Deity! Help! All advice welcome...

Dominae · July 11, 2003, 09:32

Ok, so I'm having a little bit of trouble with my most recent game. Although I've beaten Deity a couple of times, I'm by no means a regular Deity player and get a good run for my money every time I attempt a game at this difficulty.

I've attached the save from 10BC, and what I would like is some advice on how to proceed. I've "helped" others out with their games in the past, and thought it would be cool to receive some criticism for once. Even if you're not a Deity player, your advice is much appreciated.

Here's a little background:

The game is Standard-size map, Deity, with everything else random. The land form ended up being Pangea. I'm playing the Japanese (also random), and am basically in the most central location on the continent relative to all the other civs. My opponents are: China (nearest neighbor), India, Rome, Egypt, Mongolia, Korea and Persia (on a nearby island).

I started out pretty good, using a Granary and numerous Flood Plains to expand into as much land as possible. I only managed to grab two Luxuries, although in retrospect I could have obtained a third. My capital is sitting on Horses, which was nice considering I'm with Japan. I capitalized on Rome and China's lack of Culture priority to sneak a few extra cities to the East and West beyond what I should not reasonably have had access to (I even split the Chinese empire in two!). The Indians had great Culture from the get-go and foiled my plans to expand to the South.

I kept up in tech quite well by being the broker as long as possible (using gpt to buy techs then selling them off), but inevitably I fell behind at the turn of the Medieval Age. I now have Engineering and Monotheism, while the AIs are at Astronomy and Gunpowder.

I switched to Republic ASAP and my strategy has been to accumluate a lot of Gold via Marketplaces and to use it to create Culture "bombs" in borders towns next to Rome and China.

The other civs have basically been engaging in oscillating war against each other (without my interference), and this suits me just fine. Originally everyone declared war on China, and I used a line of Spearmen to more or less dictate the progress of that conflict.

Trying the "think outside the box" to gain any advantage I could, I realized that I could grab an extra Incense from the Indians by placing a temporary city on the border (see screenshot below). I was quite happy about this move, as India was apparently trading all it's Incense to other civs, and is now offering me a great deal to get some back for their own use. I'm also positioning myself to grab a Dyes from the Chinese (see the other screenshot).

My major problem is lack of Iron. I could probably mount an offensive of some sort with Samurai, but without Iron my Horsemen are not going anywhere anytime soon.

The first screenshot below is of the core of my empire. The one great moment in the game so far occurred when I managed to peacefully trap a Chinese Great Leader!

SO...

Any advice on how to proceed from here? The lack of Iron is hurting me terribly, as I cannot "make a move". I'm not sure I can win this without going to war, as the Egyptians, Koreans and especially Persians are powerhouses (the Persians because of their protective isolation).

Help!

Dominae

Dominae · July 11, 2003, 09:33

Core:

Dominae · July 11, 2003, 09:34

Incense:

Dominae · July 11, 2003, 09:36

Dyes (city planned for northern Jungle):

Makahlua · July 11, 2003, 12:34

I can't peep in the save (no PTW) and Regent is more my level, but!

It looks to me like war is the answer both short & long term

How does China look in comparison to you - I'm thinking as you didn't list them as a 'powerhouse' civ, that might be the direction to militarily expand (and they obviously have Iron, since I see pikemen) Or perhaps Rome before Cleo engulfs it, but I tihnk China would be a bit easier to defend, being on that NE section away from everyone else. There's also some Spice near Hangchow in your screenie - yet another Lux for you?

I can't believe I'm trying to give -Dominae- advice...

Theseus · July 11, 2003, 13:37

Don't go near China yet... Riders = BAAAAD.

Do any of the other neighboring AI civs not have either iron or horses?

FrustratedPoet · July 11, 2003, 14:15

It's hard without looking at the save, but the basic facts are this.

1. You must fight wars to win from this position
2. You need Iron to fight wars
3. You have no Iron.

So ... you need to get yourself some Iron ASAP. Are there any Iron deposits within 5 or 6 tiles of your border? Would a quick war (and paying others to ally with you) be able to net you an Iron source?

