Apple launches the PowerMac G5

[Sava]

APPLE SUCKS!

[Whaleboy]

Exactly. If Munich was a country, it would certainly be small and insignificant

A rich first world city, with many likely to follow considering that such an administration would go through logical and rational reasoning before switching to linux, similar processes would occur in other cities, and governments.

[Asher]

Originally posted by elijah
You're not exactly neutral in this debate between linux and windows. If you wont give me a case as to why I should switch to windows, can I take it that you cant?

You could take it as that if you were feeling particularly daft.

Most people know how many pages I could spew about why I like Windows over Linux. Which is why I'm not going to. I plan to relax tonight.

The third world is an increasinly important market for desktop computing, and it is one where linux is gaining a good hold.

That's definitely true. It also remains true that the third world's desktop computing means absolutely nothing to me.

I don't exactly consider it a compliment for Linux when it's mostly used in areas where the average income is $500/yr and there's 1 car per every 1,000 people in a nation. But if people wanna brag about that, they can go all out.

Personally, I find LUGs to be far more efficient than hanging on the phone for hours to be told to reinstall.

So why don't you use a WUG for tech support rather than phone.

Hell, even Apolyton is an excellent tech support site.

[Asher]

Originally posted by elijah
A rich first world city, with many likely to follow considering that such an administration would go through logical and rational reasoning before switching to linux, similar processes would occur in other cities, and governments.

Nice spin.

Munich is an East German city that was communist until ~15 years ago, and is still very left-wing. (At least, I'm pretty sure it was East German, as it's in eastern Germany...)

And it's a simple ideological fact that left-wingers are more open and accepting to the concept of open source.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again -- announcing when some small town in England adopts Linux for its dispatch computers (it seriously happened), or when Munich decides to replace its 20,000 city computers with Linux desktops, is absolutely nothing.

Every day, 1000x more institutions choose Windows over Linux regularly.

And despite what people think, Windows Server's usage is unquestionably on the rise.

Linux advocates need a reality check before anyone can take them seriously.

[Whaleboy]

I don't exactly consider it a compliment for Linux when it's mostly used in areas where the average income is $500/yr and there's 1 car per every 1,000 people in a nation. But if people wanna brag about that, they can go all out

I think its good news, even MS seems to be giving something of war chest to third world concerns, look at the india case, and the memos telling salespeople "not to let linux win at all costs" or whatever it was.

Besides, says something about costs as well when these people are choosing linux. Not to mention performance on old hardware that they will get etc etc.

Windows has many many times the number of people using it than has linux, yet there is not a single WUG in Northampton, or even this region of England that I know of. Linux is a more community based system anyone, one would expect that, windows is hardly a cult OS. I'm not part of that cult but I'll be damned if I dont take advantage of it!

Apolyton is an excellent technical support site if you dont like straight answers . Personally, and no disrespect to those that answer questions on here, I rather get my info from people that have spent years using linux and unix, or IT professionals, or programmers, or hackers etc etc.

[Asher]

I rather get my info from people that have spent years using linux and unix, or IT professionals, or programmers, or hackers etc etc.

Who do you think answers them here?

[Whaleboy]

And it's a simple ideological fact that left-wingers are more open and accepting to the concept of open source.

I hardly think its a fact, why dont you show me some figures for that?

If its true, then of course those on the right are going to be sicked at the prospect of people cooperating and working together.... pure evil.

Linux advocates need a reality check before anyone can take them seriously

Why don't you enlighten us, before we take you seriously?

[Whaleboy]

Who do you think answers them here?

Civ fans?

[Whaleboy]

You really like that site don't you Sava?

[Asher]

Originally posted by elijah
I hardly think its a fact, why dont you show me some figures for that?

It's a simple common sense thing.

Why don't you tell me why it isn't the case? Provide evidence or argue rationally.

If its true, then of course those on the right are going to be sicked at the prospect of people cooperating and working together.... pure evil.

