July 27, 2003, 07:20
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#1
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Deity
Local Time: 23:23
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Israel makes a huge mistake.
And there is no doubt that many innocent civilains will die because of it. Sharon is reportedly going to give in to Palestinian demands that imprisioned terrorists be set free. This means that many murders and hardered terrorists will once again be free to walk the streets and commit more acts of terror. As of today the PA has not moved one inch towards disarming the numerous Palestinian terror organizations. Under the road map for peace the PA's one and only obligation is to disarm terrorist organizations.
Once again the PA gets something for nothing and the world is worse off because of it. 
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/...ers/index.html
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July 27, 2003, 07:26
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#2
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Deity
Local Time: 02:23
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So much for all the talk about Sharon not being serious about wanting peace. I can't believe he did this, to be honest.
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July 27, 2003, 07:30
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#3
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Emperor
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If it's not some shady plan where he hopes the released prisoners will create enough trouble to turn the tide against the latest plans for peace and get support for an harder approach on the palestinian question. But I guess that's the conspiracy theorist in me speaking...
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July 27, 2003, 07:33
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#4
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King
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Couldn't Sharon have kept the peace process going by dismantling some settlements instead? Or is that too big a sacrifice compared to releasing terrorists?
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July 27, 2003, 07:35
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#5
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Emperor
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It should however be noted that the larger bulk of the prisoners has not been arrested for terrorist-like activities but more of criminal activities. The Israeli government claims that no one "with blood on his hands" shall be released.
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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Schopenhauer
In GAIS we trust!
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July 27, 2003, 07:35
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#6
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Deity
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Quote:
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If it's not some shady plan where he hopes the released prisoners will create enough trouble to turn the tide against the latest plans for peace and get support for an harder approach on the palestinian question. But I guess that's the conspiracy theorist in me speaking...
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July 27, 2003, 07:37
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#7
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Emperor
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It should also be noted that some, if not most of them, of them was set to released anyhow.
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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Schopenhauer
In GAIS we trust!
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July 27, 2003, 07:46
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#8
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Warlord
Local Time: 07:23
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My gut reaction was Oerdin's, to be honest. My brain read the article and thought "Well, there's 1,000s detained. What's 500 low level members?"
I suppose the challenge is going to be getting them something useful to do, instead of mouldering inside Gaza or the West Bank.
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July 27, 2003, 08:06
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#9
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Emperor
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July 27, 2003, 08:26
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#10
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Emperor
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Noone in Europe will remember that when the next lethal terract occurs. They'll just say "it's their own fault".
I want to migrate.
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July 27, 2003, 08:28
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#11
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Emperor
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and just to clarify, they won't mean it as in "they shouldn't have set them free" but as in "they shouldn't have done so much bad" - "do you remember how they set hudnreds of criminals free? those did this" - "oh, that was only a show. victims of state terrorism did this" - "thank you"
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July 27, 2003, 08:34
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#12
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Emperor
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What i'm really afraid of is that Israel starts to ignore Pal violations again. The terrorist organizations MUST be dismantled, Israel always insisted on it, but now after a few weeks of relative quiet Sharon, just like Rabin, Peres, Netanyahu and Barak before him prefers to ignore possible long term danger in exchange for short term quiet.
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July 27, 2003, 08:36
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#13
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Emperor
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"you see that guy he was a friend of me now he's dead." - "blame Israel" - "thank you"
that friend could be YOU, Eli. now go out and re-arrest those guys.
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July 27, 2003, 08:37
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#14
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Emperor
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Eli
What i'm really afraid of is that Israel starts to ignore Pal violations again. The terrorist organizations MUST be dismantled, Israel always insisted on it, but now after a few weeks of relative quiet Sharon, just like Rabin, Peres, Netanyahu and Barak before him prefers to ignore possible long term danger in exchange for short term quiet.
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July 27, 2003, 08:42
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#15
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Civ4: Colonization Content Editor
Local Time: 07:23
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As much as I wish the Palestinians luck in the struggle for their own country (by diplomatic means, no by terrorism, of course), setting free convicted terrorists is just silly and I really hope, Israel won't have to regret it. I like Sharon even less than Bush, but in this case I wish him good luck.