I'm sure you know all this ... but that's all I have to say for the moment.

FrustratedPoet · July 11, 2003, 14:20

Tientsin or Rome are the prime targets for getting Iron. Neither are easy. Tricky....

Rhothaerill · July 11, 2003, 14:23

I haven't looked at the save and I've never played deity level, but I'd consider building up a vet warrior force, trade for iron with a civ that has extra (if you can, that is), just long enough to upgrade your forces and attack a civ with iron. Then once you get chivalry you'll already have your iron source. Simple...hopefully.

nuther · July 11, 2003, 15:02

I think you need to be fighting. Militaristic is one of your traits, and if you are not using it, you are handicapping yourself. Hopefully you have a few barracks, and a decent army. I'd go after the Indians as long as they dont have a unit with 3 defense yet. I thought samurai were good, why not use some?

Arrian · July 11, 2003, 15:09

No iron on Diety... that's brutal. Good luck, Dominae. I'm not even gonna try and advise ('specially w/o looking at the save).

-Arrian

FrustratedPoet · July 11, 2003, 15:49

I doubt I could win this on Monarch.

Dominae: Can you post some saves from later in the game when you get that far? It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

Theseus · July 11, 2003, 16:44

Is Rome at the center of Roman territory? It looks like there is a relative straight and short path to get there...

I got one word for ya, buddy:

Longbowmen. Lots and lots of Longbowman.

(ok, that was more than one word

)

FrustratedPoet · July 11, 2003, 18:33

Yes, Rome looks like the best prospect for getting Iron. Peacefully is preferable of course, but if you have to fight it should be easier than taking on the Chinese. I'm sure a player of your unquestionable skill could pull it off, Dom.

vmxa1 · July 11, 2003, 18:56

I am with Theseus on this one. I may have been crazy enough to DL this and mess with it, but I and stuck in AU402 and anything that force a loading of the game is out. Too long and painful, plus I do not have WWW access on that PC. We will cheer you on so it can be added to the So Very Cold thread.

DaveMcW · July 11, 2003, 20:18

With all that desert you must have Saltpeter. So it's only a matter of time before you clean up with cavalry+artillery. You can start building horsemen, catapults, and spearmen to upgrade now. Leo's would be nice but it's not neccesary.

That money you spent on culture bombs would have been more useful to stay in the tech race, but you can still catch up if you try. I didn't see you mention the Forbidden Palace, you should build that somewhere. Banks will also be helpful.

By the way, the AI only uses leaders to build armies. So unless you already have an evil plan to kill him soon, you might as well let him go.

DaveMcW · July 11, 2003, 20:50

Ok, I just opened the save and found an easier solution.

Dominae · July 11, 2003, 21:13

Thanks everyone for your comments, I'll try to address everyone. I must admit I went on and played a few turns myself before checking the responses in this thread, to see if I could come up with a "solution" on my own. I believe I have, too (see my next post).

Quote:

How does China look in comparison to you - I'm thinking as you didn't list them as a 'powerhouse' civ, that might be the direction to militarily expand?

China has been at war with almost all other civs since the beginning of the game, but has never lost any ground. The Chinese have kept up in tech by being friends with Persia. This means that their units are always better than mine (consider my lack of Iron), and they have more of them (due to production bonuses). But you're right that they're the natural target, I just have to find the right moment of weakness.

Quote:

Do any of the other neighboring AI civs not have either iron or horses?

All the civs have all the resources they need, as they've been pretty good at trading them around amongst each other. Korea does have an Iron to spare, but they're asking 50+ gpt for it, and I need that Gold for upgrades. India seemed to be without Iron for a while, but then I saw War Elephants and despaired...

Quote:

So ... you need to get yourself some Iron ASAP.

Yes, I agree completely. The tech race is too fast for me, and so my only recourse appears to be the power of Samurai (they're Musketmen, but without guns!). I think Samurai can do the trick in sufficient numbers, even against Musketmen.