Not really, because Linux's development is largely controlled by huge, American corporations now.

Why don't you enlighten us, before we take you seriously?

People don't have to take me seriously, it just so happens that I base my opinions in reality.

I've been hearing for years that Linux is going to catch up on the desktop, and its share (at least in NA) is essentially unchanged. I've heard MS would've been broken up, I insisted it'd never happen. Then it was MS would be forced to release Windows sourcecode: I said it'd never happen, it never did. Then it's the Sun Java crap: I said they'd never force MS to ship it, and they didn't.

And in the hardware field, I told people back when the P4 was a rather disappointing chip that it will be the fastest: It just needed the 512KB cache and 533MHz systembus it was designed for, and >2GHz clockspeeds. And look what happened? Intel clearly designed the better chip, on the same process it's quite a bit faster.

Linux advocates tend to live in their own little world. They're disconnected. That's why they make so little sense.

That's why the Linux filestructure is beyond retarded.

[Asher]

Originally posted by elijah
Civ fans?

Civ fans who happen to be people that have spent years using linux and unix, or IT professionals, or programmers, or hackers etc etc..

[Sava]

yes I do

[Panag]

Originally posted by Sava
everyone knows APPLE IS NAZI!

post your crap somewhere else , .....

especially your stupid remarks that are completely crazy , ....

[Wiglaf]

Hey asher, I'd seriously respond to your post but the "uncrashable" XP just rebooted, frying my "saved to disk" desktop settings. And don't forget about the "compatability wizard" that is really a useless voodoo freak with one mission: screwing your old Win95 software. And it took me 5 minutes to hook up a canon digital camera on a mac and over three hours of driver bashing, "your camera ain't recognized" pain on an Inspiron PC notebook.

My marketing campaign is better than yours.

[Wiglaf]

Actually, your bickering threads are beginning to remind me of the compatability wizard, asher. Stay away from my Win95 software.

[Asher]

Wiggy!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are an inspiration for us all!!

[Drake Tungsten]

Originally posted by Asher
Munich is an East German city that was communist until ~15 years ago, and is still very left-wing. (At least, I'm pretty sure it was East German, as it's in eastern Germany...)

Munich was not in East Germany and was most certainly not communist 15 years ago. It's not even anywhere near eastern Germany; it's far to the south, near Austria.

Unfortunately, this horribly wrong "fact" is all to indicative of your debating style.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Munich was not in East Germany and was most certainly not communist 15 years ago. It's not even anywhere near eastern Germany; it's far to the south, near Austria.

Unfortunately, this horribly wrong "fact" is all to indicative of your debating style.

You're right, it is -- when I'm not sure about something I put a disclaimer. Integrity.

And I thought you weren't entering the debate -- it is now clear that you concede all my points and remained silent, and you just now found your first thing to take issue with.

[Drake Tungsten]

I don't debate with you anymore; I just pop in occasionally to refute the more blatant lies you throw out when you're "debating." Check a map quick next time and you won't have to hear from me.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
I don't debate with you anymore; I just pop in occasionally to refute the more blatant lies you throw out when you're "debating." Check a map quick next time and you won't have to hear from me.

You're not fooling anyone.
Poli-sci isn't my forte, Drake, and IIRC Munich is on the right side of Germany somewhere...east of Berlin. That's all I remember.

I was pretty sure, but not entirely sure, so I put a disclaimer. Hence, it would be incorrect to call it a "blatant lie" -- it was misunderstanding due to my ignorance of geography. Further, it was accompanied by a plain-text disclaimer immediately after questioning its accuracy.

You don't debate anything else with me, because you can't -- you have no case. You only find something stupidly simple like that, where I make it clear I'm not usre, then go roll with it and jump up and down acting all proud or something.



For future reference, Drake, a lie is when you know something to be true but do not tell it as such. Someone who is ignorant is not lying.

