , .....

so , to say that we where in the way of science , ..... till this very day the Israeli people and jews are among some of the best scientists of the world , ....

who do you think invented e=mc2 , ...

have a nice day
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Old June 17, 2003, 09:16   #176
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Originally posted by Urban Ranger
To whom? Granted, there were some European observers on Cheng Ho's fleet, but neighbouring countries wouldn't know about the voyages, right? A demonstration of might with no audience is completely worthless. Hence, that cannot be it.
The peoples living on the shores of Indian Ocean and the South China Sea make up quite a large audience I’d say. At one occasion they even captured a Ceylonese king and took him to China because he failed to acknowledge the supremacy of the emperor.
I don’t deny that trade took place during the expeditions but no durable maritime trade links were established. It was rendered impossible anyway as an imperial edict banned the construction of sea vessels 3 years after the last expedition took place. (in 1433) Whatever maritime trade happened afterwards was conducted by foreigners like the Portuguese and strictly regulated by the state. (although smuggling was widespread – but risking your life to sell goods isn’t exactly an optimal way to do business)

Quote:
Not true. Businesses weren't encouraged per se, but they weren't frowned upon, either. A lot of foreign trading had began as early as the Han dynasty through the Silk Road, that's when forts were established to guard against barbarian raiders, mainly the Huns.
Foreign trade was conducted by foreigners, not Chinese. Chinese weren’t even allowed to travel abroad because of an imperial edict issued in 1371.

Quote:
That seems to be two different things. Europeans were interested in Asian cultures and such, don't forget Marco Polo spent 13 years in the courts of Kublai Khan. The Chinese weren't exactly interested in European cultures in the same degree that Marco Polo did. However, that doesn't mean that Chinese dynasties weren't interested in the money businesses could generate.
True the Chinese (or more specifically, the bureaucrat elite) weren’t interested in other cultures or only in so far they came to pay tribute to the glory of the emperor.
And sure, the Ming emperors were interested in money, but taxation and extortion were the preferable means of getting it.
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Old June 17, 2003, 12:05   #177
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Quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger


I concur with Colon on this. Since the Renaissance Judeo-Christianity was the main resistance to scientific development. Copernicus didn't dare to publish his theory until he's on his deathbed. The Inquisition burned Bruno at stake and forced Galileo to recant. Darwin wasn't even a Christian, and IIRC Newton didn't do his work for Jesus.
Sigh, laymen.

This is far more complex. Religious thought isn't as simple as you make it out to be. That's why you can't understand it. None of these people developed their theories to oppose the Church. It was the way of thinking that the Church and, more specifically, religious philosophers helped propagate that contributed to the conclusions of Copernicus, Bruno, Galileo, and Darwin. Darwin, for example, was a devote Christians and was quite upset when his theories made the religious communities feel threatened. In Galileo's case, the Church actually believed him, but didn't feel that such information should be made public yet because they feared the reaction of the ignorant populace. In short, Judeo-Christian thought led to all these theories, but the result of these theories may not have been what the religious institutions intended.
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Old June 17, 2003, 12:08   #178
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The closing shot at Newton makes no sense either:

http://www.essaybank.co.uk/free_coursework/391.html

Quote:
Newton was without doubt a pious Christian, identifying God not just as a Creator and Preserver of His universe but as an Observer. A God that saw him swim in a tub on the Sabbath, heard him lie about a louse to a fellow scholar at Cambridge and could even perceive his unclean thoughts.1 Newton's commitment to Biblical scripture was always a theme underpinning his scientific writings. Throughout Newton's work his scientific assertions are given support by Biblical references. Newton suggests, for example, that the 'days' of the Creation may have been longer than the twenty-four hour period people are accustomed to, because the world may have been rotating more slowly. Thus a part of scripture that came under attack from natural philosophers is given scientific support by Newton. Similarly, comets are reinvested with religious significance: Newton sees comets as agents of God, used to maintain balance in the density of stars.
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Old June 17, 2003, 12:09   #179
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Re: Re: Re: How did the area of Europe advance so quickly?
Quote:
Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Stagnate, with its population tripling, its institutions changing radically in all areas, its economy growing strongly?
Rubbish.
Hardly. Durign the period between 500-1500AD, the European economies most certainly did not grow strongly and most certainly did not achieve the standard of living of the Roman Empire.

Institutions did not change radically enough to produce the development necessary to lift Europe out of its chaos.

What we do see is isolated cases of economic development coinciding with constant warfare.

[QUOTE] Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Yeah, that's why its population fell in half from the end of the Song to the early Ming dynasty. The plague was as devastating in China as it was in Europe. Population density under the late Song wasn't higher than in most of western europe, if you can trust the estimates.
[/QUOTE[
Whether half the population died off, or a quarter, or a third is irrelevant.

You cite the end of the Song to the beginning of the Ming dynasty, a period of about 100 years. During that time there was relatively short periods of chaos, but it was short-lived compared to the chaos that exist in Europe for centuries.

You also omit the massive population growths that occurred during the Ming and then the Ching dynasties.

You'll have to do a lot better if you want to argue that European civilization was on par with Chinese civilization between 500AD and 1500 AD.
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Old June 17, 2003, 12:58   #180
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Re: Re: Re: Re: How did the area of Europe advance so quickly?
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