Vox Public Announcement - Page 3

Arrian · June 19, 2003, 08:56

I still want to know why you guys moved onto the flats, Beta. Why not tell? It's in the past now.

-Arrian

Wittlich · June 19, 2003, 10:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
I still want to know why you guys moved onto the flats, Beta. Why not tell? It's in the past now.

-Arrian

Since that situation is "water under the bridge" now, I can help shed some light on our reasoning:

Basically, the Immortals in question had been effectively cut off and stuck on their mountain top. So, with the "peace talks" gearing up, we figured that we would show our support for a cease-fire by moving the force in question down to the flats - which we mentioned to you in our prior peace talks message to you. If the Immortals were not attacked - Great, we then had the chance of trying to get them back north again. If the Immortals were attacked and wiped out (which of course they were), this "aggessive action" on the part of GS could be used as an added reason for Vox support in the international community - which it was.

So you see, since the force in question was not being put to good use, we decided to put it to good use as a political pawn in the diplomatic arena...after all, this game is more than just performing your moves and passing the turn to the next player. Political intrigue is a big element.

I think I covered all of the aspects surrounding the incident...did I miss anything Beta?

Arrian · June 19, 2003, 10:42

No, not that group of immortals.

I'm talking about a move made MUCH earlier in the war.

Your main stack was advancing down the mountains toward Arashi. But then you guys split off a group that headed East toward Sandstorm. That group was, IIRC, entirely composed of regulars, and was wiped out.

But thank you for this:

Quote:

Basically, the Immortals in question had been effectively cut off and stuck on their mountain top. So, with the "peace talks" gearing up, we figured that we would show our support for a cease-fire by moving the force in question down to the flats - which we mentioned to you in our prior peace talks message to you. If the Immortals were not attacked - Great, we then had the chance of trying to get them back north again. If the Immortals were attacked and wiped out (which of course they were), this "aggessive action" on the part of GS could be used as an added reason for Vox support in the international community - which it was.

-Arrian

Arrian · June 19, 2003, 10:54

I checked out turn threads... you guys moved 1x vet immortal & 3x regular immortals (1 of which was down to 2hp) to the tile due east of Arashi (Arashi 6). This was in 610bc.

Why?

-Arrian

FrustratedPoet · June 19, 2003, 10:56

That was nice.

GhengisFarb™ · June 19, 2003, 11:35

We should rename this thread "The Voxietnam War: Analysis and Commentary."

alva · June 19, 2003, 12:00

May I make a title suggestion too?
How about...

Suicide commando

Harovan · June 19, 2003, 12:40

The Immortals moving to the plains near Arashi... was that the situation when I phoned Theseus 4am in the morning (his time)? That was funny.

ManicStarSeed · June 19, 2003, 14:38

Quote:

The Immortals moving to the plains near Arashi... was that the situation when I phoned Theseus 4am in the morning (his time)? That was funny.

Yeah, when Vox was thretening Arashi, The tension was so high, it was palatable... There must have been a couple of dozen posts (in or forum) along the lines of.. Where is the save? Is it here yet? What's taking so long? The suspense was killing us. Our chickens were chomping at the bit because we wouldn't count them until they were all hatched. I loved it. Then finally, off the mountian Vox did come and there was much rejoycing. We stood a chance. Up untill then it was real touch and go. Much of the planning was along the lines of aborbing the first wave and preparing for the second wave. After we dealt with immortals that came off the mountains , we started to dream of a day where we could go on the offensive.

Mss

Wittlich · June 19, 2003, 14:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
I checked out turn threads... you guys moved 1x vet immortal & 3x regular immortals (1 of which was down to 2hp) to the tile due east of Arashi (Arashi 6). This was in 610bc.

Why?

-Arrian

Ah, that group. Well, if we left them next to your city for much longer they would have been toast - since your catapults were getting extra training by using our Immortals as target practice!

So we decided to split them up and head in two different directions - basically to try and push back the surrounding "fog of war." In another words, we decided to use them as "combat scouts" since your cities by that time were well defended and the mountain route back to our territory had already been cut off. But I'm glad it got your attention...I stated that it probably would in our forum (ie, hopefully confuse you for a turn or so..."are there reinforcements that you can't see?" and possibly force you to commit other forces to deal with our scouting excursion).

Ah well, it was at least worth the try.

ManicStarSeed · June 19, 2003, 14:53

I would say it kind of worked, we had to think it through. Basically we had to deal with your little splinter group without comprimising established defenses. Although we dealt with it, It took us a couple of turns where we had to beef up some defenses and attack the splinter group. Had the group been larger, we might have had more issues, but it couldn't happen without giving up your position at Ashari 9.... Books can be written about the debate regarding that single square.