Quote:

I'd consider building up a vet warrior force, trade for iron with a civ that has extra (if you can, that is), just long enough to upgrade your forces and attack a civ with iron.

I thought of this, but like I said the AI is not dumb when it comes to trading Strategic Resources (not in this game, anyway). It's either find an Iron source on my own, or use Longbowmen as Theseus suggests. I admit a Longbowmen offensive would be a first for me...

Quote:

Militaristic is one of your traits, and if you are not using it, you are handicapping yourself. Hopefully you have a few barracks, and a decent army. I'd go after the Indians as long as they dont have a unit with 3 defense yet.

I've been using Militaristic plenty well...for half price Harbors! As mentioned already, it's pretty hard to mount a decent offense when you've got no Iron. The Indians did go without Iron for a while (not sure why, they had a source within their borders...), but I missed that window of opportunity.

Quote:

Dominae: Can you post some saves from later in the game when you get that far? It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

Sure thing. This is has been a really really fun game for me. Although I've always been behind so far, I've never had that "I might as well quit now" feeling I often get when I play Deity. Even if I lose the game so far has been worth my time (and I thought I was losing interest in Civ3!).

Quote:

Is Rome at the center of Roman territory? It looks like there is a relative straight and short path to get there...

Rome is the most powerful military force in the game. I hear ya about a Longbowmen offensive, but Rome is simply not the right tree to bark up (that sounded weird).

Quote:

I may have been crazy enough to DL this and mess with it, but I and stuck in AU402 and anything that force a loading of the game is out.

So...you're keeping your comp on 24 hours a day just to avoid loading the darn thing? Sheesh, what a monster!

Quote:

With all that desert you must have Saltpeter. So it's only a matter of time before you clean up with cavalry+artillery. You can start building horsemen, catapults, and spearmen to upgrade now.

I'm far enough behind in tech that I'm quite certain by the time I reach Cavalry most other civs will be well into the Industrial Age.

Quote:

That money you spent on culture bombs would have been more useful to stay in the tech race, but you can still catch up if you try.

Yes, I saw my mistake a few turns after spending all the Gold. For some reason I thought flipping Roman and Chinese cities would be better than keeping up in tech...

Quote:

By the way, the AI only uses leaders to build armies. So unless you already have an evil plan to kill him soon, you might as well let him go.

That's good to know concerning Great Leader use by the AI. Still, is it not better to hold one Leader captive so they cannot ever produce another Army (or even just one)? It does tie up a few units, which could become an issue when I declare war on China (I was planning to use captured Workers, the realised the flaw in that plan!).

By the way, cool new avatar, DaveMcW!

Dominae

Dominae · July 11, 2003, 21:23

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMcW
Ok, I just opened the save and found an easier solution.

Actually, I found something even better than that!

The reason my Workers are all in a row is that there are so many Egyptian, Roman and Mongol units roaming around that I wanted to avoid being delayed even for one turn (fearing Egyptian border expansion), hence the Worker "path".

Dominae

Dominae · July 11, 2003, 21:31

Incidentally, I trapped another Leader, this time a Mongol one. I guess this is an advantage of sorts of having all the AIs fight their wars in your territory. This one is a lot easier to contain, however, as I have two cities as barriers, plus I do not plan on warring with the Mongols for a long time and therefore I can use non-combat units.

I'm still debating whether it's worth it or not. I mean, denying the AIs Armies must be worth something, right?

Dominae

fanes7 · July 11, 2003, 21:56

i have downloaded your save-file, i wish i could give you some advice after i see it. Now i am in company, working at saturday, and boring. Yes working overtime is very common in china.

i read your article, i think you start to war too late. i always play in deity, so i think the war you start is more early more good. A early victory war can mostly restrain your computer adversary.

Always i start a war to computer when i first see it, and after get all i want from diplomatism. So the earlyest GL i created is born in 3650BC(deiry, huge map, 16civs), in civ3 version(not PtW). My first regular warrior found three barbarians, and become elite, and then ,found the american warrior and its settle, and after diplomatism, i crush warrior , get two works and a GL.

