DESIGN: CTP2 Bugs and alterations [fix list]

[Ekmek]

CTP2 doesnt have to be like RoN but gathering resources could be used as an economic path of the game.

We could have resources that are: strategic, bonus, and luxury, like Civ3
then also have commodities created from resources that you send like old Civ2 Caravans for gold to other cities.

Then WONDER goods/resources that offer a bonus like combat modifier, healing, movement.

The consumption part I think would be nice, an added tab that just should how much coming in and how much used would make oil a crunch if your units each use one oil and your factories use x number, then your population use 1/10 for uxury use problems and wars could stat over resources.

An economic victory could also be possble by having the goal of building a monopoly by controlling all of a certain resource.

Maybe there should be a CTP2 economics thread for resources, logistics, goods etc since these are some of the biggest ideas people want from Civ.

[Maquiladora]

When i think of fixes and improvements i think mainly of MP, with that in mind and without getting too carried away,

- Fix Rush-buy bug
- Option to turn off/customize ruin outcomes. (tech ruins are very unbalancing)
- (Option to) Remove military and science graph, perhaps only reveal it to a player with spying.
- Create a mirrored map or resource-balanced starting locations as barley said.

edit:

- Fix Right-click bug to find stealth units.
- Fix PBEM. Fix Diplomacy in PBEM and Hotseat of course.

[Peter Triggs]

Maq's got a very good point here. CTP1, which is a very old game, is still quite popular because of it's multiplayer capability. I think fixing CTP2's MP should be quite a high priority.

[J Bytheway]

Unfortunately, since (as has just been discovered) we have the code for the unpatched version, the internet/LAN MP performance is even worse than it would be under normal CTP2, and I doubt that anyone around here is an expert in network programming (but I hope I am wrong) so fixing that will be tough...

We should be able to do something with the PBEM/hotseat modes fairly easily, though.

[Locutus]

Yes, MP is a biggie and I don't think we can really put out a patch that disables the sound, so finding a replacement for the Miles Sound System should be pretty high on the list as well (I don't care too much about the music, WinAmp does a better job in that respect already -- but regular in-game sounds ought to be there).

[ískallin]

Well what's in this file is about all the implentions that i would like to see...

Though i THINK most of this is doable through SLIC

[J Bytheway]

Well, it required me to hunt through many files, but I think I've fixed the rush buy bug . I'm going out now, but will post details on my return.

[MrBaggins]

I've found the source and I believe solution for the non existent Veteran effect bug. Mentioned here.

Actually, veteran status is useful at the moment. Only for bombarding though... :/

[J Bytheway]

Originally posted by J Bytheway
Well, it required me to hunt through many files, but I think I've fixed the rush buy bug . I'm going out now, but will post details on my return.

Details here.

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Peter Triggs
CTP1, which is a very old game, is still quite popular because of it's multiplayer capability.

Really? Some people say there is an older version of Civ3 that is still purty popular.

Originally posted by st_swithin
[expletives deleted] A* algorithm [expletives deleted]

Ah, our little Ray of CtP2 Sunshine! There's nothing wrong with A* itself, it is the way CtP2 does it that sucks. No need to reinvent pathfinding.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by E
CTP2 doesnt have to be like RoN but gathering resources could be used as an economic path of the game.

Isn't it already the case?

We could have resources that are: strategic, bonus, and luxury, like Civ3

IMO, the strategical resources is one of the worst thing ever implemented in a Cilization like game. Though the concept sounds interesting it is a "fun killing" one. We should not forget that in Civ like games, every civilization is growing on a territory that is as big as a continent, what is the point of adding those resources. The complex commercial relationships between the nations in our world can't be reproduced accurately in a civ game, what you can trade directly with a nation you are at war with, you can trade it with a nation that is trading with the nation you are at war with but then the nation you are at war with should be able to threat the nations trading the resources with you... etc.

I don't like Civ3 and I don't want CtP2 to mimic its "features".

...then also have commodities created from resources that you send like old Civ2 Caravans for gold to other cities.

Fortunately, CtP and CtP2 have abstracted the trading concept and you don't have to send caravans though the map.

Then WONDER goods/resources that offer a bonus like combat modifier, healing, movement.

All this is already abstracted in the game with the new units you can build with each new technology and the fact the units are healing more quicly in your cities.

The consumption part I think would be nice, an added tab that just should how much coming in and how much used would make oil a crunch if your units each use one oil and your factories use x number, then your population use 1/10 for uxury use problems and wars could stat over resources.

Once again this is introducing too much micromanagement. Wars are already started about resources in CtP2 but this is abstracted through the need for space and good city sites.

An economic victory could also be possble by having the goal of building a monopoly by controlling all of a certain resource.

Maybe there should be a CTP2 economics thread for resources, logistics, goods etc since these are some of the biggest ideas people want from Civ.

It should be clear now that I don't want CtP2 to look like Civ3 even remotely. I would like the hard coded changes in CtP2 to be modular so that people can add the features they want in their CtP2 game and discard those they don't like or don't want.

Another possibility would be to allow the player to select the options he want to use or discard through a CtP2 window when you are starting a new game.

[Ekmek]

"It should be clear now that I don't want CtP2 to look like Civ3 even remotely. I would like the hard coded changes in CtP2 to be modular so that people can add the features they want in their CtP2 game and discard those they don't like or don't want.

Another possibility would be to allow the player to select the options he want to use or discard through a CtP2 window when you are starting a new game." - Tamerlin

I agree this stuff should be moddable and a choice, but for a lot of options it would have to be hard coded. It would be nice if when you start a game you can select what features to add to the game, more micromanging economics for those of us that like resources and/or a lot of cool features that fans have added to exploit the potential of having the source code. Or just a debugged CtP2 which is what it sounds like you want.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by E
Or just a debugged CtP2 which is what it sounds like you want.