Basicaly I rember Vox recieving kudos for the splinter move, If it were stronger, it might have done more good, but you would have lost A9 sooner considering the forces in the area.

Mss

Theseus · June 19, 2003, 15:04

It was certainly an intense period of the game.

I spent the whole week saying to myself "WTF!!! How did we get into this mess??!!"

You should have attacked... using up Immortal attack strength for scouting on plains is, uh, silly, although yes, the very nature of the splinter made things tough on us.

FrustratedPoet · June 19, 2003, 15:09

Quote:

Originally posted by ManicStarSeed
Yeah, when Vox was thretening Arashi, The tension was so high, it was palatable... There must have been a couple of dozen posts (in or forum) along the lines of.. Where is the save? Is it here yet? What's taking so long? The suspense was killing us. Our chickens were chomping at the bit because we wouldn't count them until they were all hatched. I loved it.

Agreed, that was kind of scary but oh so much fun.

My favourite moment so far - and probably my favourite Civ moment ever, actually - was the turnchat we held right after GoW landed those two horsemen on our west coast. There were a few of us hanging out in the chat-room, discussing which stack to hit first (there were about 3 Voxian stacks we want to hit, in addition to GoW). Each catapult shot was accompanied by a drum roll and a big cheer if it hit and a round of boos if it missed. We sent the WC's into battle and watched as they won victory's, gained promotions or fell valiantly. The rush and excitement when we lucked out and got that GL (with our first ever Elite victory) was amazing. There was dancing in the streets of Stormia that night.

Now THAT is what this game is all about.

FrustratedPoet · June 19, 2003, 15:11

Theseus: If you join the Cake or Death civgroup then I can let you into our private forum. The rest of us have been there for a few days, although the game hasn't started yet (should get going this weekend). I sent you a PM about it, but I don't know if you got it.

alva · June 19, 2003, 18:23

Quote:

Books can be written about the debate regarding that single square.

Can !!! don't you mean have been...

-
We must include that we did have a very kind RNG that turn (even without the GL).
I remember many people alrady planning to give up the city (Monsoon).
Which could have lead this thing in a complete different direction.
Look at what Beta can do while getting hammered, can you imagine what would have happened if they would been able to sack a city.

(even if it was next to worthless, or at least not important).

-
That turn chat was fun indeed, stayed in that room with DeepO and Vel well passed bedtime (sun was high on the sky when did go to bed

)

\o/ \o/ (<--- nothing to do with l33T )

Beta · June 19, 2003, 19:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Wittlich

Ah, that group. Well, if we left them next to your city for much longer they would have been toast - since your catapults were getting extra training by using our Immortals as target practice!

So we decided to split them up and head in two different directions - basically to try and push back the surrounding "fog of war." In another words, we decided to use them as "combat scouts" since your cities by that time were well defended and the mountain route back to our territory had already been cut off. But I'm glad it got your attention...I stated that it probably would in our forum (ie, hopefully confuse you for a turn or so..."are there reinforcements that you can't see?" and possibly force you to commit other forces to deal with our scouting excursion).

Ah well, it was at least worth the try.

That's not quite my recollection - but it will work for now.

Hot_Enamel · June 19, 2003, 21:28

Quote:

Originally posted by FrustratedPoet

Agreed, that was kind of scary but oh so much fun.

My favourite moment so far - and probably my favourite Civ moment ever, actually - was the turnchat we held right after GoW landed those two horsemen on our west coast. There were a few of us hanging out in the chat-room, discussing which stack to hit first (there were about 3 Voxian stacks we want to hit, in addition to GoW). Each catapult shot was accompanied by a drum roll and a big cheer if it hit and a round of boos if it missed. We sent the WC's into battle and watched as they won victory's, gained promotions or fell valiantly. The rush and excitement when we lucked out and got that GL (with our first ever Elite victory) was amazing. There was dancing in the streets of Stormia that night.

Now THAT is what this game is all about.

Please tell me that Mad King Donegeal at least put up a fight ?

alva · June 19, 2003, 21:40

That question was asked and answered before

(a long time time ago if I'm not mistaken, diferent character maybe, same incident)

Panzer32 · June 19, 2003, 22:50

Quote:

Originally posted by FrustratedPoet

Agreed, that was kind of scary but oh so much fun.

My favourite moment so far - and probably my favourite Civ moment ever, actually - was the turnchat we held right after GoW landed those two horsemen on our west coast. There were a few of us hanging out in the chat-room, discussing which stack to hit first (there were about 3 Voxian stacks we want to hit, in addition to GoW). Each catapult shot was accompanied by a drum roll and a big cheer if it hit and a round of boos if it missed. We sent the WC's into battle and watched as they won victory's, gained promotions or fell valiantly. The rush and excitement when we lucked out and got that GL (with our first ever Elite victory) was amazing. There was dancing in the streets of Stormia that night.

