Thread Tools
Old July 28, 2003, 16:39   #1
Yahweh Sabaoth
King
 
Yahweh Sabaoth's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:28
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: The Heavens
Posts: 1,167
Clipping the Celtic Wings
Perhaps this thread will be defunct when Conquests is released, complete with new civ traits, but in the meantime...

...who here has problems with the Celts consistently becoming a large, and difficult to subdue, empire in your world, unless you're lucky enough to wipe them out in the early game? Raise your hands!

Well, I consistently find that if the Celts are allowed to unleash their swordsmen across whatever continent they're on, they end up taking a big chunk of it for themselves... this translates into more empire-building power for them, made easier I suppose by the religious trait...

...and, generally, the Celts end up with a very impressive army, at whatever stage in the game one must confront them.

I don't like to take the Celts on when they first build their Gaelic Swordsmen. After all, that's a whup-ass unit, and I prefer to leave the whup-ass can closed early in the game. I often invite the Celts into MAs against my targets (especially if the target is far from the Celtic core) just to keep the Celts off my back... but this often seems to backfire, if the Celts win victories and gain cities I covet.

So, then, I solicit any advice anyone can spare regarding the Celts, and keeping them in their proper place. Obviously, if you're lucky enough to start near them, you can put them down and keep them from iron. But if you're not, what do you do?
__________________
You can't fight in here! This is the WAR room!
Yahweh Sabaoth is offline  
Old July 28, 2003, 17:01   #2
CerberusIV
lifer
C4WDG United Dungeon DwellersC4BtSDG Templars
Emperor
 
CerberusIV's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:28
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: on the Emerald Isle
Posts: 5,316
I have never found the celts to be that strong in my games and I reduced the shield cost of the gallic swordsman to 40.

Brennus is actually one of the more reasonable AI leaders to negotiate with. Keep your military up to strength and the celts will probably leave you alone.

They are strongest on pangaea maps so you could play continents or archipelago. Also turn cultural linking off as they don't do well against the mediterranean civs or any industrious civ.
__________________
Never give an AI an even break.
CerberusIV is offline  
Old July 28, 2003, 17:27   #3
GhengisFarb™
lifer
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG Glory of WarCivilization II Democracy GameCivilization III PBEMC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamCiv4 SP Democracy Game
Deity
 
GhengisFarb™'s Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:28
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 11,289
I have been finding the exact opposite. I can't figure out anyway to keep the Celts in existence through the late Middle Ages, they always get wiped out.
GhengisFarb™ is offline  
Old July 28, 2003, 17:36   #4
Rhothaerill
supporter
C4DG SarantiumPtWDG Vox ControliCivilization III Democracy GamePtWDG2 TabemonoInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamCivilization III PBEMC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamApolyton Storywriters' GuildApolyton UniversityCivilization IV PBEMC4WDG Huygen's UnionC3CDG Euphorica
Emperor
 
Rhothaerill's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:28
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Vincent is back!
Posts: 6,844
Quote:
Originally posted by GhengisFarb
I have been finding the exact opposite. I can't figure out anyway to keep the Celts in existence through the late Middle Ages, they always get wiped out.
That's the way it is for me too. I haven't ever seen the Celts become a major player in SP games. It has the traits to go either way, and a good warlike UU, but it just seems like it gets caught in the middle and tries to be all things...succeeding at none.

As for advice on dealing with powerful Celts. As you stated you can practice resource denial if you're close to them. If you're not close to them then try to get some allies to declare war on them and fight your battle for you.
Rhothaerill is offline  
Old July 28, 2003, 17:47   #5
Yahweh Sabaoth
King
 
Yahweh Sabaoth's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:28
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: The Heavens
Posts: 1,167
Hmmm, well, I feel a bit stupid posting about what I assumed was a common problem... I too have seen the Celts wiped out, generally early on, but far too often I've seen them grow to be big bad boys, along with Carthage.

In so far as encouraging neighbors to attack the Celts, I have practiced this tactic unsuccessfully as well.