You are right, I am primarily waiting for a "bug free" CtP2 and for things that are developing the original CtP2 concepts, exactly like the SAP2 mod: "CtP2 as it should be."

On the other hand I am also waiting for things that are really improving the game (at least in my opinion of course) like Peter Trigg's Unit Updater, Martin's City Capture Options and AI improvements. I am actually ready to accept any change as far as it is not perverting what I believe is the spirit of CtP2. For example, one important feature of this game is the emphasis on Macromanagement over Micromanagement. IMO, Ctp2 has reached the perfect balance between Micro and Macromanagement and I would not support any change that would require more Micromanagement unless it is a tremenduous improvement of the game. Unfortunately, I don't rate Strategic Resources as being a tremenduous addition to the game. In the same way, I would not support a mod that would replace the Public Work concept with Workers, I would not even consider testing it unless there is a way to disable the "Worker Option".

[MrBaggins]

Well.. theoretically, CtP had strategic resources: Monopoly goods.

The only reason why they weren't included in CtP2, is that they ALWAYS seemed to benefit the human player. Why? Because the AI cannot strategically defend a map point.

In improving the military AI, we should consider point defense as well as city defense. This would allow us to reintroduce strategic resources such as monopoly goods or requisite goods for units.

[Ekmek]

Mr Bagins on defense I think the AI should have not only the point defense (like tiles with an arbitrary value assigned) and city defense. But also Border defense or choke point defense. Civ3 AI sees defense as only cities, like ctp2 does i guess. Perhaps these could be unit assignments or coded as AI strategies.

[MrBaggins]

Its a massively difficult theoretical AND practical problem to solve. Its going to take time and effort. No two ways about it.

[Ekmek]

a lot of bugs have been addressed and tested and fixed already. Is there a documentation team tracking this?

[J Bytheway]

Nope. Documentation is a significant weak point at present...

[Straybow]

Did anyone mention roadbuilding outside the empire's borders? Could be done the same way fortresses are done: any tile with a unit on it would be eligible.

[MrBaggins]

I'd prefer to put a flag on a unit, to make it possible, so you could choose to have it for all, some or no units.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Straybow
Did anyone mention roadbuilding outside the empire's borders? Could be done the same way fortresses are done: any tile with a unit on it would be eligible.

I would prefer every tile adjacent to a road to be eligible provided the said tile is not in the territory of another nation.

[J Bytheway]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
I would prefer every tile adjacent to a road to be eligible provided the said tile is not in the territory of another nation.

That was the CTP1 method, and it worked well.

[ahenobarb]

Fix:
-The AI doesn't build Ports, Drilling Platforms, Trading Posts, Outlet Malls, or Nature Preserves.
- If you select what track you want to hear in the Options>Music screen, the music is shut off.
- allow multi-dimensional arrays in SLIC
- make the unique unit identifier accessible in SLIC
- The AI doesn't build forts ...
- ... because the AI doesn't know how to use forts.

Is a list of these being kept anywhere?

[Peter Triggs]

Straybow:
Some people say there is an older version of Civ3 that is still purty popular.

Ming:
I think the fact that there are as many people still playing Civ II MP here as playing Civ III MP sums up one of the problems. It's true that many of the old MP crowd never warmed up to the new game. A shame... we were hoping for so much more.

Well now we have a chance to do something about it, and hopefully attract them to our version of CTP2++. The mechanics of multiplaying is something I don't know anything about; but like J Bytheway said, hopefully someone will turn up who knows about this stuff.

[Tamerlin]

Another interface alteration that could be useful, when you are checking the various ranks (military, economy... ), the names of the various civilizations appearing on the right of the window should be listed according to the current rank from top to bottom. This would greatly ease the reading of the graphs especially if you are playing with many civs.

[hexagonian]

A feature from civ3 that would work well in CTP2.

One thing I would like to change is the need to send a diplomat to establish an embassy (this is a hassle on extremely large maps) - rather have a player possibly pay out gold to do so, and have the success rate based on regard levels.

(...although Peter probably has done this already via SLIC)

However, keep the spy/espionage/terror units as is. That is one micromanagement issue that I enjoy.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by ahenobarb
Fix:
-The AI doesn't build Ports, Drilling Platforms, Trading Posts, Outlet Malls, or Nature Preserves.
- The AI doesn't build forts ...
- ... because the AI doesn't know how to use forts.

Both of these issues can be handled via SLIC/txtfile changes, as they both occur in Cradle.

However, the AI could use some help in the strategic use of forts. It will build them, but does not use them all that well. (In Cradle, forts serve a much more important purpose than in the vanilla game because they are the only place to do a 1-turn heal)

[Peter Triggs]

they are the only place to do a 1-turn heal

It shouldn't be too difficult to give forts the same healing rates as cities. Gotta find out where they do it though.

[st_swithin]

Originally posted by Straybow

Quote:

Originally posted by st_swithin [expletives deleted] A* algorithm [expletives deleted]

Ah, our little Ray of CtP2 Sunshine! There's nothing wrong with A* itself, it is the way CtP2 does it that sucks. No need to reinvent pathfinding.

What can I say? It's easier to bag on the parts of the game I don't understand than the ones I probably screwed up myself. When the high-level stuff goes to poo, try to convince everyone else to reinvent the wheel and maybe they won't notice you have no idea what you're doing.

[J Bytheway]

Originally posted by Peter Triggs
It shouldn't be too difficult to give forts the same healing rates as cities. Gotta find out where they do it though.

I already pointed it out, I think in the "miscellaneous source findings" thread...