Pikes and the Great Wall

Scouse Gits · July 16, 2003, 05:20

In my current game my peaceful Mongols (Spotless Republic) are being beset by aggressive Americans, with the GW, who insist upon sneak attacking more or less every fourth turn. By way of war reparations each time they do this I relieve them of a city before accepting their pleas for peace once more.

Now - these cities are defended by Pikemen + GW and I am attacking with (mainly green) Crooks and should be losing them by the shedload - but I am not! It generally takes two Crooks per Pike, sometimes three - surely this does not agree with our received wisdom on Combat Resolution?

There is a rationale that suggests that the Pike's advantage against Horse (hiding behind very spikey fences) should not apply when they are stood on top of large stone walls - but I have never seen any suggestion that this should be the case in Civ.

Does a Pike lose its special defence when behind the GW?

Does a Pike lose its special defence when behind real City Walls?

Am I just a lucky b*stard as SG(2) says?

SG[1]

rah · July 16, 2003, 08:21

Are you taking into account that when you're behind a wall, being fortified doesn't count into your defense?

rek · July 16, 2003, 09:33

hi,

I've got another question about pikemen, and can't find an answer in the many threads of the Grat Library.

What's the defense rate of a pikemen in MP vs. for example a catapult, if I play at double move rate?
Is it *2 against units that usually have 1 move, and 2 in MP?

Boco · July 16, 2003, 21:15

If a Crook is a Crusader, then you're having a little good luck but not that great. On average, I think you can expect to lose 2.7 Crusaders per Pike.

Ming · July 17, 2003, 00:29

Isn't it nice to see what a science it has become

War4ever · July 17, 2003, 00:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Ming
Isn't it nice to see what a science it has become

sire , before we send our men to death, let us calculate the exact odds of the battle and see if they are acceptable to you

well done...with a colorfull chart even i can figure it out

DrSpike · July 17, 2003, 05:27

SG IMO you are just jammy.

Boco · July 17, 2003, 07:14

The 'science' comes in very handy when you're designing a unit mix for a new scenario. Didn't mean to spoil the fun for players.

rah · July 17, 2003, 08:44

Is that utility program available? If so, where?

DrSpike · July 17, 2003, 09:01

I spy an addition to Rah rules coming up.

rah · July 17, 2003, 10:11

I highly doubt it would be used much. Maybe in between games. I can calc the approx odds in my head quite quickly, but it would be nice to see the exact percentage for certain situations.

DrSpike · July 17, 2003, 10:17

Yes, the shortcut provides a reasonably accurate approximation, and most people can do sums like (1*1.5)/2. Doing a bunch of binomial calculations in your head is a little trickier. Fortunately it isn't necessary from a practical gameplay point of view.

Boco · July 17, 2003, 12:22

Quote:

Is that utility program available? If so, where?

It is buried in a 'poly thread or two. Question is, should it be made more available? It's in the hands of ST and a few scenario designers.

I rarely use it during a game. It's not so useful there. Like Rah says, instinct/experience/rough approximations provide a faster and sufficiently accurate answer. Plus when n=1, your result may vary just a little from average.

I posted the screendump to show the modifiers (in case I was wrong) as well as the predicted results.

Scouse Gits · July 17, 2003, 12:29

Thanks all - the problem is now moot.

Washington (GW + MP) is now Mongolia's most Western outpost.

(It took 13 Crooks to subdue 2 Musks + 2 Archers behind GW + real City Walls - which remain standing)

SG[1]

La Fayette · July 18, 2003, 04:39

This guy SG[1] kills so many crusaders (with bad odds) that I guess he is an infidel

SlowThinker · July 19, 2003, 07:34

Quote:

Originally posted by rah
Is that utility program available? If so, where?

Did you hear about GL, greenie?

Quote:

Originally posted by Boco
Question is, should it be made more available? It's in the hands of ST and a few scenario designers.

What do you want to say, Boco?

I think the Boco's calculator is good because you can learn odds for some standard 'ratios':
for example warrior vs. warrior has chance about 39% to win etc.

Ming · July 19, 2003, 16:28

It doesn't look like it includes a surprise attack bonus

SlowThinker · July 19, 2003, 17:04

You can multiply the attack factor by 2 manually (if you can ;-))

rah · July 21, 2003, 09:00

I'm lazy, so I would love someone to post a link.

DrSpike · July 21, 2003, 09:29

I'm also lazy, but it took ludicrously little effort:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=22704

Boco · July 21, 2003, 21:21

Okay, I'll admit I was lazy too, but since there are two versions in the thread, I uploaded the more recent one to my upload directory.

Boco's Civ2 Combat Probability Calc

Unfortunately, the "Open Rules" button is bug-ridden.

Fortunately, the file is currently loaded with the extended original ToT @Units set.

Credits go to... (with long dead links)

rah · July 22, 2003, 08:44

Thanks guys.

:) Smiley · August 5, 2003, 17:14

wow... a program to help you use another program...

rah · August 6, 2003, 09:20

Yep, being an IT Director, I can really appreciate that.