CyCon PACT Proposal

johndmuller · July 3, 2003, 04:11

The CyCon formallyl offered us a PACT in the in-game trading/dialog window and have posted the following proposal on the Bravenet Forum:

Quote:

Date: 07/1/03 10:41:52 AM

Name: Drogue

Email: akizeta@lineone.net

Subject: Pact Discussion

Firstly I would like to thank PEACE, and in particular Flubber for the eventual happy outcome of our discussions. Flubber said that the poll on the PEACE forum about a pact was looking favourable last time we spoke, and I would like to enquire if this is the case, and if so, whether PEACE would like to formalise our friendship and declare ourselves Pact Brothers?

I would also like to discuss details. Obviously anything going further than the in-game effects would have to be ratified by both people, however if in discussion we can come to personal agreement over terms, possibly in a contract, that we could put to our citizens to ratify. I believe that corroborating over what techs to research, so that we can trade, would be logical and mutually beneficial. We have a long term basic science plan, just as an overview to see where we are going, which on signing a pact we would be able to share. However it is quite obvious what the "core" techs that we wish to aim for. I believe Ind Auto and Gene Splic are 2 of the first to aim for, as well as probably Doc Initiative and Non Math/Synth Foss Fuels. This could be discussed so that we both get our aims. I would favour a system whereby all techs are traded, one for one, regardless of level, and as few as possible (possibly none) are deemed to important to trade. Importantly, I think we need to progress ASAP to Pre-Sentient Algorithms, to stop the PUT getting the Hunter Seeker Algorithm, rendering their -40% probe penalty (Knowledge+Faction) a non-issue.

Looking at this, not only would it be logical to agree on which techs to research, it would also be logical to look at which SPs each wishes to build. For example, we could play to strengths and have PEACE build the Maritime Control Centre while the CyCon get the Supercolider, or we could do the opposite, to mean that the alliance get's almost complete sea domination and great tech.

These are just a couple of ideas of how it could work with regards to SPs and techs. We could also put forward a system where loans can be offered where more beneficial (for instance to prevent another faction building an SP). We could even have a system whereby techs or money are traded for units. For example, if the CyCon wanted a ship to attack another faction, they might be able to offer a tech for a ship.

Personally I am open to all these ideas, and many of them would be things that would be worked out once the Pact is there and trading is under way. However I wanted to start to discuss what is and is not a good idea, and most importantly, if we can get a Pact signed. Whatever else, I see the Pact as being as long term as possible (co-op victory is on isn't it?) as that is of mutual benefit, and by far the best opportunity we have of winning this game. "Seperate we are flawed and weak, but together we will become masters of our own destiny!" (adapted from American Pie

)

- Prime Function Drogue Beta-8

PS. This is probably a better place to discuss diplomacy, since all our factions can read it, but if PMs are nbeeded, either send them to myself as Prime Function or to DBTS as Foreign Affairs (name to be confirmed) Although he is not as active ATM.

I suppose that we need time to think about it and barring an unusual outpouring of quick responses, I imaine that I will tell them something positive, but delaying.

Meanwhile, assuming that we are probably going to go through with this eventually, we should think about any terms we might want to institutionalize or be on record for, as well as whatever other elements we want to pre-negotiate.

Flubber · July 3, 2003, 13:05

I favor pact as I am assuming that going it alone we will be very vulnerable. I also assume that some one else will pair up eventually. If we have the cycon as a pactmate, we secure what so far appears to be a fairly long coastline to our east.

To me , one of the best benefits of a pact is the ability to avoid researching or obtaining some techs for a while and keep the research rate up. For example, we don't have to give them doc: flex we can give them a ship instead . . we don't have to research nonlinear if they then upgrade that ship and gift it back to us . .

I favor pact but

1. we do not give them our map until and enless we know this is a pact to the end
2. Ditto with doc: flex ( or gifting them a ship) -- exception if they are about to discover it themselves
3. WE should avoid techs that we do not have an immediate need for -- biogenetics comes to mind-- we have seen what gaining tech does to our research rate
4. we need dicussion on where we are headed as a faction-- are we builders or agressors-- note I hope we are looking at whipping out some probeships soon

Makahlua · July 3, 2003, 17:41

Dittoing Flubber on 1, 2 & 3

But I hardly think peaceniks get a lot of booty

Ahem! Seriously - most games of AC I've played call for aggression at some point; if we can find the happy medium between the two, we should do well

My civ3 addled brain keeps yelling for 'oscillating war' and tech extortion...but that's C3 ^_^

Some terms we might want to think about: a fixed term of review, as in say every ~30? turns we reevaluate whether the pact is still working for us and can drop back to treaty status with no penalty. Maybe a fee of a tech or gold for wanting to break it sooner. Any penalty for inflitrating each other, or should we just agree to be mutually infiltrated (other than what pact gives, I mean)? A general guildeline or payment agreement for unit trading would be useful as well; to use flubber's example say we give 3 armoured shell ships to be weapon upgraded and they get to keep one + some PoE?

