View Poll Results: How do we want to allocate the Xinners and tax sliders?
Maximize science (so long as we don't run a deficit). 3 30.00%
Maximize taxes. 2 20.00%
Something else, here's my nation-saving idea below: 3 30.00%
Let the City Planner decide what's best while I try to figure out how to open this banana. 2 20.00%
Voters: 10. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Thread Tools
Old July 29, 2003, 10:18   #1
Six Thousand Year Old Man
Civilization II Succession Games
King
 
Six Thousand Year Old Man's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:30
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Ad Rock
Posts: 2,665
What do we Xin for?
We are languishing in what looks like third place in the power polls.

Currently, we are researching techs at a rate of 27 turns, and running a 30 g surplus /turn.

Maximizing Taxmen and 70% tax gets us 81 gold a turn, but science would be reduced to 138 turns/tech.

Maximizing scientists and science at 70% as obiwan suggested, would get us to 10 turns/tech (and a large deficit, about 21 coins/turn, so we couldn't do this for long).

The real returns on either extreme strategy would be somewhat less, because we have to un-Xin the cities every other turn. The figures above are based on having all cities Xinning at once (which we can't do).

Putting this into context... we have a lot of diplomats drawing near the American cities. While we naturally want to pick up some techs on our own, the plethora of diplomats could allow us to steal some of the 'murrican's techs. Moreover, with enough cash, we might be able to buy some of their smaller cities (and pick up a tech in the purchase of course). Maximizing taxes would make this easier, of course.

So... what do we want to do?
__________________
"I'm a guy - I take everything seriously except other people's emotions"

"Never play cards with any man named 'Doc'. Never eat at any place called 'Mom's'. And never, ever...sleep with anyone whose troubles are worse than your own." - Nelson Algren
"A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic." - Joseph Stalin (attr.)
Six Thousand Year Old Man is offline  
Old July 29, 2003, 15:00   #2
Ben Kenobi
Civilization II Democracy GameCivilization II Succession GamesCivilization II Multiplayer
Emperor
 
Ben Kenobi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:30
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 18,269


Remember, our deficit of 21 coins per turn also reduces because of the fact that we can't xin every turn, and the turns that we stop xinning we can switch to tax.

To calculate our real deficit, I need to know the total coins generated even with full xinning.

Secondly, what are we doing during the non-xin turn? We only need 1 food surplus to avoid starvation, so can we pull off other workers in order to meet our deficit.

Finally, if we were Spotless, we could extort a stipend from the other puny civs to reduce our deficit.

What about more moderate positions, what setting would we need to break even?

If we are going for a high tax regime with xinning, we should reinvest the taxes into city improvements, so that we can increase the productivity of our citizens.
__________________
Scouse Git (2) LaFayette and Adam Smith you will be missed
"All my own perception of beauty both in majesty and simplicity is founded upon Our Lady." - JRR Tolkein
Get busy living or get busy dying.
Ben Kenobi is offline  
Old July 29, 2003, 17:50   #3
shade
Civilization II Democracy Game
King
 
shade's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:30
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: of bribery.
Posts: 2,196
if we have no taxmen ever we will be broke in no-time, because our natural income/cost is something like 21/29
(IIRC)
If we keep 1 Xincity on taxes we can ake enough profit to keep our heads above water, so there would be 3(and soon again 4) cities that are able to Xin for science.

Shade
__________________
ex-president of Apolytonia former King of the Apolytonian Imperium
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." --Thomas Alva Edison (1847-1931)
shameless plug to my site:home of Civ:Imperia(WIP)
shade is offline  
Old July 30, 2003, 02:37   #4
rjmatsleepers
Civilization II Democracy Game
King
 
rjmatsleepers's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:30
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,773
I suggest maximising the science rate; Xin the size 5 cities, but employ some taxmen in Xining cities with the appropriate infrastructure (eg a market) to eliminate the deficit.