So for your sake I'm going to assume you are ignorant as to what "lie" means.

[Asher]

dp

[Whaleboy]

Why don't you tell me why it isn't the case? Provide evidence or argue rationally

This lil thing called burden of proof. You were the one to make the statement you back it up. Besides, I'd hardly call IBM a bastion of the iron left

Not really, because Linux's development is largely controlled by huge, American corporations now

LMFAO!!! The vast majority of linux development, including all the major OSS projects like the kernel, kde, gnome, mozilla, mplayer, OOo, the GNU stuff, etc etc are all voluntary organisations, the likes of which have been in existence for years. IBM and all the corporate lovefest that is going on with linux has contributed little in the way of software or development, although it sure has greased some of the wheels and is likely to be a big help in the future. Most of the smaller tools are developed by individuals or small groups in the "traditional manner". If you're going to talk about linux, at least take the effort to find out about it, not base all your knowledge on some rumours, what MS tells you, and what you experienced with what people generally agree to be the lamest distro in existence (mandy 9.0).

it just so happens that I base my opinions in reality

See above (and Agathons sig ).

I've been hearing for years that Linux is going to catch up on the desktop, and its share (at least in NA) is essentially unchanged

Growing at an exponential rate, is the fastest growing OS in existence. For years, did you honestly think that TWM was capable of bettering win9x, and kde1 being capable of beating win2k? Of course not. Even KDE 3.1 is still not as easy as XP, but its catching up fast. I had a look at the kde dev site, some of the ideas for 3.2 are looking good!!!

Asher, perhaps you can tell me who'll win the 3 o'clock at newmarket on sunday?

Linux advocates tend to live in their own little world. They're disconnected. That's why they make so little sense

Fez has a new competitor for the title of Apolyton's Grand Ad Hominem! Attack the software, or rather write better windows code, rather than the motivations of the user. Of course, that is complete and utter BS, exactly how many linux message boards do you visit regularly? Did it ever occur that it would not have come this far in this short space of time without having a good degree of substance behind it?

That's why the Linux filestructure is beyond retarded

Really? I find the dos idea idiotic (even the original QDOS which MS bought off someone is called "Quick and Dirty Operating System") in reference to the file structure.

I find the UNIX system, especially the BSD / Slackware based version (although the differences between the linux distros are minimal at most) to be logical, quick, and easy to deal with in both commandline and in X, although it takes some getting used to coming from the random, disorganised, inconsistent and inefficient dos-based system of A:\ C:\, D:\ etc etc. You never know what is where. At least with Linux/BSD, I know that my executables are in /usr/bin, my home stuff is /home, the configuration stuff is /etc, and because it is more abstract than the dos based stuff, I can keep it all in separate partitions, and if I want to reinstall or back up, its supremely easy to wipe certain partitions to reinstall while maintaining the other stuff with my data. In windows, that actually requires thought!!! .

Civ fans who happen to be people that have spent years using linux and unix

Wow!! Lots of people using *nix I didnt know about. I should post a thread although you'd jack it and it'd get pulled .

Still I prefer my LUG, they post cd's to people!!

the compatability wizard

You mean the spyware importer?

Panag: Its a bit of fun, lighten up!

[Drake Tungsten]

Poli-sci isn't my forte, Drake, and IIRC Munich is on the right side of Germany somewhere...east of Berlin.

Munich's not east of Berlin, moron. It's not even anywhere near Berlin. Munich's in the south of Germany, like I said.

I don't see what poli-sci has to do with this either. It's more basic geographical knowledge.

[Asher]

Originally posted by elijah
This lil thing called burden of proof. You were the one to make the statement you back it up. Besides, I'd hardly call IBM a bastion of the iron left

IBM is exploiting Linux. Moronic opensource coders are essentially working for IBM, for free.