My current predicament: I am playing as the Zulus, located in the center of my continent. To the Northwest are the Arabs (beyond them, the English), to the Northeast the Babylonians (beyond them, the French and Germans). To the south are the Spanish, and to the West, where they helped me divide the Ottoman Empire, the Celts. To their West are the tiny Vikings.

The Impi is an alright unit to deal with onrushing Gaelic swordsmen, but I'm in a war with the Arabs now, and am just beginning to put the infrastructure in place to wage long, costly wars.
__________________
You can't fight in here! This is the WAR room!
Yahweh Sabaoth is offline  
Old July 28, 2003, 18:13   #6
ChrisiusMaximus
Civilization III PBEMApolyton Storywriters' GuildCivilization III Democracy GameC3CDG Blood Oath HordeC4DG The HordeC4BtSDG Rabbits of CaerbannogCiv4 SP Democracy GameCivilization IV PBEMC4WDG éirich tuireann
Emperor
 
ChrisiusMaximus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:28
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Staffordshire England
Posts: 8,321
The Celts are indeed a strong opponent if left unchecked and allowed to dominate their continent, I have just had a long and brutal war as Egypt fighting the Celts in a late game modern war.

One suggestion play as the Celts then you solve your problem.
__________________
A proud member of the "Apolyton Story Writers Guild".There are many great stories at the Civ 3 stories forum, do yourself a favour and visit the forum. Lose yourself in one of many epic tales and be inspired to write yourself, as I was.
ChrisiusMaximus is offline  
Old July 28, 2003, 22:09   #7
vmxa1
PtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
vmxa1's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:28
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oviedo, Fl
Posts: 14,103
The game I am playing now is the first time I recalled the Celts lasting into the modern age.
They only just now got into a war with me and that is the reason they are still here.
The Koreans were the first threat, then I chopped them some. It became Japan and then another unusal civ for me, the Greeks.
I am chopping them now. India and Germany are on an island together and have not been in the action.
Rome was the civ closest to me, so they were first out.
vmxa1 is offline  
Old July 29, 2003, 00:52   #8
Solomwi
lifer
C3CDG Desolation RowPtWDG2 Monty PythonCiv4 SP Democracy GameApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering StormC4BtSDG Templars
Emperor
 
Solomwi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:28
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Don King of the Apolyton HLA Movement
Posts: 3,283
The only time the Celts frighten me is in the Iron Age. Playing on huge maps pretty much exclusively, though, I can usually hold off conflict until the GS isn't such a terror. At that point, I've never had much trouble taking them out at my leisure. They still put up a good fight, but not enough to put the outcome in doubt.
__________________
"They say if you give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. But if you teach a man to fish...then he has to get a fishing license. But he doesn't have any money, so he has to get a job and enter the social security system. And he has to file taxes, and you're gonna audit the poor son of a ***** because he's not really good at math. You pull the IRS van up to his house and take everything. You take his velvet Elvis and his toothbrush and his penis pump and that all goes up for auction with the burden of proof on you because you forgot to carry the 1. All because you wanted to eat a fish, and you couldn't even cook the fish because you need a permit for an open flame."
- Doug Stanhope
Solomwi is offline  
Old July 29, 2003, 07:55   #9
Cort Haus
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
Cort Haus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:28
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: London
Posts: 12,012
Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus
One suggestion play as the Celts then you solve your problem.


I love playing those orange-haired spear-slicers! If playing against them, I usually cosy up to them till their danger passes.
Cort Haus is offline  
Old July 31, 2003, 00:20   #10
Theseus
PtWDG Gathering StormApolyton UniversityApolytoners Hall of FameBtS Tri-LeagueC4DG Gathering StormApolyCon 06 Participants
Emperor
 
Theseus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:28
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm!
Posts: 8,907


Future AU game: you are [the worst early/mid civ...tbd], crap land, missing resources, and are surrounded by the bad boys, who have it all. And, oh, btw, aggression is dialed up.

