Am I Right to be Angry About This? - Page 4

Sikander · July 2, 2003, 02:32

Quote:

Originally posted by GePap
And who are we going to be using to occupy Iraq but reservists? After all, The prez. said all this about bringing the noys back home. Someone has to take their place.

And bring da funk back home too!

Sikander · July 2, 2003, 02:46

Quote:

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Not off the top of my head, but IMO, we need to start simulating an economy, until one gets built. Give people basic stuff to buy, pay them, try to find stuff for them to do other than shoot at us. Take sanctions level income per capita and jump it about 50% for starters, plus the costs of imported food and other basic items. 25 million Iraqis, give or take - so maybe 2 billion and change a month, borrowed against future oil sales. That number would be reduced pretty fast over time as a real economy and real jobs start developing.

We also need to do a quick inventory of needed mechanical infrastructure - power plants, sewage treatment and water treatment, etc., and probably buy 2-3 billion worth of pumps and parts and package treatment stuff right off the bat.

It's easy to see why paying people to shoot each other has been so popular throughout history amongst conquerers. You stimulate their economy while providing an outlet for agressions and a new enemy to get their minds off of you.

Gatekeeper · July 2, 2003, 02:58

Maybe Bush can use some of that $34 million in campaign money he raised in the last six weeks for his 2004 re-election bid to help out in Iraq with.

Gatekeeper

Sikander · July 2, 2003, 02:59

I have to agree with DanS, this guy should be dealt with for taking a big steaming dump on his mission. Bust him down to private and let him lead the Iraqi patrols and show them how to do things properly. Send the lazy and crooked Iraqi cops along with him.

The occupation has been FUBAR from jump street. The occupying forces need to be trained for this duty in general, and for this mission in particular. Unfortunately we are short of troops and can't spare anyone (aside from Sgt. Snuffy in the article) it seems. Another thing lacking in spades has been a doctrine to base a training program on. Everything is being thrown together at the last minute. A much better way to do this would be to manage the Iraqi populace in much the same way the American populace is managed. Addict them to listening to our radio and tv broadcasts and then turn on the propoganda. Reinforce that message by having the military people on the street back up that message. It would be nice if the propoganda works to its fullest, but it doesn't have to be completely successful as long as it is impressive. Running such an elaborate show will support the idea that the U.S. is their best hope now.

There should be plenty of documentaries on Saddam's brutality. Enough to wipe the smirks of Stalinist incredulity from the faces of those Tikritis with blood on their hands. Enrage the country with true stories simply told by survivors. Now ask for young volunteers to join a new police organization, and specifically look for Shias who have been mistreated in recent memory by Saddam. Train them up and send them to the Sunni Crescent. Falluja seems a good a place as any to start.

MichaeltheGreat · July 2, 2003, 03:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Sikander
I have to agree with DanS, this guy should be dealt with for taking a big steaming dump on his mission. Bust him down to private and let him lead the Iraqi patrols and show them how to do things properly. Send the lazy and crooked Iraqi cops along with him.

If he's busted more than a minimal Art. 15, the GCMCA is back at his unit HQ wherever he's from. The Art. 32 hearing would be back here, and from the sound of it, he doesn't give a ****. Sending him home is a reward, and the politics are such that sticking it to the guy who calls the FUBAR what it is will create more headaches and draw more attention than a reservist E6 is worth.

Sikander · July 2, 2003, 03:52

Quote:

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat

If he's busted more than a minimal Art. 15, the GCMCA is back at his unit HQ wherever he's from. The Art. 32 hearing would be back here, and from the sound of it, he doesn't give a ****. Sending him home is a reward, and the politics are such that sticking it to the guy who calls the FUBAR what it is will create more headaches and draw more attention than a reservist E6 is worth.

You are probably correct. But a whiny NCO is really corrosive for morale. This guy sounds like a terminal case / self fulfilling prophecy. Perhaps sacrificing him would send the right message to the Iraqis he has been working with as well as any other sad sacks who share his bleak outlook. I'm serious about this because I agree with your analysis that we have no option but to do our best to succeed in Iraq.

