Military Alliances in a Democracy

[Greetings]

Greetings.

In my current game (standard-size continents map, Regent level), I must decide whether or not make a military alliance.

The game: All civilizations, except England, are almost through the Middle Ages (still lacking military tradition, magnetism, economics, music theory, and free artistry).

The civs:

Me: Greek Democracy. I control the entire southern half of the continent, have the most territory, and have 4 luxuries within my borders (a monopoly in dyes) and am receiving 3 others through overseas trade. I also control all 3 sources of iron on the continent and 2 of the 3 sources of saltpeter.

England: Republic. Furious with me after an early war. They are a five city civ restricted to a small peninsula in the nortwestern portion of the continent. They have no access to any resources or luxuries and are pretty much doomed for the remaining part of the game.

Carthage: Monarchy. Polite towards me. They control the eastern third of the top half of the continent, and are the most powerful civ on the continent, having a huge army probably capable of obliterating me if I ever get on their bad side. They are my closest ally, and we have been trading luxuries and resources for most of the game.

Korea: Democracy. Annoyed with me after not giving in to some of their outrageous demands. They control the western portion of the top half of the continent, and have an average military compared to me. They have had one war against Carthage, in which no one gained a thing.

My question: I want to declare war on Korea to gain some cities, slow down their research, and reduce the size of their military. I know that I can only do this with the help of mighty Carthage. I can get Carthage in an alliance against Korea for very cheap (an RoP and and 10 gold I believe), and it would further improve our relationship. However, I'm not quite sure my democracy can stand 20 turns of war. My Hoplites are standing by ready to start my GA, and I am the only one capable of building knights. Korea can't build musketmen, but they have (at the minimum) 2 pikemen and a spearman in each of their cities. Carthage shares an extremely long border with Korea, and they might hog all the wealth after the war. What should I do?

[Jamski]

Simple - if you want a war, change government. Or stay in Democracy and beat them to Alpha Centauri

-Jam

[Greetings]

Thanks for the suggestions, Jamski.

I forgot to mention that i switched off spaceship and cultural victories, since it's my first regent game. I thought I'd get killed by the AI techwise, and I assumed that the AIs would build Wonders like crazy.

Also, I don't want switch governments at this time. I'm several turns away from Bach's (bought music theory from the Spanish, who are alone with America on another continent), Magellan's, and Sun Tzu's (surprised because the AIs usually built that first chance they could on warlord). I also don't want to fall behind and end up playing catch-up in technology.

Thanks again.

[Jamski]

Oh, well in that case... (The longer answer) ...If you don't want to switch governments, think if you really NEED to go to war now. Democracy is really designed to be a peacetime government, unless you can fight a war to win in 2 or 3 turns. However... don't worry about falling behind in tech by changing to Monarch (or Republic - that can be OK for a war too) as long as you can demand tech for peace after the war you should be OK. I reccommend you get Bach's and Sun Tzu's and then change to Democracy (eh?) I mean - attack during the period of anarchy (up to 6 turns if you're "lucky") and then select Democracy as your goverment. This gives you a few "free" turns without the war weariness kicking in.

Is that worth a try?

-Jam

[Greetings]

Ah.... changing from democracy to democracy. I never would have thought of that. Thanks, I'll try it.

[dexters]

Greetings, a few comments.

Jamski covered a lot of ground already. But a few things worth noting.

The difficulty level you play in is important. If you are chieftain, War Weariness is actually NOT as big a deal since more citizens are born content and thus, you can manage wars pretty well under democracy. My only advice for you is that if you're democracy and even republic, and especially if you are top dog, don't enter into MPPs. You don't need the AI's help, and they just get you into trouble with these long web of wars that can destroy you under democracy.

There is also the map factor. If you're in a map where you contral 5 or more luxuries (that means you can have at least 9 happy faces with markets) Democracy is a good choice. If you have less than 5 luxuries under your control, Republic is the better choice as you can survive the loss of a luxury and war weatiness better.

The key here, if you want to stay in democracy and still have to fight a war, keep your wars short. Wars that are declared on you will actually have negative war weariness the first few turns so all your cities will have increased happiness. It is therefore not a bad idea to try and goad your enemies into declaring war on you doing things to make them angry (ie: trade embargos, spying).

Most importantly view all luxury trades as strategic deals. Secure these trades by making sure your trading partner stays firmly on your side and defend them if they are being attacked by someone else. The last thing you want is to loose that luxury to another potentially hostile Civ because you're too timid to save your buddy.

