Thread Tools
Old July 13, 2003, 11:38   #61
KrazyHorse
Deity
 
KrazyHorse's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:33
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 138% of your RDA of Irony
Posts: 18,577
NYE: I still can't believe they had the balls to claim that we unfairly subsidise farmers up here, given that they give theirs 2-3 times as much as we give ours.
__________________
04-06-04 Killdozer NEVER FORGET
Stadtluft Macht Frei
In Memoriam Adam Smith: a brilliant man, taken too soon
Get Rich or Die Tryin'
KrazyHorse is offline  
Old July 13, 2003, 11:44   #62
Kidicious
Deity
 
Kidicious's Avatar
 
Local Time: 21:33
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,628
Quote:
Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Total EU exports to the US are what now, 2-3 % of GDP. Not enough to collapse us.
The EU economy will not survive a crash in the world economy. That is ridiculous. It would have to be entirely shut off from the whole world, not just the US.
__________________
Obedience unlocks understanding. - Rick Warren
1 John 2:3 - ... we know Christ if we obey his commandments. (GWT)
John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, "I am ... the truth." (NKJV)
Kidicious is offline  
Old July 13, 2003, 11:45   #63
DinoDoc
Civilization II Democracy GameApolytoners Hall of Fame
Deity
 
DinoDoc's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:33
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Underwater no one can hear sharks scream
Posts: 11,096
Quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Oh, btw. The conclusion up here is that the one, lone, mad cow was imported from the US (most likely) or the UK (less likely). The border remains closed to beef, and yet more people are getting pissed off.
Considering the number of countries that banned Canadian beef after that cow was discovered, why would they be pissed off at us?
DinoDoc is offline  
Old July 13, 2003, 12:05   #64
Kidicious
Deity
 
Kidicious's Avatar
 
Local Time: 21:33
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,628
Quote:
Originally posted by C0ckney
yeah i was gonna say about the corn laws, i think it was later than 1832, it was after the irish famine IIRC.
Yeah, 1846 actually. I looked it up.
__________________
Obedience unlocks understanding. - Rick Warren
1 John 2:3 - ... we know Christ if we obey his commandments. (GWT)
John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, "I am ... the truth." (NKJV)
Kidicious is offline  
Old July 13, 2003, 12:19   #65
DanS
Apolytoners Hall of FameApolyCon 06 Participants
Deity
 
DanS's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:33
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Not your daddy's Benjamins
Posts: 10,737
You are roughly as protectionist as the EU. Stop believing your own propaganda.

I don't think this is true, but how rough is rough? For instance, if the EU is twice as protectionist as the US, are they still "roughly" as protectionist?

As evidence that we're less protectionist, I would point to the US routinely allowing a very high trade deficit both in policy and consumer appetite.
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
DanS is offline  
Old July 13, 2003, 12:20   #66
GePap
Emperor
 
GePap's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:33
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: of the Big Apple
Posts: 4,109
It was done in steps: There was some hugely important trade liberalization step taken by Britian in 1832 as well, though if ti was not repealling the corn laws, I can;t think which one it was.
__________________
If you don't like reality, change it! me
"Oh no! I am bested!" Drake :(
"it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
"Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw
GePap is offline  
Old July 13, 2003, 12:36   #67
mrmitchell
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG RoleplayCall to Power Democracy GameInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamNationStatesPtWDG2 Tabemono
King
 
mrmitchell's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:33
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,394
Quote:
The auto industry is an excellent example. Most cars sold here are now foreign.
This is a myth, IIRC. AFAIK, we still outsell foreign cars by a wide margin.
Quote:
Is that good? The "debacle" you speak of was caused by an artificial "oil crisis" and the resultant rush to import cars which were perceived to be more efficient. It was not accompanied by an opening of non-US markets, and our auto industry is now dying. Chrysler is gone, Ford is going and GM is on life support. And you think this is an example of the success of free trade for US?
It's a free market. If the Japanese are selling a car for x that I think is more efficient than the Americans selling a more expensive car for y, then I'll take the Japanese car, unless I'm a business moron. The correct way to save an industry is to make the industry good, not to keep subsidizing it into hell.

