Hong Kong Democrats Victorious...

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Democrats? They won't know if democracy hits them in the head.

It isn't democracy that they are worrying will hit them in the head.

[Sikander]

I visited Hong Kong for about a week in 1968. It was a lot of fun, and very different than today. There were a lot of refugees from Red China who lived very poorly because the government could simply not build housing quickly enough to accomodate them. There were some multi-story buildings, but no memorable skyscrapers like those pictured above. To me it was a fantastic place, very exciting and lively compared to the suburban / rural area I lived in on Okinawa. There was also a wierd Britishness to the place that I assume is quite a bit less pronounced today. Anyway, I wish them luck and hope in this instance that the tail manages to wag the dog.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Sikander
It isn't democracy that they are worrying will hit them in the head.

When you ask one of them, "So this doesn't violate the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, what's so bad about it?" and that person will just give you a blank stare.

[mindseye]

I think the part that was "so bad about it" was that some of the proposed laws were identical to ones that, on the mainland, are routinely used to incarcerate people indefinitely for virtually any reason (just about anything can be somehow construed as "stealing state secrets" or "threatening the state", etc.).

Sounds like a lot of people were also dismayed by Beijing's campaign to hide SARS. That bit of paranoia hit Hong Kongers directly in terms of deaths as well as financial loss.

Apparently many were also concerned over the proposal that groups banned on the mainland could be banned in HK. Given that non-CCP pro-democracy movements on the mainland are ruthlessly eliminated, I could well imagine pro-democracy groups in HK not being particularly comfortable with that provision.

---

It will be very interesting to watch Beijing's response to this. So far it has only been silence, as well as blanket censorship of the story throught the mainland press (yet another thing HKers can be concerned about). My only concern is that this could hinder reform efforts by Hu JinTao. It may give hard-liners ammunition to use against him. On the other hand, Hu may be able to portray the HK protests as a sign that the Party must accellerate reforms or risk more of the same.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by mindseye
I think the part that was "so bad about it" was that some of the proposed laws were identical to ones that, on the mainland, are routinely used to incarcerate people indefinitely for virtually any reason (just about anything can be somehow construed as "stealing state secrets" or "threatening the state", etc.).

Surely all Western countries have similar laws to be used against foreign agents and such.

Originally posted by mindseye
Apparently many were also concerned over the proposal that groups banned on the mainland could be banned in HK. Given that non-CCP pro-democracy movements on the mainland are ruthlessly eliminated, I could well imagine pro-democracy groups in HK not being particularly comfortable with that provision.

Again, Western countries surely have laws for outlawing groups they deem harmful in a variety of ways.

Originally posted by mindseye
It will be very interesting to watch Beijing's response to this. So far it has only been silence, as well as blanket censorship of the story throught the mainland press (yet another thing HKers can be concerned about).

A recent survey indicates 84% of Hong Kong people care about the economy, only a whopping 5% care about politics. You also have to realise there is a very real cultural difference between US's individualism and China's focus on social stability and prosperity as a whole.

[DanS]

A recent survey indicates 84% of Hong Kong people care about the economy, only a whopping 5% care about politics.

As SARS shows in relief, there's really no way of separating politics and economics.

[Sava]

Good... I think the people of Hong Kong should decide what type of government they want. Democracy

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by DanS
As SARS shows in relief, there's really no way of separating politics and economics.

Politics < > Policies

[DanS]

Eh?

[Urban Ranger]

What does SARS have anything to do with politics?

[DanS]

Sounds like a lot of people were also dismayed by Beijing's campaign to hide SARS. That bit of paranoia hit Hong Kongers directly in terms of deaths as well as financial loss.

[Urban Ranger]

At ground zero, most of us were a bit upset at the PRC not telling us sooner about the disease. Other than that, we don't care one way or another, let alone "paranoia."

[Sava]

sorry for interjecting an irrelevant opinion, but I hate it when people use the term ground zero loosely. Ground zero is used to described the area directly affected by a nuclear blast. I hated it when the media referred to the WTC as Ground Zero. As bad as that destruction was, it was incomparable to the destruction of a nuclear attack. Please stop misrepresenting that term, UR... thanks.

[Urban Ranger]

Sava,

Main Entry: ground zero
Function: noun
Date: 1946
1 : the point directly above, below, or at which a nuclear explosion occurs
2 : the center or origin of rapid, intense, or violent activity or change
3 : the very beginning : SQUARE ONE

[Sava]

shaddup

[DanS]

At ground zero, most of us were a bit upset at the PRC not telling us sooner about the disease. Other than that, we don't care one way or another, let alone "paranoia."

Really, UR. You're not that obtuse. Beijing's paranoia probably resulted in each of you in HK losing thousands of dollars.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by DanS
At ground zero, most of us were a bit upset at the PRC not telling us sooner about the disease. Other than that, we don't care one way or another, let alone "paranoia."

Really, UR. You're not that obtuse. Beijing's paranoia probably resulted in each of you in HK losing thousands of dollars.

You're just guessing, yeah?

The CCP only hid the cases in Beijing, at which point in time we already had an outbreak. So it wouldn't have mattered then.

Besides, the decision to hide the cases was policies, not politics.

[DanS]

You're just guessing, yeah?

Nope.

The CCP only hid the cases in Beijing, at which point in time we already had an outbreak.

You have a selective memory of it all. The CCP covered up the extent and nature of the illnesses in Guangdong Province for four months before HK had an outbreak (from mid-November to mid-March).

In large part because of that, your pocketbook was drained by thousands of dollars.

[Sava]

DanS is right UR... China could've done more to handle SARS. The secrecy and misinformation only hurt world-wide efforts to save lives.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by DanS
You're just guessing, yeah?