Just a few off the top of my head

FlameFlash · July 6, 2003, 11:22

Full agreement with Flubber on all counts.

Hercules · July 7, 2003, 12:54

For my PoE this is a good faction to be pacted with from our point of view.
I agree totally with Flubber on points 1, 2 , and 3. And on 4, but I think Maki makes some good points. How long should the pact be for; when to review. Secondly what is our approach to mutual infiltration.

re point 4, I tend to favour a hybrid approach.

Further down the line I agree about the Hunter Seeker. I would not like to see either of the two 'research' factions get it but if we are pacted with CC and they get it it is less of a problem.

Hercules · August 9, 2003, 10:07

Cycon Negotiations ( copy from PM from Maniac

Hi Cap'ns,

I just wanted to tell you I've received your PM and mail. In general I'm of course positive to such a deal. After all IndAut is a very important tech for us (crawlers) and for you (Doc:Ini). There are a few things I'm confused about though. I'll ask about them asap in a next PM. Oh yes:

quote:
This is a fairly time-sensitive thing as we are currently holding the turn.

Pleaaaaaaaaase do not rush things like in the previous tech trade. :beg: I expect 48 hours should be plenty enough time to deal with some things.

Another point: Have you already received a PM from our External Affairs Function Drogue? For a few days we were actually planning to contact you ourselves concerning the Believers, but it hasn't happened yet, probably because of Drogue's IRL job.

Greetings,
Mani Alpha-3 Prime Function of the Cybernetic Consciousness
__________________

Hercules · August 24, 2003, 23:13

I am posting here because the matter concerns our friends the Borg.

After securing Ind Auto, the Borg have unexpectedly ( at least in my view) commenced researching Doc: Flexibilty.

They are doing so, in my estimation, because they traded DoC: Mobility to Roze
(I tried to trade it to her my self previously but she didn't want to trade). and Roze flipped to Doc: Flex with one year to go to completition.

Presumably Cycon well then try to trade a tech or buy Doc: Flex from Roze.

This raises a number of issues.

1 Should we trade Doc: Flex to Roze, if we can, before she completes. If successful what would she then research and would she trade new tech. If not would she trade new tech to the Borg.

2 It is not Pact-like cooperation on research, as we envisaged in the pact making discussions.

3 Should I send a message to the Borg asking for an explanation.

4 Should we offer Borg Doc: Flex to at least get another tech.

I favour option 3 to start with.

A question, by the time turn 2131 comes to us, will Roze have discovered Doc: Flex and will the Borg (who precede us) have traded with her (if she acknowledges their transmissions) for it.

So if we are too late what do we do and if we're not what do we do.

Thank heaven Flubber is due back very soon to

2

johndmuller · August 25, 2003, 04:38

I agree that it seems irritating what they did (although do we know that they did it?).

We did trade them Doc:Mobility without any restrictions and on our part we would probably not feel bad about trading Planetary Nets to an AI who wanted it, so we should watch out for our own hypocracy index on this issue. Furthermore, I'm not sure that the DJ's got the Doc:Mob from the Borg anyway - I couldn't see any techs that they might have gotten from Roze in the Borg's possession (they could have gotten money, but the AI doesn't pay very well, and I would hope that the Borg wouldn't risk our displeasure for only 25 ec's). Is it possible that Roz got it from Miriam?

AFAIK, the Borgs do not have infiltration on the DJ's, so even if they did supply Doc:Mob to the DJ's, they should not know what the DJs switched their research to (and will indeed have by the time of the Borg's next turn), aside from Roze telling them herself (which well shie might), so while it is unfortunate that the DJ's now have Doc:Flex, that is water under the bridge amd we'll just have to deal with it. It seems that the best thing for us to do is to lock the Borg into a trade for Doc:Flex before they find out that the DJ's also have it. Personally, I try to refrain from contacting the AI unless I have reason to believe that they will offer me something I need, as I think that too-frequent contact only worsens relations (especially if you are unwilling to declare vendetta on their enemies), so we can hope that the Borg follow my strategy rather than Cap'n Herc's, which seems to be for frequent contact. If they do, the secret will be safe for a little while at least.