And I can't "prove" something like that, to my knowledge there's no studies about it. But some general logic helps:
1) Open source advocates online tend to be left-wing, overwhelmingly so
2) Communist and socialist countries are far more likely to adopt Linux than western democracies
3) The open source ideology is very similar to communist ideals -- there is no concept of ownership or property, the code is the community's (people's!)

LMFAO!!! The vast majority of linux development, including all the major OSS projects like the kernel, kde, gnome, mozilla, mplayer, OOo, the GNU stuff, etc etc are all voluntary organisations, the likes of which have been in existence for years.

No buddy, look at the changelogs on who is submitting what. 95% of Mozilla's checkins come from Netscape software engineers, employed by the "small" company known as AOL-TimeWarner...

Kernel changelogs are also fun, IBM is extremely active there.

If you're going to talk about linux, at least take the effort to find out about it, not base all your knowledge on some rumours, what MS tells you, and what you experienced with what people generally agree to be the lamest distro in existence (mandy 9.0).

You've NO idea what you're talking about.
I've used Linux since 1999, dual-boot. I've used RedHat 5.0, Mandrake 6.0 and 7.0, SuSE 6.2, Debian 2.2, Slackware 7, and most recently Libranet 2.2 (I used apt-get to upgrade everything to Debian unstable).

I've used Linux longer than you, and I've probably got more of an idea what I'm doing with Linux than you do, too. I also use Solaris constantly at my university.

So don't talk down to me like I'm some Linux newbie, IIRC you've been using it for less than one year.

Fez has a new competitor for the title of Apolyton's Grand Ad Hominem!

That wasn't an ad hominem -- for two reasons: One, it's not the basis of my argument, and two, it's an observation. Want proof? Look at Urban Ranger -- he's in lala land when it comes to computers. Even you, saying Linux use is "growing exponentially" and the "fastest growing desktop in existance" -- you wanna find some sources for that?

Windows Server is rising faster than Linux is according to netcraft.com, and Windows XP is the fastest selling Windows ever.

Attack the software

Okay -- it's kludgey, bloaty, monolithic (literally), and buggy. I could go into far more detail, as I've done MANY times on Apolyton, but that'll wait for another day.

or rather write better windows code

The Windows code is already better...

Really? I find the dos idea idiotic (even the original QDOS which MS bought off someone is called "Quick and Dirty Operating System") in reference to the file structure.

DOS was obsolete before Linux was even at 1.0. No excuse!

I find the UNIX system, especially the BSD / Slackware based version (although the differences between the linux distros are minimal at most) to be logical, quick, and easy to deal with in both commandline and in X

Oh, totally!
It makes complete sense that "/etc" stores system preferences. It makes complete sense that binaries are stored in /usr/bin, /usr/local/bin, and other places differing by distros. It makes complete sense that DEVICES are treated as FILES...

The UNIX system makes no sense whatsoever. It exists because it was easy to do like that, not because it's easier or better. It's worse from a usability standfpoint.

At least with Linux/BSD, I know that my executables are in /usr/bin, my home stuff is /home, the configuration stuff is /etc

In Windows, my executables are in "Program Files", my "home" stuff is in "My Documents", and configuration stuff is...with the stuff they configure (what a novel idea!)

You mean the spyware importer?

Huh?

[Wiglaf]

Hey asher, where do all those error reports you send to MS go? In the toliet with the rest of Bill Gates' crap, I bet. I sent them my personal info in that error report too. For all I know there is some guy running around pretending to be me. A mini-Wiglaf so to speak. I am like Sandra Bullock in the movie "The Net." Only I am a man. All because of that damn error report. There, so much for the "uncrashable" OS. So much for award winning service. More like award winning serv-ass.

I am on to you asher. I am on to you and your goons. Your only way out is to tell me the lat/long of Zimbabwe, Paris, and St. Petersburg in the next minute. Then and only then will your compsci knowledge be in any way validated.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Munich's not east of Berlin, moron. It's not even anywhere near Berlin. Munich's in the south of Germany, like I said.