[Jamski]

I have to say you've made the game harder for yourself by turning off the "easy" victory conditions. Its going to be a real grind going up against the AI civs, especially when they start getting Nationalism

-Jam

[Nor Me]

My advice is to go to war, stay in Democracy and sign the alliance with carthage.

The most important reason: You want all 20 turns of your GA in Democracy.

Although you may end up spending so much on entertainment to combat War Weariness that you don't get a convincing tech advantage out of your GA, in my opinion the advantage in building in outer cities with Democracy corruption levels is more important.

If you have 7 luxuries and marketplaces evrywhere important than war weariness won't hit you for a while. You should try and minimise losses (as if that wasn't obvious).

In my experience if you hit an AI civ hard enough then they start asking for peace and often get it. It's quite likely that Carthage will break the alliance and sign peace if the Koreans want it enough.
As you've described it, the Koreans will start losing cities to even a small force of Knights but any Carthaginian advance will be slower. I would imagine that you'd be O.K. in that either Carthage will sign peace relatively soon or you'll be able to eliminate the Koreans.

[Jamski]

The most important reason: You want all 20 turns of your GA in Democracy.

eh?

He's playing as Greeks attacking in the late middle ages. Its not likely that he gets a GA this way...

-Jam

[Greetings]

dexters, I am playing on Regent level. I have 4 luxuries within my borders and am receiving 2, not 3 (hit the wrong key in my first post) luxuries from trading with Spain and America.

Jamski, I actually assumed that switching off these victory conditions would help me. I thought that the AI would be so far ahead in tech that they would win the space race before I even made it into the Modern Era. I also turned off Cultural victory because I anticipated the AI would beat me to every Wonder (I still can't believe I got the Great Library). I left on Diplomatic win so I would have an easy win if things got too hectic (kind of cheap, but oh well).

Everyone's comments have been very helpful so far. I haven't gotten a chance to continue my game (graduation parties). I'll keep you updated on what happens.

[Greetings]

Nor Me, I thought about your idea and decided to go with that. You're probably right in assuming that Carthage will break the alliance early (it's happened too many times to me). I also want to get that GA soon before it's too late. Thanks.

[dexters]

Originally posted by Greetings
dexters, I am playing on Regent level. I have 4 luxuries within my borders and am receiving 2, not 3 (hit the wrong key in my first post) luxuries from trading with Spain and America.

If you're playing warmonger don't go democracy then.

Even if you lock in Spain and America through your war, that's still only 6 luxuries, 1 X 2, 2X2, 2X3 = 12 out of a possible 20 happy faces. The last 2 lux, with markets, give you 4 happy faces each.

Unless you have Sistine and JS Bachs and your core cities have temples, cathedrals, markets and Colosseums, go Republic and start a few wars around luxuries. Secure all 8 and you give yourself much more flexibility.

Also map size is important. If you're playing anything smaller than Large map, Democracy's corruption fighting advantage is greatly reduced. A well placed FP can make a Republic or even Monarchy just as good.

There was someone on this board, maybe it was Arrian, who even showed that they can rake in the cash under monarchy. You just need a large empire.

If I sound like I'm knocking on Democracy, I'm not. There's a time a place for it. It will make you very rich and you can conquer cities half a world away and with Courthouses and Police station under Democracy those cities can have relatively low corruption. But It's all about where your positioning is. 4 luxures +2 from trades isn't bad for democracy if you want to play a fairly builder game with a few strategic wars, but if you plan to go to war in the late game, with MPP, alliances, and trade embargos, the last thing you want to to get stuck in a web of MPP wars and then have one of your trading parters declare war on you because of an MPP.


Edit: Just a point of comparison. I'm my current huge map pangea game, I've been in a 30 turn war against 3 Civs. No War weariness problems because I got JS Bachs (lost Sistine to the Greeks), I have 7 local luxuries, 3 of which I gained control of during the war, I have markets in all my cities except the newly conquered ones, I temples and cathedrals to boot.

My lux slider is at 10%. War weariness IS beginning to hit though so I have to make peace soon. And because I have a tech lead, i trade my older techs to my allies for big $$$, I am making 600 gpt per turn at 90% science research.

[Greetings]

I stayed up until 2 playing Civ (on a Saturday night- I have no life I guess) and played up to the mid-industrial age.

I ended up signing a military alliance with Carthage. I moved my Hoplites in first to do some pillaging. My GA began after winning a battle against a warrior. I then moved in 10 knights from the South (our common border), 10 from the East (Carthage), and 6 from the West (ocean). On the 12th turn of the war, Carthage broke the alliance and signed a peace treaty with Korea. Korea had only 3 cities left, so I sued for peace, receiving 2 cities, 2 workers, and 3 gold. 20 turns later, I took Korea's remaining city.