I was not happy with the way the Borg seemed to glom onto our contact with Roze and the intel we gave them that Roze had the techs that they needed (If Miriam doesn't start out with Doc:Mob, a possible scenario might be that the Borg traded Mobility to Miriam for Roze's commlinks - I don't know at the moment whether or not the AI makes that kind of deal) and then use that stuff against us in the negotiations for IndAuto, but that's also water under the bridge (and if I detatch myself enough, I might be able to see it as a clever ploy). We may have to eat more humble pie here too, for example if the Borg want us take one of their level 1 techs for the Doc:Flex, we may have to accede to that 'cause the AI might well accept that deal (they would probably ask for indAuto, but might settle for AppliedPhysics as the alternate suggestion) - It is also possible that the DJ's are not talking to them either.

I think we should ask the Borg why they are researching a tech we already have instead of something new to square their debt - they may have a good reason (not being offered, etc). We should also ask them how they got the DJ Commlinks. If they tell us they traded Doc:Mob for it with Miriam, we should rub their faces in the fact that Miriam went ahead and traded it to Roze, depriving either of us from making that trade with Roze - the essence of that hypothetical deal would be that the Borg gave Doc:Mob to both AI's primarily to be able to talk us down in the deal for IndAuto; hardly a pactmately thing to do, giving techs to the enemy to spite your pactmate. If they don't tell us how/where they got the commlinks, we might point out to them that any further questions of us will fall on similarly deaf ears.

As to the rationale for them researching Doc:Flex, no matter what they say, we will probably believe that they are doing it to pressure us into trading it to them - as if they weren't doing it for that reason, one would have thought that they would have already told us that regretably they were unable to research anything useful due to only being offered x,y,z useless techs, so they went with Doc:Flex instead. Since they didn't tell us that (a rather implausible thing anyway - and one which we could theoretically check out if we cared to do a lot of work), it seems that they probably did it to pressure us to trade it to them. I guess in light of the DJ's having it, we need to chide them on this and offer to trade it to them anyway, despite them being dirty underhanded sneaky bastards, just to be able to move on, get our now 2 decent techs (this would be how I would hope to avoid the level 1 techs) and because we at least are good pactmates and are above such pettiness.

In the event of them actually going out and trading for Doc:Flex before we get around to talking to them about it, I think that would be a serious problem for our pact, given the scenario above where this whole chain of events started with them going behind our backs to contact the DJ's to use against us in the bargaining. Then not only would they have cut us out of trading Doc:Mob with the AI, but also cut us out of trading Doc:Flex with the AI and also not traded for it with us either - a rather total abuse of our pact.

If we buy the theory that Roze and Miriam are trading, they we might want to make a quick deal for Doc:Flex with Miriam before it is too late. I notice she is also not communicating - do you suppose that is due to excessive contact, or have you not been contacting her every turn?

----------------

Interesting, I received a much-delayed-in-the-ether email from Maniac left over from during our acrimonious IndAuto negotiations, an email that was more inflamatory than any others I recalled from him - among other things, he said that he, rather than Drogue or any other invisible Borg, was the one most against making deals with us.

-----------------

I agree in general with FlameFlash's observation about the AI's and us being allied with the research factions. As to beelining for military techs, we are not so good at researching (although we do have to research something) and zapping the AI's may not be within our current capabilities - as to them. I'm not sure what should be our current priority, but it might be nice to get some crawlers out there beefing up our min production and doing a bit more growth before we get too militaristic, although I do think we need to REMEMBER TO BUILD SOME DEFENSIVE PROBES.

Makahlua · August 25, 2003, 09:27

May I add - if we don't like their counter offer, I propose ho'ing Doc:Flex everywhere -especially- the AI just to make a point.

And isn;t the pact up for review at some soon point? I second the defensive probe garrisons soon - we have a couple of command centers, I think? Any extra experience would help!

Hercules · August 25, 2003, 20:15

OK thanks for that. I 'll email Drogue (he was at a Festval over the weekend and see what he says). By my calculation Flubber ought to be back soon, like today or tomorrow, so he can take over the diplomacy.

johndmuller · August 26, 2003, 04:31

Flubber is seemingly back - at least he sent me a game turn for a PBEM. Whether or not he is ready to take the glow off his vacation by butting heads with those %%#!&@!in' pactmates of ours is another question though.