Have a nice day ....

__________________
The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.
Theseus is offline  
Old July 31, 2003, 02:41   #11
DaveMcW
Prince
 
DaveMcW's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:28
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 699
*cough*AU 208*cough
DaveMcW is offline  
Old July 31, 2003, 10:02   #12
Yahweh Sabaoth
King
 
Yahweh Sabaoth's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:28
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: The Heavens
Posts: 1,167
Hey, AU 208 is a slightly different premise... besides, the Iroquois were nearby, and, despite their *****in' UU, I don't think they truly qualify as the "bad boys"...
__________________
You can't fight in here! This is the WAR room!
Yahweh Sabaoth is offline  
Old July 31, 2003, 19:57   #13
vmxa1
PtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
vmxa1's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:28
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oviedo, Fl
Posts: 14,103
Well it mets most of those criteria, not the surround, but you sure have no resources and the land at the start sucked.
vmxa1 is offline  
Old August 1, 2003, 10:12   #14
Yahweh Sabaoth
King
 
Yahweh Sabaoth's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:28
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: The Heavens
Posts: 1,167
Well, that is true.

BTW, I just took out the Celts in my most recent game... after a MA against the Arabs in which the Celts captured Najaf and two other cities, and I captured the rest, the Celts were polite enough to retreat all their Gaelic Swordsmen and Medival Infantry to those cities... I noticed that it is actually much more helpful to wait until the Celts have upgraded their GSs... sure, Med. Inf.s have 1 more point of offense, but they sure can't move as quick... it's easier to pick off a 4/2/1 unit than a 3/2/2 unit, that's for sure, and the AI upgraded 90% of their swordsmen.

I made sure, of course, that I took out the Celts before they had Chivalry. I think this helped a lot... their infrastructure is typically shoddy around this time, so cutting off their iron supply is easier... letting them get knights, and then having to face a large army of vet/elite knights, is a lot scarier than facing down a large army of vet/elite med. inf., IMO...
__________________
You can't fight in here! This is the WAR room!
Yahweh Sabaoth is offline  
Old August 2, 2003, 00:34   #15
Catt
PtWDG Gathering StormApolyton University
King
 
Catt's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:28
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: California - SF Bay Area
Posts: 2,120
FWIW, I view the Celts as a dangerous early-game neighbor, but a helpful long-term AI. They might present a direct challenge early, but if I can avoid a costly war (as opposed to a "not costly" war) with them, they can do a lot of dirty work for me. I find the Celts often acquire a large empire early but are woefully inept at managing it later. If the Celts are distant and beat up on AI civs that otherwise have an inherent advantage, then Brennus is a good friend.

Catt
Catt is offline  
Old August 2, 2003, 03:22   #16
zorbop
Civilization III Democracy Game
Warlord
 
zorbop's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:28
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: st louis
Posts: 281
i often have problems with the celts, but normally they are wiped out when 12 AI civs all declair war on them.

i've noticed the aztecs and americans also become VERY powerful.
aztec seems expected, but the americans confuse me. as a civ they royally suck, but the AI does so well with them...
zorbop is offline  
Old August 2, 2003, 08:11   #17
Last Conformist
King
 
Last Conformist's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:28
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: of Outer Space
Posts: 2,210
The Celts have never been a trouble to me. The Gallic Swordsman is a bit to expensive to be a truly great threat - Mounted Warriors or Immortals are much more scary.
__________________
Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?

It's no good (from an evolutionary point of view) to have the physique of Tarzan if you have the sex drive of a philosopher. -- Michael Ruse
The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- Elok
Last Conformist is offline  
Old August 2, 2003, 15:34   #18
Cort Haus
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
Cort Haus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:28
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: London
Posts: 12,012
Quote:
Originally posted by zorbop
but the americans confuse me. as a civ they royally suck, but the AI does so well with them...
The Americans are a good builder civ. Industrious is the best trait, and with Expansionist you can get a granary up v. quick. Add to that the chance of free settlers from huts and you can get a strong start.