So more early you fight, more advantage you get.

Dominae · July 11, 2003, 22:05

Quote:

Originally posted by fanes7
So more early you fight, more advantage you get.

I'm not at all confident waging early war on Deity level yet. On Emperor and below I definitely agree with you, but I feel that if I declare war on Deity too soon there is simply no way I will be able to defend against all the free units. There was a stack of 4 Archers and 3 Warriors walking out of China before I even completed my Granary!

Also, you mention you play Huge maps. That certainly makes a difference, because you can declare war and then ask for peace (what I believe you're calling "diplomatism") before the AI has a chance to get to you. On this Standard-size map had I declared war on any of my neighbors early on I have the feeling I would be playing another game right now.

By the way, welcome to the 'Poly boards, fanes7!

Dominae

vmxa1 · July 12, 2003, 00:26

I only keep it on from the minute I get up to I give up for the day. That is around 9-10PM.
I was talking about not want to stop the game then load up yours and then having to go back an reload the monster. But I should be done tonight or early the next day.

Theseus · July 12, 2003, 09:31

fanes7, you got a GL in 3650BC??!!

FANTASTIC!! What did you do with it?

Theseus · July 12, 2003, 09:34

BTW, when and where was it determined that AI civs only use GLs for Armies?

Panag · July 12, 2003, 09:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
BTW, when and where was it determined that AI civs only use GLs for Armies?

hi ,

they tend to that more , .....

sometimes they rush something unimportant with a gl , ......

but it could be that the rules are changed since ptw and or a patch , .....

have a nice day

Panag · July 12, 2003, 09:42

Quote:

Originally posted by fanes7
i have downloaded your save-file, i wish i could give you some advice after i see it. Now i am in company, working at saturday, and boring. Yes working overtime is very common in china.

i read your article, i think you start to war too late. i always play in deity, so i think the war you start is more early more good. A early victory war can mostly restrain your computer adversary.

Always i start a war to computer when i first see it, and after get all i want from diplomatism. So the earlyest GL i created is born in 3650BC(deiry, huge map, 16civs), in civ3 version(not PtW). My first regular warrior found three barbarians, and become elite, and then ,found the american warrior and its settle, and after diplomatism, i crush warrior , get two works and a GL.

So more early you fight, more advantage you get.

hi ,

unfortunatly that is changed now , you cant generate a gl anymore frm fights against barb's , ......

and those poor barbs cant get more hitpoint neither , ......

when starting on regicide or mass regicide its always fun to see a king getting elite status thanks to a good barb fight

have a nice day

vmxa1 · July 12, 2003, 13:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
BTW, when and where was it determined that AI civs only use GLs for Armies?

I am very dubious of that point. In the AU402 I twice saw a civ that had not annouced a wonder that I was working on for some time, built it.
In both of the cases they were key wonders and the civs did not have the tech two turns earlier as I foolishly sold it to them thinking I was close to the build and would be safe.
Two turns after I sell them the tech the wonder is done.
One was done by India and it was no better than 7th or 8th place, not powerful at all. That was the UN, but now it is like 2038 and they never called a vote. I wish I had gotten it as I think I would win a vote about now. Still have many polite civs as I traded luxs and techs recently.

DaveMcW · July 12, 2003, 13:52

Do you have a save right before either wonder was built? We can steal their military plans to confirm a leader was really responsible (or not).

Dominae · July 12, 2003, 16:46

Doh!

When tidying up my computer I accidentally deleted my recent saves from this game. I was starting to do pretty well, too! I suppose I could start over at the save included in this thread, but I got quite a bit beyond that and it was a lot of work.

Below is the last screenshot I took. I'm still at Invention and Theology, while the rest of the world has reached Steam Power. I did have ~20 Samurai, and was "Average" compared to China in military (the gang-banging eventually took its toll on them when I agree to sign ROPs). My last turn I was finishing up with the Chinese empire, and so my plan was to extort all the techs I could in little bundles.

Oh well.

Thanks for all the advice everyone!

Dominae