RJM at Sleepers
__________________
Fill me with the old familiar juice
rjmatsleepers is offline  
Old July 30, 2003, 11:28   #5
Six Thousand Year Old Man
Civilization II Succession Games
King
 
Six Thousand Year Old Man's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:30
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Ad Rock
Posts: 2,665
The one thing I have learned about CivII in general is to avoid half measures. If you're going to build Crusaders and go to war, don't build them in 1/3 of your cities, build them in all cities (for example).

With this in mind, if we want to maintain the healthy rate of cash surplus we have now, we won't appreciably dent the science rate. Moreover, the surplus rate we have now will probably not be enough to buy any AI cities. So I propose going to extremes one way or the other. Eliminate the surplus and go all out for science, or put science on the back burner and pile up some cash. Trying for the middle ground will prevent us from taking any major steps forward, IMO.

Once either approach is chosen, it's up to the other ministers to decide what to do with the largesse. i.e. with a faster science rate, the Science Minister needs to map out a tech path (better government? better units?), and with a higher tax rate, the Minister of War may want to use some money for bribing. Or for that matter, we could rush some improvements.


@obiwan - I'm not sure what the Xin/nonXin numbers are. In the save I have, there are cities with a food surplus which are not Xinning when they could be. It's consequently hard to determine which cities will and will not Xin on a turn by turn basis.

As for the non-Xin turns; yes, we only need 1 food surplus, and it's pointless to have more workers than that on the land, since the additional surplus would vanish anyway on the Xin-turn. Thus, the superfluous workers should become either taxmen or scientists.
__________________
"I'm a guy - I take everything seriously except other people's emotions"

"Never play cards with any man named 'Doc'. Never eat at any place called 'Mom's'. And never, ever...sleep with anyone whose troubles are worse than your own." - Nelson Algren
"A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic." - Joseph Stalin (attr.)
Six Thousand Year Old Man is offline  
Old July 30, 2003, 12:33   #6
shade
Civilization II Democracy Game
King
 
shade's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:30
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: of bribery.
Posts: 2,196
Quote:
With this in mind, if we want to maintain the healthy rate of cash surplus we have now,
euhm actually our cashrate is negative, the only reason we see a possitive is because we have 1 city Xinning Cash(gave me during play enough surplus to be able to rush in some places once in a while...without that 1 city our treasury wil dry up )

maybe we should first check the sellingprice?

Shade
__________________
ex-president of Apolytonia former King of the Apolytonian Imperium
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." --Thomas Alva Edison (1847-1931)
shameless plug to my site:home of Civ:Imperia(WIP)
shade is offline  
Old July 30, 2003, 13:29   #7
Six Thousand Year Old Man
Civilization II Succession Games
King
 
Six Thousand Year Old Man's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:30
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Ad Rock
Posts: 2,665
Quote:
Originally posted by shade


euhm actually our cashrate is negative, the only reason we see a possitive is because we have 1 city Xinning Cash(gave me during play enough surplus to be able to rush in some places once in a while...without that 1 city our treasury wil dry up )

maybe we should first check the sellingprice?

Shade
I was considering that city in the calculations based on the savegame - and IIRC I had suggested we use that city as a cash Xin, to fund our military construction in that area.

In any event the point still stands.. as we are now, we aren't making a lot of headway in science, and we aren't piling up enough cash to buy AI cities in large numbers.
__________________
"I'm a guy - I take everything seriously except other people's emotions"

"Never play cards with any man named 'Doc'. Never eat at any place called 'Mom's'. And never, ever...sleep with anyone whose troubles are worse than your own." - Nelson Algren
"A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic." - Joseph Stalin (attr.)
Six Thousand Year Old Man is offline  
Old July 30, 2003, 14:36   #8
Ben Kenobi
Civilization II Democracy GameCivilization II Succession GamesCivilization II Multiplayer
Emperor
 
Ben Kenobi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:30
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 18,269
Quote:
Trying for the middle ground will prevent us from taking any major steps forward, IMO.
Agreed, but information helps us to figure out how much we can get away with and still survive. The all out tax regime has advantages over the science regime in that taxes allow us to buy production either as city improverment or as crusaders.