The AI does OK with them because Industrious is the easiest trait for it to exploit.
Cort Haus is offline  
Old August 4, 2003, 10:14   #19
Yahweh Sabaoth
King
 
Yahweh Sabaoth's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:28
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: The Heavens
Posts: 1,167
Quote:
Originally posted by Catt
FWIW, I view the Celts as a dangerous early-game neighbor, but a helpful long-term AI. They might present a direct challenge early, but if I can avoid a costly war (as opposed to a "not costly" war) with them, they can do a lot of dirty work for me. I find the Celts often acquire a large empire early but are woefully inept at managing it later. If the Celts are distant and beat up on AI civs that otherwise have an inherent advantage, then Brennus is a good friend.

Catt
They can be managed, and Brennus can be a good friend, but I'd have to disagree slightly about the infrastructure point. The Celtic infrastructure is certainly sub-par, but compared to the German infrastructure around the same time, it's golden, and it's often effective enough by the late-medival/industrial age to be a problem to any invader (esp. if the Celts have 15-20 cities)
__________________
You can't fight in here! This is the WAR room!
Yahweh Sabaoth is offline  
Old August 5, 2003, 13:50   #20
Catt
PtWDG Gathering StormApolyton University
King
 
Catt's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:28
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: California - SF Bay Area
Posts: 2,120
Quote:
Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth

They can be managed, and Brennus can be a good friend, but I'd have to disagree slightly about the infrastructure point. The Celtic infrastructure is certainly sub-par, but compared to the German infrastructure around the same time, it's golden, and it's often effective enough by the late-medival/industrial age to be a problem to any invader (esp. if the Celts have 15-20 cities)
Well, I'm not sure what you mean specifically with respect to the infrastructure. In the majority of my games, if Brennus survives into the early industrial age, he tends to have been trimmed and is an insignificant runt civ, or he is a sprawling civ laden with a ton of somewhat outdated units but without the ability to compete on tech research. This tends to turn into a vicious cycle -- Brennus is more "powerful" than a more compact, more developed neighbor; Brennus is falling back in the tech/econ race; Brennus decides to beat up on the neighbor to even the playing field; the war is inconsequential in terms of Brennus catching up; but Brennus may slow down the more developed neighbor.

I just can't clearly remember a good instance where a powerful (military and econ) Celtic empire prospered well into the Industrial Age -- whereas I can clearly remember numerous such instances with a wide swath of the other civs.

Catt
Catt is offline  
Old August 5, 2003, 14:01   #21
Yahweh Sabaoth
King
 
Yahweh Sabaoth's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:28
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: The Heavens
Posts: 1,167
Well, I'd have to admit it goes both ways. But whereas, I'm not so scared (just irritated) to see the French sizable, or the Germans, or pretty much any civ, I am scared to see the Celts sizable by this time - they tend to be behind in tech, and I tend to be able to defend myself against them, but ALL THOSE KNIGHTS, even if they're just knights, are STILL a major pain, and if the Celts are allowed to get Cavalry, they will build a zillion of 'em. And that is a major headache, no matter what state of their union.

And very often I have seen the Celts take advantage of their GS, beat up all their neighbors in the early-mid game, and come out as a power to be reckoned with by the industrial ages. If they don't border me, that is... I tried to swallow any civs they might have in mind whole.

Then again, I have limited experience to be sure.
__________________
You can't fight in here! This is the WAR room!
Yahweh Sabaoth is offline  
Old August 11, 2003, 00:23   #22
johncmcleod
Prince
 