Then again, one of the best things the government could do right now for the auto industry is subsidizing...give it money for the specific purpose of getting off its lazy ass and building a ****ing hydrogen car. And then, poof, no more middle east meddling...

(And the instances of examples in this thread are manufacturing examples; i.e. steel closing down and cars closing down. America is moving to a service economy.)
__________________
meet the new boss, same as the old boss
mrmitchell is offline  
Old July 13, 2003, 12:41   #68
mrmitchell
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG RoleplayCall to Power Democracy GameInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamNationStatesPtWDG2 Tabemono
King
 
mrmitchell's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:33
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,394
Quote:
LoneWolf: $41 billion doesn't leave the US every month--there are no fewer dollars in the American economy because of it. This is because the trade deficit has to be made up by overseas investment in the United States.

If the US isn't covering its trade deficit with investment in the US, then value of the dollar declines until the US does cover its trade deficit. Eventually, a falling dollar will make American goods cheaper at home and overseas, which will result in a lower trade deficit.
You sure do know a lot about the Benjamins.
__________________
meet the new boss, same as the old boss
mrmitchell is offline  
Old July 13, 2003, 13:50   #69
optimus2861
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 01:33
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Halifax, NS
Posts: 58
Quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Considering the number of countries that banned Canadian beef after that cow was discovered, why would they be pissed off at us?
Because you're basically siding with the Japanese on this issue instead of with us. Instead of telling the Japanese in no uncertain terms that North American beef is safe, that country-of-origin labelling is unfeasible and that both Canada & the USA have top-of-the-line safety standards in place, and therefore the USA will reopen its borders to Canadian beef immediately and if Japan doesn't like it, tough; you're hemming & hawing on those unreasonable Japanese demands and none of us up here can figure out how you benefit by punishing our beef industry for something that could just as easily have happened to you.

Then you toss in the softwood lumber dispute, the wheat tariff, and the perception is that the USA doesn't want to trade fairly with Canada in industries where Canada can actually *gasp* compete! And/or that the USA will bow to demands from other trading partners instead of from your largest trading partner with whom you have a free trade agreement!
__________________
"If you doubt that an infinite number of monkeys at an infinite number of typewriters would eventually produce the combined works of Shakespeare, consider: it only took 30 billion monkeys and no typewriters." - Unknown
optimus2861 is offline  
Old July 13, 2003, 13:55   #70
DinoDoc
Civilization II Democracy GameApolytoners Hall of Fame
Deity
 
DinoDoc's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:33
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Underwater no one can hear sharks scream
Posts: 11,096
Quote:
Originally posted by optimus2861
And/or that the USA will bow to demands from other trading partners instead of from your largest trading partner with whom you have a free trade agreement!
Until the issue wrt the safety of Canadian beef is settled, why shouldn't we err on the side of caution where public safety is concerned?
DinoDoc is offline  
Old July 13, 2003, 14:46   #71
HershOstropoler
Settler
 
Local Time: 06:33
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
Quote:
Originally posted by DanS
You are roughly as protectionist as the EU. Stop believing your own propaganda.

I don't think this is true, but how rough is rough? For instance, if the EU is twice as protectionist as the US, are they still "roughly" as protectionist?

As evidence that we're less protectionist, I would point to the US routinely allowing a very high trade deficit both in policy and consumer appetite.
Look at the WTO cases the US loses. It is not easy to quantify protectionism, but if you try it like oxfam, you don't find many substantial differences. What would those differences be?

http://www.maketradefair.com/assets/...%20English.pdf

As for the trade deficit, it is a function of your ultralose monetary policy. On the other hand, dollar recycling keeps your financial system alive. It has little to nothing to do with trade policies.
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
HershOstropoler is offline  
Old July 13, 2003, 14:58   #72
Gatekeeper
Mac
King
 
Gatekeeper's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:33
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: United States of America
Posts: 2,306
Y'know, I'm curious as to why some Canadian posters seem to think that joining the EU would solve their problems?