If we could build the SoL, it would be much easier to vote for a high science regime in that we would only need to research Democracy to start a fundamentalist government. As it is, I think we still need to keep science high, just so we can build engineers given the size of the map.

Crusaders are awesome, but how useful are they if we can't send them to the front?
__________________
Scouse Git (2) LaFayette and Adam Smith you will be missed
"All my own perception of beauty both in majesty and simplicity is founded upon Our Lady." - JRR Tolkein
Get busy living or get busy dying.
Ben Kenobi is offline  
Old July 30, 2003, 14:59   #9
-Jrabbit
Civilization II Democracy GameCivilization II MultiplayerMacCivilization IV: MultiplayerCivilization II Succession Games
Deity
 
-Jrabbit's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:30
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: location, location
Posts: 13,220
I heartily agree with STYOM's point -- half-measures will produce wimpy results.

I say, now that the huts have run dry, Xinning for science for as long as we can sustain it (then moving on) is the way to go.
__________________
Apolyton's Grim Reaper 2008
RIP lest we forget... SG (2) and LaFayette -- Civ2 Succession Games Brothers-in-Arms

"The Borg are gay." -Drake Tungsten
-Jrabbit is offline  
Old July 30, 2003, 21:16   #10
CannonFodder
Civilization II Democracy GameCivilization II MultiplayerCivilization II Democracy Game: Red FrontMac
Prince
 
CannonFodder's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:30
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Alabama, home of the Chronically Ignorant
Posts: 381
Quote:
Originally posted by obiwan18
If we could build the SoL, it would be much easier to vote for a high science regime in that we would only need to research Democracy to start a fundamentalist government. As it is, I think we still need to keep science high, just so we can build engineers given the size of the map.

Crusaders are awesome, but how useful are they if we can't send them to the front?
Absolutely. We should continue our efforts to get Explosives and Railroad, and then we should concentrate on forging an Empire out of our relatively dislocated cities. If we can switch to a tax regime once we have achieved this basic science goal, we should be able to build up the infrastructure to continue our campaign against the AIs. Until then, it is going to have to be a slow but steady process.

Personally, I think we should concentrate on an 'offensive defense' by patrolling our borders with crusaders until we can funnel enough troops through in rapid succession using better transportation to more comprehensively deal with the 'Mericans and the Greeks.
__________________
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." -Thomas Jefferson
Former Minister of City Planning of the third Civ2 Democracy Game
Former Minister of Science of the third Civ2 Democracy Game
Former Imperial Expansion Minister of the first Civ2 Democracy Game
CannonFodder is offline  
Old August 1, 2003, 09:03   #11
Hydey
Civilization II Democracy GameCivilization II Multiplayer
Emperor
 
Hydey's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:30
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: up shyte creek without a paddle
Posts: 6,250
We need $$$$$ for bribing cheap cities
__________________
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits

Hydey the no-limits man. :(
Hydey is offline  
Old August 1, 2003, 09:50   #12
Six Thousand Year Old Man
Civilization II Succession Games
King
 
Six Thousand Year Old Man's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:30
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Ad Rock
Posts: 2,665
Why are my polls always so evenly divided between/among rival city strategies?

Do you all really want me to have to decide on my own?
__________________
"I'm a guy - I take everything seriously except other people's emotions"

"Never play cards with any man named 'Doc'. Never eat at any place called 'Mom's'. And never, ever...sleep with anyone whose troubles are worse than your own." - Nelson Algren
"A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic." - Joseph Stalin (attr.)
Six Thousand Year Old Man is offline  
Old August 1, 2003, 10:04   #13
Hydey
Civilization II Democracy GameCivilization II Multiplayer
Emperor
 
Hydey's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:30
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: up shyte creek without a paddle
Posts: 6,250
Its better that way as you get to suggest whatever you want
__________________
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits

Hydey the no-limits man. :(
Hydey is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:30.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team