Hmm.
My bad.

And yeah, I am a moron with geography.

I don't see what poli-sci has to do with this either. It's more basic geographical knowledge.

Gee, I don't know -- what does poli-sci have to do with communist countries???

[Drake Tungsten]

Gee, I don't know -- what does poli-sci have to do with communist countries???

Not much, unless your studying their system of government. Knowing where Munich is involves geography. Knowing that it wasn't communist involves history. Political science doesn't enter into it.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Not much, unless your studying their system of government. Knowing where Munich is involves geography. Knowing that it wasn't communist involves history. Political science doesn't enter into it.

Studying political science usually requires history courses, right?
Those history courses would cover things like East Germany, right?
And therefore Geography is required, right?

I've never had a Geography class in my life. Ever.

Closest thing is Social Studies/History where we'd spend like 5 minutes a year.

[Whaleboy]

No buddy, look at the changelogs on who is submitting what. 95% of Mozilla's checkins come from Netscape software engineers, employed by the "small" company known as AOL-TimeWarner

The engineers whose software is most of the content behind mozilla. You got any other examples to back up that claim, other than mozilla?

Kernel changelogs are also fun, IBM is extremely active there

Kernel development is controlled by Linus Torvalds, not "huge american corporations".

I've used RedHat 5.0, Mandrake 6.0 and 7.0, SuSE 6.2, Debian 2.2, Slackware 7, and most recently Libranet 2.2 (I used apt-get to upgrade everything to Debian unstable)

All of which (except slack) are lame compared to the new distros. If you want my advise ( ), check out SuSE 8.2. OS art?

I've used Linux longer than you, and I've probably got more of an idea what I'm doing with Linux than you do, too

But you cant get it running faster than XP? It would appear that I know more about it than you (just a speculation of course ).

Even you, saying Linux use is "growing exponentially" and the "fastest growing desktop in existance" -- you wanna find some sources for that?

Some 40 year old virgin with questionable personal hygiene. Seriously, it was an article on OSnews somewhere, I'll PM you the link when I find it if you want.

Windows Server is rising faster than Linux

Unsuprising considering the required upgrades etc. its gone from 0 to whatever it is since it was released, a rise of (many) percent. Really suprising that one is

DOS was obsolete before Linux was even at 1.0

1994? Yet it formed the basis of systems up to winME!! Even now the file structure is arranged with drive letters!

It makes complete sense that "/etc" stores system preferences. It makes complete sense that binaries are stored in /usr/bin, /usr/local/bin, and other places differing by distros. It makes complete sense that DEVICES are treated as FILES

Its generally how theyre addressed. I find it does make sense, its more consistent with the workings of a computer, besides, being able to assign file attributes etc I find gives me another level of control that is over-complicated in windows (although credit where credit is due, it provides it to some extent).

It's worse from a usability standfpoint.

Nope, its worse from your subjective point of view

In Windows, my executables are in "Program Files", my "home" stuff is in "My Documents", and configuration stuff is...with the stuff they configure (what a novel idea!)

In program files, binaries are mixed with documentation, the folder structure is dependent on how it was installed and the software itself, its all a giant mess! My documents makes no provisions for other users, and the entire windows system is incredibly terrible in the commandline, even if it was a UNIX commandline (which it isnt) the structure would be impossible.

Huh?

I bet that's what the NSA are saying

what does poli-sci have to do with communist countries???

And what do communist countries have anything to do with operating systems? With regards to your troll on the left, if people choose linux because they trust a disperate group of hackers with different agendas with different skills, with no corporate deadline or market schedule, more than they trust a corporate leviathon that has proven itself to hardly be the capitalist version of Mother Teresa, then I say hell yeah!

[Whaleboy]

Anywho, much as I'd love to stay and *chat*, I must dash and sleep, unlike my linux system, my uptime is limited.

Asher: If you want to continue this, please PM me.