Maki, I think I understand what you're saying, but I'm sorry to say that the word "ho'ing" must have come into the vernacular after I set sail on my latest voyage, 'cuz I dun git it - cudya hep me oot? Regretably, I think we have just the one CmdCntr, at Boot, where the pop and production are currently kinda low at the moment; perhaps we need another one somewhere else for this purpose, although one would hope that it will be a little while before our pactmate wants to infiltrate us. It's starting to come back to me now, is Googlie's funky adjustment the one that adds Foil Probes to the AI's predefined unit list causing them to make them?

Makahlua · August 26, 2003, 06:52

'ho'ing' Y'know like the girls in port everyone's had? If'n those scalawag Borg are gonna try to pilfer our crown jewel of Doc:Flex, then let's make her known to everyone...kinda cuts down on potential profits from -them- trading it, y'see?

And as to #2 aye, I seem t'remember Admiral Googlie talking about making things 'more interesting' by giving the AI bluepritns to party boats.........we should look at where a couple of other ComCenters could be built, if the ports involved aren't too tied up with other projects/necessities. You know Roze and her 'information should be free' agenda - she'll be selling Doc:Flex to Miriam at least, and if anyone else finds her soon, them as well.

And I don't wanna think about how sad -Believer- party boats must be....what do they do, read Scriptutre all night? Pffft.

Googlie · August 26, 2003, 09:05

Mark123jansen · August 26, 2003, 09:42

I agree with Makahlua about selling doc flex, I believe that the time has come where most other factions are capable of researching it. So we might as wel give it to them and get some nice tech and/or cash for it. Maybe a posting on the public forum announcing that we are selling it? though simultaneous private messages to all the faction leader we've met would probably be more appropriate.

johndmuller · August 26, 2003, 11:42

So it was that "ho'", as in pimping our crown jewel; do you suppose that's what we mean when we say "Yo Ho Ho and a bottle of rum"?

Well mostly we need to hawk those jewels to the Borg (and Miriam probably) before they get it from Roze; presumably the PUT would also be interested too; as to the rest, I don't believe that advertising would be allowed w/r those we haven't met yet, let alone the actual trading.

Googlie · August 26, 2003, 13:54

Googlie · August 26, 2003, 15:05

Hercules · August 26, 2003, 21:42

This reply from Drogue to enquiry below

Dear Captain,

I do not know if Mani has replied yet, but I thought it best if I do in case
he hasn't.

Thank you very much for the trade

It is nice to see it concluded. We
are researching Doc Flex because we were told that you would not trade for
it. If that is not the case, we will happily trade, and will switch
(probably to eth calc so we can transmit it too you)? We could happily
provide another tech (maybe Gene Splicing, which we are relatively near?) in
exchange for Doc Flex, or a tech we have now (App Phys?).

Yes, Miriam contacted us with an incident with a chopper, and offered it too
us.

I hope this answers your questions. If you are willign to trade for Doc
Flex, it would be most appreciated

Yours
Drogue Beta-8

----- Original Message -----
From: "cathal.mullaghan"
To: "Drogue" ; "Maniac"
Cc: "Flubber" ; "Flameflash" ;
"Makahlua"
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 1:55 AM
Subject: Re Peace Cycon Pact discussions.

> Greetings External Function Drogue Beta 8 and Mani-Alpha - 3
>
> Well our joint endeavours delivered the goods re Ind Auto.
> Congratulations to us both.
>
> I write because just towards the end of our pirates turn I noticed that
> you are now researching Doc: Flexibility. We are a bit puzzled by this
> as we have that tech and we presumed you would be researching something
> else: unless there was little or no choice offered at the research
> screen.
>
> As Pact colleagues we more or less thought you would be approaching us
> again soon regarding trading Doc: Flex and we could work out a deal.
>
> On a second point: out of interest how did you acquire the DJ comm link.
> Was it via an exchange with Miriam?
>
> We mention this because in an earlier exchange between us it was
> indicated that you were about to contact us regarding you recent contact
> with her.
>
>

Hercules · August 26, 2003, 21:57

I hope Flubber can take over the negotiations now he's back.

In the above I was sorely tempted to include a line like

'we have received a faint signal to our monitoring station from one of our far flung pirate explorers. They indicate they see signs of another faction's base (which is true, we only met the PUT scout)'.

We don't indicate which faction but it does commit us to saying we have met another faction. But it could be made more vague.

Like Doc: Flex our comms are also a nice set of jewels.

Googlie · August 26, 2003, 23:31

Hercules · August 26, 2003, 23:36

Well that clears that up. I thought they would only know that information if they also had met with or communicated with faction.

johndmuller · August 27, 2003, 00:29

The Cuspidore only told you that 4 or 5 times to deaf ears, but Googlie tells you once and you're signed right up. Maybe I should send in my terraforming advice under his letterhead.