Gatekeeper
__________________
"I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll die defending your right to say it." — Voltaire

"Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart." — Confucius
Gatekeeper is offline  
Old July 13, 2003, 15:03   #73
notyoueither
Civilization III MultiplayerCivilization III PBEMInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamApolytoners Hall of FameCiv4 InterSite DG: Apolyton TeamPolyCast TeamPtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
notyoueither's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:33
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: of naught
Posts: 21,300
Quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Until the issue wrt the safety of Canadian beef is settled, why shouldn't we err on the side of caution where public safety is concerned?
We've poked and prodded. We've looked over hill and dale. We've tested and measured and counted. We've slaughtered herds that had connection with the mad cow. We've figured out where the cow came from (most likely). We have relayed information and cooperated with American investigators. The border remains closed.

The U.S. Secretary of Agriculture, Ann Veneman, said Canadian beef is safe but has yet to give a timeline for when the border will reopen for trade.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...932284305_45//
__________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.
notyoueither is offline  
Old July 13, 2003, 15:13   #74
Gatekeeper
Mac
King
 
Gatekeeper's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:33
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: United States of America
Posts: 2,306
NYE, since when have you known government entities to move like quicksilver?
__________________
"I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll die defending your right to say it." — Voltaire

"Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart." — Confucius
Gatekeeper is offline  
Old July 13, 2003, 15:28   #75
notyoueither
Civilization III MultiplayerCivilization III PBEMInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamApolytoners Hall of FameCiv4 InterSite DG: Apolyton TeamPolyCast TeamPtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
notyoueither's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:33
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: of naught
Posts: 21,300
Hmmm. The border got closed pretty fast. Actually, this issue should not have been this big. We found the cow, border closed, fair enough. Now we've demonstrated there are no more to be found, but the border stays closed due to other issues. Foul.

When combined with the joke of a 12% tarrif on two varieties of Canadian wheat, and the lumber tarrifs, patience up here for Washington's nonsense is growing very thin. btw, these issues are effecting 1 large region (the West). That same region is the same one where most of the energy that the US badly needs is located. It is only a matter of time before support will grow for the federal government to do something to get your attention in a way that will stop the silliness. We don't have very many weapons for a trade war, and we really don't want to have one. However, people are getting fed up to the point where they don't see many choices.
__________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.
notyoueither is offline  
Old July 13, 2003, 15:34   #76
DinoDoc
Civilization II Democracy GameApolytoners Hall of Fame
Deity
 
DinoDoc's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:33
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Underwater no one can hear sharks scream
Posts: 11,096
Quote:
Originally posted by Gatekeeper
Y'know, I'm curious as to why some Canadian posters seem to think that joining the EU would solve their problems?
It's just *****ing and moaning combined with an apparent ignorance of how France treated the UK after thier mad cow scare.
DinoDoc is offline  
Old July 13, 2003, 15:36   #77
HershOstropoler
Settler
 
Local Time: 06:33
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
"how France treated the UK after thier mad cow scare."

Ooooh, what did the evil French do, hmmm?
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
HershOstropoler is offline  
Old July 13, 2003, 15:38   #78
DinoDoc
Civilization II Democracy GameApolytoners Hall of Fame
Deity
 
DinoDoc's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:33
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Underwater no one can hear sharks scream
Posts: 11,096
Quote:
Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Ooooh, what did the evil French do, hmmm?
Ban UK beef. The samething the Canadians are whining about.
DinoDoc is offline  
Old July 13, 2003, 15:39   #79
C0ckney
King
 
Local Time: 06:33
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: All Connections That Have Been Made Are Now Dead
Posts: 2,981
yes, they banned it and kept the ban in place despite a european court ruling, ****ing french.
__________________
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
C0ckney is offline  
Old July 13, 2003, 15:42   #80
notyoueither
Civilization III MultiplayerCivilization III PBEMInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamApolytoners Hall of FameCiv4 InterSite DG: Apolyton TeamPolyCast TeamPtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
notyoueither's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:33
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: of naught
Posts: 21,300
Quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Ban UK beef. The samething the Canadians are whining about.
I guess you'll just be whining when the hydro lines stop sending power and the natural gas pipelines are turned off. Maybe for just a day or two to start.
__________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.
notyoueither is offline  
Old July 13, 2003, 15:50   #81
HershOstropoler
Settler
 
Local Time: 06:33
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
Quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Ban UK beef. The samething the Canadians are whining about.
Nope, the EU banned UK beef, and it was perfectly justified. It is no way comparable to the single incident in Canada.