Nope.

Good, I see that your assertion is well supported.

Originally posted by DanS
The CCP only hid the cases in Beijing, at which point in time we already had an outbreak.

You have a selective memory of it all. The CCP covered up the extent and nature of the illnesses in Guangdong Province for four months before HK had an outbreak.

No. The news of that SARS outbreak was all over here in November. Really, check some local papers for details. We even had stories of various rumours of people believing all sorts of "preventions" and "cures."

[DanS]

The news of that SARS outbreak was all over here in November.

But it wasn't on the mainland. That's the point!

[Boris Godunov]

Frozzy, FYI, Hawaii is a full-fledged state of the Union, not a "dominion" or territory. It is as sovereign as any other U.S. state.

[mindseye]

Surely all Western countries have similar laws to be used against foreign agents and such.

True - but with a most crucial difference: western nations have functioning judicial systems which give the accused a fighting chance in court. In China, if the gov't wants you in prison, you go. You may not even get to see a lawyer. In a typical political trial here (usually takes under an hour), there is no doubt beforehand as the outcome. Judges are merely Party functionaries. This kind of abuse is the why HKers are so concerned about the anti-sedition clauses.

Again, Western countries surely have laws for outlawing groups they deem harmful in a variety of ways.

In the west groups are not usually banned and persecuted for simply believing or advocating something the gov't doesn’t like. If that were true, a sizeable portion of Apolyton's OT posters would now be behind bars.

A recent survey indicates 84% of Hong Kong people care about the economy, only a whopping 5% care about politics.

I understand that, and do not doubt its accuracy. However, one twelveth of Hong Kong's population turned out to protest. One out of twelve - that is a staggering figure, equivalent in proportion to 24 million Americans hitting the streets nationwide to protest something.

You make claims that HKers don't care about democracy, but the fact that such an immense number were willing to take to the streets over it seems to bely that. This was a massive statement by the public - which is exactly why Beijing has been so uncharacteristically rattled by it.

In large part because of that, your pocketbook was drained by thousands of dollars.

... again, not to mention the number of HKers who needlessly died.

Quote:

No. The news of that SARS outbreak was all over here in November.

But it wasn't on the mainland. That's the point!

True. Through about March 2003 there was a total news blackout on the mainland. References to SARS in on-line chat rooms were immediately censored. Beijing was doing everything it could to conceal it, including the infamous hiding of patients in ambulances when the WHO was about. Don't foget that even after the WHO arrived in Beijing, it was many long weeks before it was allowed to enter Guangdong.

Up until spring of this year SARS was still being swept under the denial carpet as "atypical pneumonia". People only heard about it through rumor and SMS.

[mindseye]

From today's New York Times

Beijing Sends Team to Assess Hong Kong's Unrest
By KEITH BRADSHERONG KONG, July 10, 2003

Beijing has sent a team of officials here from security and intelligence agencies, the foreign ministry and the Hong Kong and Macao Affairs Office, pro-Beijing politicians said today. The delegation appears to be the mainland's first attempt to respond to the mass protests and pro-democracy fervor of recent days.

A march by 500,000 on July 1, followed by the indefinite postponement early Monday of a strict internal security bill, apparently surprised Chinese officials and intelligence services.

Ma Lik, the secretary general of the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment of Hong Kong, the most pro-Beijing of the five main political parties here, said that 10 to 20 officials had arrived.

"They have to assess the effect of the July 1st march," he said. "I think it's a shock to the central government. They are collecting suggestions first, and then there will be meetings in Beijing. I think these people will leave in a couple of days, and they will write their reports."

Shiu Sin-por, the executive director of One Country Two Systems Research Institute, which has close ties to Beijing, predicted that Beijing would discourage Tung Chee-hwa, Hong Kong's chief executive, from resigning.

Instead Beijing is likely to offer more economic and political support to Mr. Tung, Mr. Shiu said. "Definitely they are going to take action to try to remedy the situation," he said.

The Hong Kong Security Bureau and the Chinese government's liaison office here declined to comment on the visiting officials, whose arrival was reported today by several of Hong Kong's 14 local newspapers.

Six years after Britain handed over Hong Kong to China, the former British colony retains considerable autonomy as a special administrative region of China with a separate economic, legal and political system. Chinese officials are not supposed to intervene in Hong Kong's internal affairs, although Beijing is frequently consulted.

Hours before the rally on July 1, Prime Minister Wen Jiabao of China completed a much publicized visit here intended to highlight increasingly close relations, including a free-trade agreement, between Hong Kong and the rest of China.

Beijing publicly endorsed a plan by Mr. Tung, announced days after the rally, to rush the security bill through the legislature and was embarrassed when Mr. Tung's main legislative ally, James Tien, quit the cabinet, leaving Mr. Tung without the votes to pass the legislation.

Mr. Tien, the chairman of the pro-business and usually pro-government Liberal Party, said at a news conference for foreign correspondents on Wednesday that he was certain his decision had angered the central government. "Beijing is so mad at me, I won't even dare go to Beijing right now," he said.

A pro-democracy rally on Wednesday night attracted as many as 50,000 demonstrators in a sign of what may be the politicization of what used to be a fairly apolitical city preoccupied with commerce.

At the start of the July 1 rally, a balcony running the length of a nearby skyscraper was lined with men in uniform along with a half dozen cup-shaped devices that appeared to be eavesdropping equipment for listening to conversations in the crowd below. The gear mostly appeared to be pointed at a prayer vigil held by Bishop Joseph Zen of the Roman Catholic Church, an outspoken advocate of civil liberties here.

[DanS]

Bumpidy bump bump.