Hercules · August 27, 2003, 08:48

I didn't realise Truce (informal or otherwise) indicated a tech trade had takern place. I thought it simply indicated basic contact. Secondly I would have expected them and us to know about Roze and Miriam because we both have contact with those factions.

If they had met the Drones and we hadn't I didn't expect to see info regarding that even in a Pact relationship. Obviously after Plan Council when everybody has contact, the situation is clear about who has treaties and pacts.

Maybe we should seek a pact with the PUT and see who they have met (joking)

johndmuller · August 27, 2003, 20:40

The commlinks list shows a variety of status entries. In addition to Pact, Treaty and Vendetta, there are Truce, No Truce, Blank (where only the Faction name is there) and Completely Blank (without even a line with the faction name). I'm not totally sure without opening up a few games about whether or not the last two both exist, or just one of them, but I think they do. I think that "Informal Truce" in the infiltration is equivalent to "No Truce" in the commlink list.

I think that the existence of a line with the faction name on it means you have their commlinks. In some PBEMS, due to some quirk of the setup (or maybe depending on the skill of the CMN), you may have lines for all the human controlled factions (and an imprecation from the CMN that you may nevertheless not use them until you actually meet in the game. Anyway, if it says Truce, you have probably established an actual truce via talking to the AI or using the truce button or making or receiving some offer; At the moment, I'm not certain of the difference between No Truce and Blank status with a faction line, but perhaps it depends on whether one of you is an AI or whether you have actually met, instead of just getting the commlinks or possibly something to do with infiltration or you or someone else getting the Empath Guild and using it to call an election. I have also seen occasions where the game did not think that players met while the players were convinced that they had, so there is also room for bugs in this analysis too.

To the best of my knowledge, none of the various possibilities differentiate with certainty that you have made a trade with each other or not - I think you can have most of them with or without an actual trade, but probably some on the low end, like the totally &/or partially blank would be impossible if you had actually made a trade.

Hercules · August 27, 2003, 21:33

Thank you Cuspidore, for that. That's actually the uncertainty I had.

Later in the game (to avoid hassle now), I 'll ask the Borgs when exactly they knew we had contact with the PUT.

Flubber · August 27, 2003, 21:43

It should be easy to see some info regarding who the PUT have met-- just open the diplo channel and " Offer all tech" -- the commlinks of anyone we have met and they have not will appear

As john D says when pacted, all pactmates know your diplomatic status with everyone.

AS for the cycon trade, I could resume my diplomatic role if you wish that but it seems you folks have been doing great without me. I would want to trade them Doc: Flex as late as possible-- it may be difficult for them to get it from the Angels since all they have is a truce with them.

I could begin negotiations offering to trade them doc flex 2 turns before their discovery of it in return for a tech to be chosen by us from among their choices. We can even use the changing circumstances in the last deal to explain why we won't give flex now . . . too many circumstances could change before we get our return tech . . . This could actually happen if we meet the Hive or Drones and manage widespread tech trades- It COULD occur that the cycon would not be able to flip to any tech desirable to us

SEcond major point-- do we want a pact- "forever" with the cycon-- I am in favor since I really really fear the drones in buster's hands but I wondered what other thought. Personally I don't like our chances for a solo victory

Edit-- reversed we and they at the end of the first paragraph

Hercules · August 27, 2003, 22:09

Flubber in my view you're back there (never left) as our Ambassador and I agree with your strategy.

Re your second point re Drones and PACT with Cycon: probably, but our relations with the Borg, as you will have gathered, have soured a little lately.

Also I can't imagine the PUT will willingly lie down for a Drone victory. (A lot of egos, sorry eggheads there.) so scope for cooperation there too.

Flubber · August 27, 2003, 23:15

Thanks herc

PUT-- I think there are a few people with an ax to grind with archaic so IMHO we should avoid any declared alliance with them . . . Really my hope is that some of the latent acrimony will spill over into the game and allow us to grow unhindered while the others take potshots at each other

CYcon-- have relations soured to the point that a pact forever is impossible or undesirable ?

I will await further input before approaching the CYcon-- after all, we are in no hurry to trade with them as long as we can forstall a DJ trade

Hercules · August 29, 2003, 22:22

Well is there any further input. The turn is coming round again.

Should we contact Roze ( not a lot to offer) and or Miriam - or wait until we infiltrate Miriam.

Hercules · August 29, 2003, 22:25

Regarding the Cycon and the PUT I think we should keep the diplomacy ticking over even if nothing more than titbits and pleasantries.