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July 27, 2003, 08:56
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#16
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Emperor
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I ONCE AGAIN post the Israeli proposal at Taba to show you that they COULD have their own state on 95% of the west bank, and more land in Israel proper, to have passage to the Gaza strip, that would've been fully theirs.
The map is from a european newspaper, and this proposal is documented. The last israeli proposal is on the right, and it even allows for some palestinians to return to Israel, IIRC. the last palestinian proposal calls for the return of all refugees. you can google search it.
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July 27, 2003, 09:04
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#17
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Emperor
Local Time: 09:23
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That's a proposal I could agree too, had the Ancient City remained in Israeli hands.
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"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master" - Commissioner Pravin Lal.
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July 27, 2003, 09:12
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#18
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Emperor
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I wouldn't mind the ancient city split, as long as it was REALLY split, so that the jews would have rights to the temple mount as well, not like now, that it is de-facto palestinian.
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July 27, 2003, 09:58
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#19
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Emperor
Local Time: 08:23
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the camp david 2000 one contains Israeli settlements? 
looks neat, though us euro lefties would prefer to see a united and peaceful star-fleet-esque J-town 
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July 27, 2003, 09:58
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#20
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Emperor
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No one seems to have taken my theory seriously. 
And, yeah, the Taba proposal looks good to me, Pals should be fools if they didn't go for this, for now 
Couldn't someone just blow up that damned temple mount, it would make it all a tad more easy.
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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Schopenhauer
In GAIS we trust!
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July 27, 2003, 10:05
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#21
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Emperor
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the sand of the temple mount, if heated properly... you can imagine where it goes from here
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July 27, 2003, 10:13
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#22
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Settler
Local Time: 07:23
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Azazel
I ONCE AGAIN post the Israeli proposal at Taba to show you that they COULD have their own state on 95% of the west bank, and more land in Israel proper, to have passage to the Gaza strip, that would've been fully theirs.
The map is from a european newspaper, and this proposal is documented. The last israeli proposal is on the right, and it even allows for some palestinians to return to Israel, IIRC. the last palestinian proposal calls for the return of all refugees. you can google search it.
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Uhm... the Taba proposals did no longer include transitory Israeli control, Israeli corridors, and a security zone along the Jordan?
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“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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July 27, 2003, 10:21
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#23
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Emperor
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Look at the ****ing map. Camp david didn't have Israeli corridors as well, though there was "transitory Israeli control" in the jordan valley.
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July 27, 2003, 10:21
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#24
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Deity
Local Time: 01:23
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Azazel
and more land in Israel proper, to have passage to the Gaza strip, that would've been fully theirs.
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Why is it important that they have a passage to the Gaza Strip to and from the West Bank?
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July 27, 2003, 10:26
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#25
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Emperor
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Cause getting a pass to Israel would be a tad harder than to an american getting a pass to Canada. (Alaska comparison)
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July 27, 2003, 10:26
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#26
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Deity
Local Time: 01:23
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And?
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July 27, 2003, 10:37
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#27
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Emperor
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I dunno. they asked for it.
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July 27, 2003, 10:43
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#28
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Settler
Local Time: 07:23
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Azazel
Look at the ****ing map. Camp david didn't have Israeli corridors as well, though there was "transitory Israeli control" in the jordan valley.
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1. I think Arafat should have taken the Camp Daiv deal, despite its shortcomings.
2. What you say however looks questionable. Moratinos' non-paper still mentions the corridors.
http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/cah...palestine+taba
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“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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July 27, 2003, 10:54
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#29
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Emperor
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quote, please. cannot find it.
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July 27, 2003, 10:57
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#30
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Settler
Local Time: 07:23
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"The Israeli side wished to count "assets" such as Israelis "safe passage/corridor" proposal as being part of the land swap, even though the proposal would not give Palestine sovereignty over these "assets"."
"The Palestinian side further maintained that land not under Palestinian sovereignty such as the Israeli proposal regarding a "safe passage/corridor" as well as economic interests are not included in the calculation of the swap."
So they were in there, but open for negotiation if I understand that correctly.
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“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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