France maintained its beef ban unlawfully for a while after, one of the few problems we can't handle through direct effect and precedence of EU law. But it will be interesting, as France is liable for that under EU state liability law. The US will never compensate people for illegal trade moves.

Another thing you forget is that the EU, end thereby also the french taxpayer, funded a lot of the costs of the BSE desaster.

And Cockney, if you don't like it, join NAFTA and get lost.
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
HershOstropoler is offline  
Old July 13, 2003, 15:53   #82
DinoDoc
Civilization II Democracy GameApolytoners Hall of Fame
Deity
 
DinoDoc's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:33
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Underwater no one can hear sharks scream
Posts: 11,096
Quote:
Originally posted by HershOstropoler
And Cockney, if you don't like it, join NAFTA and get lost.
That's quite an American atitude you have Roland!
DinoDoc is offline  
Old July 13, 2003, 15:54   #83
C0ckney
King
 
Local Time: 06:33
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: All Connections That Have Been Made Are Now Dead
Posts: 2,981
so if i don't like the french acting ILLEGALLY i can f-off, you're clearly a genius...
__________________
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
C0ckney is offline  
Old July 13, 2003, 16:01   #84
HershOstropoler
Settler
 
Local Time: 06:33
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
Quote:
Originally posted by C0ckney
so if i don't like the french acting ILLEGALLY i can f-off, you're clearly a genius...
The french used a loophole to extend a national ban. Great ****in' story. They're not the only one. Shall we go through the factortame saga, for example? The UK changed the law in the end, so did France.
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
HershOstropoler is offline  
Old July 13, 2003, 16:03   #85
DinoDoc
Civilization II Democracy GameApolytoners Hall of Fame
Deity
 
DinoDoc's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:33
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Underwater no one can hear sharks scream
Posts: 11,096
Quote:
Originally posted by C0ckney
so if i don't like the french acting ILLEGALLY i can f-off, you're clearly a genius...
I think he has a willful blind spot when it comes to issues such as this.
DinoDoc is offline  
Old July 13, 2003, 16:06   #86
HershOstropoler
Settler
 
Local Time: 06:33
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
I'm just an Ulenspiegel...
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
HershOstropoler is offline  
Old July 13, 2003, 16:07   #87
DinoDoc
Civilization II Democracy GameApolytoners Hall of Fame
Deity
 
DinoDoc's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:33
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Underwater no one can hear sharks scream
Posts: 11,096
You're an oiled mirror?
__________________
Rosbifs are destructive scum- Spiffor
I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
If government is big enough to give you everything you want, it is also big enough to take everything you have. - Gerald Ford
Blackwidow24 and FemmeAdonis fan club
DinoDoc is offline  
Old July 13, 2003, 16:10   #88
HershOstropoler
Settler
 
Local Time: 06:33
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
Close. An old mirror....
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
HershOstropoler is offline  
Old July 14, 2003, 01:43   #89
LoneWolf
Settler
 
Local Time: 23:33
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 24
Man, this is high debate.
Clearly the Euros are the superior force for good in the world. Oh, and Canada, too .
LoneWolf is offline  
Old July 14, 2003, 02:19   #90
notyoueither
Civilization III MultiplayerCivilization III PBEMInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamApolytoners Hall of FameCiv4 InterSite DG: Apolyton TeamPolyCast TeamPtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
notyoueither's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:33
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: of naught
Posts: 21,300
No, but if the US wants to talk the talk of being free and open traders, they should walk the walk. Canada is seeing a lot of evidence that the US has forgotten the walk recently and I am not ashamed to point it out.
__________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.
notyoueither is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:33.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team