Now THAT is what this game is all about.

Nice. We let someone have a nice moment with civ

Hot_Enamel · June 20, 2003, 00:00

Quote:

Originally posted by alva
That question was asked and answered before

(a long time time ago if I'm not mistaken, diferent character maybe, same incident)

He went down squealing just like Grog then ???

Beta · June 20, 2003, 07:49

A number of files from the Voxian archives have recently been de-classified. I will post an AAR from Vox's perspective shortly.

GhengisFarb™ · June 20, 2003, 08:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel

Please tell me that Mad King Donegeal at least put up a fight ?

Someone may need to let donegeal know that just because the unit named after him in the game died, it doesn't mean he is no longer part of the GoW team.

Beta · June 20, 2003, 09:56

As the palace library is now being packed up, and we will have limited travel space for files, we have had to re-visit our retention schedules on certain previously classified documents. As a result, numerous events from the last war are now de-classified and can be reported on.

Theseus' and others description of events is pretty much as it happened. There are certain aspects where elaboration from our side may help. This is strictly my view on those aspects:

1. We left it too late. We over-estimated the time it would take you to get to feudalism. Pikes made the difference. A stack of Immortals should be able to take a city of spears and catapults, even fortified and on a hill. Pikes are a different story. As Inchon showed - and we got lucky with the first catapult shot taking out the walls - it is very tough taking out Pikemen.

I estimate that if we had started 10-12 turns earlier - it may have been a different outcome.

2. Grog - bless his soul. We should have come up with a different approach to handle Grog. We were very worried that our deception campaign prior to the war would spring a leak. So, when we were ready to go, we took out Grog realizing that gave you a number of turns to prepare before we could get the main force south.

In retrospect, as it now appears the deception was holding quite well - we should have used a settler to build the city which was planned for there anyway. The previous agreement would have required, if I recall correctly, for you to pull Grog back at that time.

Depending on his subsequent placement - or even complete movement back to GS territory, we may have been able to drastically reduce the time from the official notice of war to when we approached Arashi.

So - when you boil it all down - Grog won the war.

3. The initial east coast landing to take out the warrior there was a major tactical boo-boo. We were worried of warriors becoming swordsmen, which in retrospect, was silly. Yes - we got him - or as the case may be - he got himself. But it gave the chariots a chance for victory - and the start of your GA, Even delaying your GA for 5-10 turns would have been greatly beneficial to our cause.

4. Alternatively - we should have built a couple additional galleys (this would have been tough - our small economy was maxed out in war production as it was), and taken 6 Immortals further down the east coast. A landing there could have seriously stretched the defense - and ultimately caused more damage than we achieved on the mountains to the north. Yes - they did manage to tie up GS resources - but there was little they could do offensively.

5. The warrior-Immortal pump. We had used this earlier - building a pile of warriors then upgrading when the iron was connected. Then HarryH had the clever idea of leaving Dissidentville connected to the iron and building (actually - pop-rushing) a barracks in Dissidentville. When the main force moved south - the road to the northern cities was cut, and they could then produce warriors who would travel south to Dissidentville to be upgraded. It delayed their trip south - but allowed a small economy to have a high military output.

And yes - it did cost money - and we scraped our pennies together as best we could. The actual cash flow sheets and "sources and uses" page - ah - let me see - sorry - that one wasn't declassified.

6. And speaking of still classified information. Why we moved to the plains? Witt's description above will do for now.

7. Knowing when you are beat. We delayed this one too long. It had become apparent that we were not going to make the serious headway we had originally planned for. As long as there was still a threat to GS, we still had some leverage. We should have cut our losses at that time and neogotiated for peace when we had some strength left in our position. GS has been more generous than we have right to expect in the current peace and Voxodus negotiations, but if we had started serious discussions earlier - well, who knows. I suspect we may have been able to hold onto North Estonia - but that may just be nostalgic thinking on my part.

8. Knowing when you are beat, part II. With Inchon being settled, we were seriously outflanked. With somewhat better planning, we could have still gotten the majority of our forces back to North Estonia. Indeed - our intent was originally to move our large stacks around the city and back to Elipolis. I made the major screw-up of not covering the North Estonia coast with the warrior to prevent the subsequent landing. In reviewing it - we could have produced sufficient warriors quickly and used workers to cover all landing sites in North Estonia. Then it would have been a matter of slugging it out over Elipolis. As has been discussed above - the outcome still may have been a GS victory - but it would have been messy, and we would have had some leverage.

The last ditch effort was the attack on Inchon, which went suprisingly well, but if I am correct - came up one wounded pikeman short of taking it. Then again - we would still have had to retake Elipolis....

So, there you have it. A war defined by a series of 'ifs' and 'should haves'.

Much of this I'm sure GS and others have surmised.