johncmcleod's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:28
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 551
I started playing with the Celts and I'm addicted. The religious trait has given me a very powerful culture, and I have a very well trained army. I have a bunch of Gallic Swordsmen and I completely wiped out all of the Iroquois League (every city razed every captured worker disbanded) with the loss of like 2 units. I am now beating up the Americans. I probably have the largest military in the world, and I started on a continent with a bunch of other civs, whereas many of the other civs have large islands to themselves. The problem is I am having a hard time keeping up with technology. Everyone except Babylon is a couple of techs ahead of me, and everyone is annoyed with me except for two other civs who are polite and one is furious with me (not including America).
__________________
"The first man who, having fenced off a plot of land, thought of saying, 'This is mine' and found people simple enough to believe him was the real founder of civil society. How many crimes, wars, murders, how many miseries and horrors might the human race had been spared by the one who, upon pulling up the stakes or filling in the ditch, had shouted to his fellow men: 'Beware of listening to this imposter; you are lost if you forget the fruits of the earth belong to all and that the earth belongs to no one." - Jean-Jacques Rousseau
johncmcleod is offline  
Old August 11, 2003, 01:38   #23
vmxa1
PtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
vmxa1's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:28
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oviedo, Fl
Posts: 14,103
johncmcleod post a save. Lets see why this is occurring.
vmxa1 is offline  
Old August 11, 2003, 12:30   #24
johncmcleod
Prince
 
johncmcleod's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:28
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 551
I'll try again. It doesn't seem to be working. I click reply and it doesn't take me there.
__________________
"The first man who, having fenced off a plot of land, thought of saying, 'This is mine' and found people simple enough to believe him was the real founder of civil society. How many crimes, wars, murders, how many miseries and horrors might the human race had been spared by the one who, upon pulling up the stakes or filling in the ditch, had shouted to his fellow men: 'Beware of listening to this imposter; you are lost if you forget the fruits of the earth belong to all and that the earth belongs to no one." - Jean-Jacques Rousseau
johncmcleod is offline  
Old August 11, 2003, 12:36   #25
johncmcleod
Prince
 
johncmcleod's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:28
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 551
save
OK, here it is. If anyone has any suggestions for this game I'd really appreciate it. I have unpatched PTW with some minor mods. The biggest one was I renamed some of the civs (Celts to Celtia, Mongols to Mongolia, etc.). I also redid the Iroquois. They are now the Iroquois League complete with real city names and Iroquois leaders. I also changed marines to 10.8 and made them a little bit more expensive. And, I will post my military history of Celtia (I copied Solomwi).
__________________
"The first man who, having fenced off a plot of land, thought of saying, 'This is mine' and found people simple enough to believe him was the real founder of civil society. How many crimes, wars, murders, how many miseries and horrors might the human race had been spared by the one who, upon pulling up the stakes or filling in the ditch, had shouted to his fellow men: 'Beware of listening to this imposter; you are lost if you forget the fruits of the earth belong to all and that the earth belongs to no one." - Jean-Jacques Rousseau
johncmcleod is offline  
Old August 11, 2003, 12:36   #26
vmxa1
PtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
vmxa1's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:28
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oviedo, Fl
Posts: 14,103
You have to select the "post reply" as oppose to the quick reply. Then you will have a browse option to attach files with. The file must be under the max size, so you may need to zip it if it is very large.
It must met the file type conventions. This should not be a problem for an early game sav file.
vmxa1 is offline  
Old August 11, 2003, 12:42   #27
johncmcleod
Prince
 
johncmcleod's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:28
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 551
I figured out the problem. The save is on another computer without the internet. I put it on a disk and brought it to the one with the internet. Apparently the computer can't read it. I tried putting it on the hard drive but it wouldn't work. I'll post the military history and see if I can figure this out.
Attached Files:
File Type: doc j3history.doc (17.2 KB, 2 views)
__________________
"The first man who, having fenced off a plot of land, thought of saying, 'This is mine' and found people simple enough to believe him was the real founder of civil society. How many crimes, wars, murders, how many miseries and horrors might the human race had been spared by the one who, upon pulling up the stakes or filling in the ditch, had shouted to his fellow men: 'Beware of listening to this imposter; you are lost if you forget the fruits of the earth belong to all and that the earth belongs to no one." - Jean-Jacques Rousseau
johncmcleod is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:28.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team