In the Wonder race, I beat everyone to Sun Tzu's but lost Bach's by one turn.

War Weariness was not much of an issue until the last turn of the first war, when only 4 of my jungle cities went into disorder.

Later, I finished off England in a Cavalry v. Pikemen war.
Currently, I am about to end a war with Carthage, who demanded iron and dyes from me. My cavalry have taken all but 5 of their non-productive cities, and WW is really having a huge effect on my citizens' moods (despite having Universal Suffrage). I'm looking to the nice (though heavily defended) lands across the ocean.

Thanks for your suggestions.

[CerberusIV]

A thought about what to do next.


It only takes five turns of peace for WW to dissipate. If Carthage doesn't have contact with the overseas civs get peace, wait 5 turns then declare war and finish them off. If you do this before they can contact the overseas civs your reputation will not suffer.

If they have contact then you will have to wait 20 turns before you can go to war, unless you can provoke them into starting it.

Don't forget to pillage any resources they still control. You can probably get away with leaving units fortified on those tiles to stop them being reconnected. They may not ask you to leave if you are much stronger than them.

Welcome to the dark side!

[Greetings]

Unfortunately, Carthage did have contact with Spain and America, so I waited the full 20 turn to finish them off. I then rushed my palace between Korean and Carthaginian lands and sent most of my workers to rebuild.

Right now, I have 11 galleons (5 filled with infantry and 6 filled with cavalry) just outside the Spanish border. Spain is the weaker of the 2 remaining civs, so I decided to go after them first. Neither of them have replaceable parts yet or a decent railroad system. But..... there always has to be a problem. Spain and America have an MPP and an RoP, which is a bad thing. However, going to war would take away the need to care about my reputation. I would also have to continue on militarily, even if failing, since the diplomatic win wouldn't be possible.

I was wondering: does War Weariness increase if you are at war with 2 civs? If it doesn't, that wouldn't be too much of a problem (compared to the other possibility). If it does, that would mean I would have to make peace twice as fast.

Going to war would also mean that I would have to make peace with both countries on the same turn to prevent triggering their MPP again.

I'm thinking about waiting for motorized transportation, mobilizing for war, and pumping out a whole lot of tanks.
I'm pretty sure that the invasion force that I already have accumulated is certainly not enough.

Tips to get through this one would be greatly appreciated.

[CerberusIV]

I have never found that being at war with more than one civ increases WW so taking on both should not be worse than taking on one.

If most of their cities are defended by riflemen you either need to use a lot of artillery or wait for tanks. The more casualties you take to your units, the worse WW will get.

[dexters]

Actually, Rifles are fairly painless for Cavs to take down in Size < 12 city. Even Size > 12 is still doable. It's with the infantry defenders that Cavalry hit the brick wall offensively. Even then Infantry isn't invulnerable to a mass cavalry charge. It's just very very costly.

[Kingof the Apes]

In the Industrial age, Artillery is a must. With them it's possible to take a >12 size city with no casualties.

[dexters]

Arty's are too slow to be effective on a moving front. It's effective as a seige engine and for defense, but I find it impractical to hold back my offense to wait for my artillery, especially if it is a race between myself and an ally to grab cities.

That is why getting flight and not skipping it is important.With bombers you essentially have artillery units you can move to any point on the map in 1 turn.

[vmxa1]

Armies are my preferred way to bust a size 12 city, if I can not bombard it.

[trev]

I have no trouble fighting wars on democracy that extend for up to 25 turns or so, the secret is to minimise losses, and keep the enemy out of your territory. Enemy are kept out by blasting with artillery or their precursors to the red and then killing.

Likewise cities are captured via heavy bombardment, so losses of attacking armies are minimal. Also another advantage of this is the surviving atacking units end up being promoted to elite and then provide great leaders, which if used immediately can result in up to 4 in a turn in my experience, plenty for building armies or rushing improvements

[bongo]

CerberusIV , does WW disappear completely after 5 turns of peace? Have you done some testing or is it based on experience?

[trev]

War weariness I find is always civ specific, which means that you can make peace with 1 civ and declare war with another civ beginning the new war with zero war weariness. WW disappears immediately with peace and will reappear only if you return to war with the SAME civ within 20 turns

[bongo]

Your effective WW is the sum of WW of every civ whom you are at war with. A peace treaty will suspend your WW with that civ until next time war breaks out. While at peace, the suspended WW will decrease each turn. That's old news, to me it is What I want to know is how fast the WW shrinks in peace time, and also if it is possible at all to bring down WW during war.