And as the GS folks have attested to - it was a lot of fun!!!

FrustratedPoet · June 20, 2003, 10:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Beta
but if we had started serious discussions earlier - well, who knows. I suspect we may have been able to hold onto North Estonia - but that may just be nostalgic thinking on my part.

Actually there was a good chance you could have kept North Estonia. There was a time when we were discussing whether or not you complete destruction would be in our best interests - considering the resources it would use up - and whether we might be better off making peace and asking for everything south of the bottleneck (we would have wanted Elipolis, though, which you wouldn't have wanted to give up).
There were several GS members who, at one time, would have settled for that peace deal. Of course, subsequent events changed that.

alva · June 20, 2003, 10:34

Quote:

came up one wounded pikeman short of taking it

From memory at least two.
-
Without the iron, it was all but finished, you wouldn't have been able to counter.
-

Quote:

And yes - it did cost money - and we scraped our pennies together as best we could. The actual cash flow sheets and "sources and uses" page - ah - let me see - sorry - that one wasn't declassified.

DeepO · June 20, 2003, 12:03

Indeed, a lot of ifs and shoulds

Well, some comments:
1. The thing is, of course, that if you started 12 turns earlier, you would have had less immortals. If you would have focused all that force onto one city, it might have been a different picture, but simply the nature of a slowmover attack would have meant we could recuperate. Don't underestimate the power of well-positioned spears, certainly not when they can be built in 2/3 of the time. I think the real question is whether you could have attacked us in despotism, so that our GA would not have meant the same production advantage. The exact amount of shields we could produce at that moment certainly is classified, but I think that you would have been scared... or should have been. And our real production never was in any danger without an invasion force, you only threatened our fringe cities (well, some of these are no longer fringe cities, but at the time they certainly were). You should have had double the number of immortals to attack us directly, and win.

2. Grog... indeed, settling a city close, would have meant we had to move him. However, I'm pretty sure that at that moment, the doves would have been silenced, and more troops would have been build 'just in case'. Already, a lot of discussion were revolving around our pathethic military.

3. Actually, that (small) invasion force scared us quite a bit. That certainly was no tactical error. Leaving your immortals exposed for 2 turns however... you should have withdrawn onto jungle or mountains, instead of staying in the open.

5. we very quickly assumed you had cut your road, it was what we would have done. So that was no real surprise

Even then, we overestimated the amount of resistance we encountered...

7. Indeed. Knowing when you're beat is the thing in a war. When the first peace talks happened, we might have settled for South Stormia, including Elipolis. The only reason is that it would have meant we could turn part of our GA into buildings, which we now seriously lack. But without Elipolis no sane Stormian would have agreed, we knew all too well we were winning.

8. Don't put your hopes up too high. Inchon never was in any danger of being overrun in one turn only, and reinforcements were very close. (one exception: you using pikes offensively, and winning) We used spare forces to take Elipolis. Again, you were very lucky at Inchon, or your attack could have been a lot bloodier on your side.
Plus, I strongly doubt that you would have been able to cover all your coast in time, but can't elaborate on why exactly.

Before you say that you lost because of a series of mistakes, I have to say that I don't think that was the reason. You did a couple of very nice strategical moves, and we made our little mistakes as well. The point is that you have to recover your mistakes, while trying to use your enemies mistakes as far as possible.
But, from the start, this war was already decided. The reason you left out, but which I think is one of the most important ones is that you underestimated our production capabilities, and overestimated the effect your initial attack wave would have on our empire. Oh, and a second and third wave would have been nice, we were waiting

As to peace plans: one of the reasons why we are rather quick when it comes to the Voxodus plan is because it's an old plan. We discussed this over a month ago. And yes, I consider us quite generous, so you better remember this

DeepO

Beta · June 20, 2003, 12:30

Quote:

Originally posted by DeepO

Before you say that you lost because of a series of mistakes, I have to say that I don't think that was the reason. You did a couple of very nice strategical moves, and we made our little mistakes as well. The point is that you have to recover your mistakes, while trying to use your enemies mistakes as far as possible.
But, from the start, this war was already decided. The reason you left out, but which I think is one of the most important ones is that you underestimated our production capabilities, and overestimated the effect your initial attack wave would have on our empire. Oh, and a second and third wave would have been nice, we were waiting

DeepO - my exclusion of those points in no way means that they are not valid and that we do not acknowledge
them. They were very much key to your victory.

From an economic perspective - it was like we poked a sleeping bear.

From a military perspective - it was like we poked a sleeping, angry, and clever bear.

Quote:

As to peace plans: one of the reasons why we are rather quick when it comes to the Voxodus plan is because it's an old plan. We discussed this over a month ago. And yes, I consider us quite generous, so you better remember this

DeepO

Agreed.