Cruddy · July 2, 2003, 03:58

Can't say I'm the least bit surprised. You have a crap officer not even trying to do his job but just blaming the situation and taking no responsibility...

If there's a currupt cop... fire them. Hell, just shoot them and blame it on a training accident. Of course, this is a reservist, not a real soldier. Certainly not a soldier with any sort of commitment, backbone, or (let's face it) guts.

Seems to be just sitting around waiting to get sent home. My, what war does that remind me of... except the puke is a "volunteer". If he can't take the heat, he should have stayed out of the kitchen.

If I was one of those Iraqi cops, I would seriously have to question which side my bread was buttered... being a cop...

Or being a criminal.

There's a fine line between crime and survival.

Are you right to be angry or surprised? I don't know.

Question is; what are you gong to do about it that actually does some good?

I wouldn't recommend pulling all forces out and leaving Iraq to rot.

I wouldn't recommend coalition forces just shooting on sight... but if the local cops aren't (or can't) do their job, then get out there and show them HOW it's done.

Don't just sit on your arse and criticise.

DanS · July 2, 2003, 10:11

The occupying forces need to be trained for this duty in general, and for this mission in particular. Unfortunately we are short of troops and can't spare anyone (aside from Sgt. Snuffy in the article) it seems. Another thing lacking in spades has been a doctrine to base a training program on. Everything is being thrown together at the last minute.

All of this is true. But I guess there are political reasons why these things took place the way they did (if you did it again, or under a different administration, you would do it the same).

(1) It seems that the military wants to avoid creating a capability for peacemaking at all costs. I guess it's because they don't want to peacemake. (2) The occupation was thrown together at the last minute because they didn't know the reception they would receive in Iraq, but most importantly Bush & co. didn't want to create a big political target for their opponents unneccessarily. (3) Rumsfeld wants to show that we can do things with fewer troops. If a whole plan is FUBAR, then change the plan, not try to paper it over by just adding troops.

MichaeltheGreat · July 2, 2003, 11:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Sikander

You are probably correct. But a whiny NCO is really corrosive for morale. This guy sounds like a terminal case / self fulfilling prophecy. Perhaps sacrificing him would send the right message to the Iraqis he has been working with as well as any other sad sacks who share his bleak outlook. I'm serious about this because I agree with your analysis that we have no option but to do our best to succeed in Iraq.

I find it rather unlikely that the press happened to find the one sad sack in an otherwise gung ho unit, let alone find the one unit with a lone sad sack in an otherwise gung ho deployed force. This guy is probably a lot more common that most folks would like to believe. Maybe a bit further off the edge, but it's doubtful he's the only one.

Sometimes sad sacks are corrosive to morale, sometimes they're a symptom of a deeper corrosion.

SpencerH · July 2, 2003, 11:21

In my experience, this kinda stuff is a common reaction to these types of situations. Its even worse when you have motivated experienced soldiers who are being sniped at but who feel handcuffed or aren't accomplishing anything.

Even the best units can deteriorate quickly if the leadership isnt there. I recently read about the incidents in Somalia that led to the disbandment of the Airborne Regt. A sad day for a unit that jumped in at Arnhem.

DaShi · July 2, 2003, 11:36

CBeasts make me angry.

GePap · July 2, 2003, 11:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Sikander
There should be plenty of documentaries on Saddam's brutality. Enough to wipe the smirks of Stalinist incredulity from the faces of those Tikritis with blood on their hands. Enrage the country with true stories simply told by survivors. Now ask for young volunteers to join a new police organization, and specifically look for Shias who have been mistreated in recent memory by Saddam. Train them up and send them to the Sunni Crescent. Falluja seems a good a place as any to start.

Do you think anyone in Iraq does not know already what saddam did? Everyoe in Iraq knows, speically the Shia (who lived throught the putting down on the '91 revolt). And that changes nothing.

Send Shia proxies to fight in Sunni lands? Fine recipe to get the whole country to implode, from the center south.