Protecting victims of false rape allegations

[Ben Kenobi]

If it was left up to coservatives, we would still be refering to the survivors of rape as ruined women.

Che:



If everyone were properly conservative, there would be no need for rape laws in the first place.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by yavoon

the majority of the feminist movement is concerned w/ empowerment. not relief of suffering. they're both good goals, but they are distinctly different.

Are you really that dumb? Or do you just hate women?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by obiwan18
Che:



If everyone were properly conservative, there would be no need for rape laws in the first place.

Which is why extremely conservative governments use rape as a punishment?

[yavoon]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Are you really that dumb? Or do you just hate women?

the feminist movement is not concerned w/ empowerment? if u wna just randomnly flame me that'll work great cuz then I can just stop responding.

[Ben Kenobi]

That might be true of the tiny minority of right-wing feminists who follow Adrea Dworkin and Katherine McKinnon, but they hardly have any representation in mainstream feminism, let alone the huge numbers of left-wing feminists. Those two are so conservative their ideas about sex are practically Victorian.

So the 'tiny minority' must always be wrong?

Do you even have a ****ing clue as to the verbal fecal matter that you are spewing?

Che, why don't you calm down before you embarrass yourself further?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by yavoon
they've been told they have a right to be scarred, hell they've been told they SHOULD be scarred for life.

Yes, they've been told this for thousands of years, except in those countries in which feminism has started telling women that they are survivors of rape, not victims.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Yes, they've been told this for thousands of years, except in those countries in which feminism has started telling women that they are survivors of rape, not victims.

I thought rape wasn't a crime against women in the old days. how can u have a victim w/o a crime?

[Kropotkin]

Originally posted by obiwan18
If everyone were properly conservative, there would be no need for rape laws in the first place.

A statement that means nothing. So if all were properly liberals, rapes would be commonplace? I don't think so as to rape someone isn't a very liberal thing to do.

You're mixing normative statements about the a conservative ideal and put it against the real world as an example of the opposite.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by yavoon
the feminist movement is not concerned w/ empowerment? if u wna just randomnly flame me that'll work great cuz then I can just stop responding.

I can't believe I have I have to lead you by the hand on this.

What does empowerment do? What does rape do?

Rape takes away your confidence in yourself, like all violent crimes. When you are attacked, you feel shame, that you did something to causes this, especially if you know the attacker. Depression is a very common side effect of being raped. Until very recently, people used to ask what she did to cause it, said it was her fault or she deserved it. In trials today, survivors are dragged through the mud and made out to look like sluts and are just being vindictive.

Empowerment gives you confidence in yourself. What is the purpose of empowerment, to take control of your life. Why do you need to be empowered, because you don't have power, or at least not an equal share.

It was the women's movement that has forced police to treat rape as a serious crime for all women, and not just middle-class white virgins of impeccable character. It was the women's movement who set up rape couseling, so women would understand it was not their fault and that they could survive rape. It was the women's movement who first referred to rape survivors as survivors rather than victims, and for the most part, they are still the only ones.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by yavoon
I thought rape wasn't a crime against women in the old days. how can u have a victim w/o a crime?

And you're trying to prove what by this statement? Murder has always been considered a crime, unless you murdered people who were unworthy of attention. So because Black people didn't get justice it didn't mean that they weren't murdered?

The fact that women were treated abominably doesn't mean that rape was legal. If you were a white man raping a Black women, people might cluck their tongues, but not because of the rape, but because it was interracial sex. Forget her trying to get justice. On the other hand, if a white woman claimed a Black man raped her, he'd be lucky to live through the night.

There were (and sadly still are) worthy victims and unworthy victims. Worthy victims were pitied, put on a pedistal, and told how sad it was their lives were ruined. Unworthy victims were told that it was their own fault, that they were sluts, that they brought dishonor on the family.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by obiwan18
So the 'tiny minority' must always be wrong?

Did I say they were wrong because they were a minority? No, I said because they are a tiny minority they aren't representitive of the movement.

Che, why don't you calm down before you embarrass yourself further?

As I said before, this crap makes my blood boil, especially when stated by someone who refers to himself as a socialist.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


I can't believe I have I have to lead you by the hand on this.

What does empowerment do? What does rape do?

Rape takes away your confidence in yourself, like all violent crimes. When you are attacked, you feel shame, that you did something to causes this, especially if you know the attacker. Depression is a very common side effect of being raped. Until very recently, people used to ask what she did to cause it, said it was her fault or she deserved it. In trials today, survivors are dragged through the mud and made out to look like sluts and are just being vindictive.

Empowerment gives you confidence in yourself. What is the purpose of empowerment, to take control of your life. Why do you need to be empowered, because you don't have power, or at least not an equal share.

It was the women's movement that has forced police to treat rape as a serious crime for all women, and not just middle-class white virgins of impeccable character. It was the women's movement who set up rape couseling, so women would understand it was not their fault and that they could survive rape. It was the women's movement who first referred to rape survivors as survivors rather than victims, and for the most part, they are still the only ones.

I don't understand how this contradicts me. I did say that the feminist movement is by in large concerned w/ empowerment. I think u r becoming overzealous in this argument and thinking that I am simply anti feminist.

for me to say "the feminist movement is concerned w/ empowerment." and for the response to that statement to be this flame. its like the flame was pre-written just waiting to be hurled on someone who disagreed w/ u.

[chequita guevara]

No, this is what you said.

Originally posted by yavoon well its not an either or thing. and thats partly the problem. the feminists feel the need to run politicaly rampant over the suffering of the women in order to grind laws past huge chauvinists.

. . .

the main contribution of feminism to rape is to magnify the victimization. The ends are two goals, get more women to come forward and to get stricter laws past. but to this end they build up the crime as much as humanly possible. which has the side effect of women actually are scarred for life. they've been told they have a right to be scarred, hell they've been told they SHOULD be scarred for life.

. . .

the majority of the feminist movement is concerned w/ empowerment. not relief of suffering. they're both good goals, but they are distinctly different.

You have consistently misrepresented feminism and written things which aren't merely wrong, but are, in fact, the opposite of history. At best they are completely ignorant. At worst they are lies.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
No, this is what you said.



You have consistently misrepresented feminism and written things which aren't merely wrong, but are, in fact, the opposite of history. At best they are completely ignorant. At worst they are lies.

arguing the conclusion isn't very interesting. what I said was true. feminists have championed a sense of extraordinary victimization in rape victims. I also think u r attributing anyone who cares about women to the "feminist movement." or any center that offers free counseling. This is much too broad a scope to take. I support free counseling and I am not feminist. infact as is in line w/ my first post that is what I MOST SUPPORT.

[reds4ever]

So, should innocent (ie until proven guily) men be named as rapists?

Should lairs who falsely accuse men of rape be entitled to anonimity (BAD sp!) or be prosecuted afer?

[mrmitchell]

If it can be determined beyond a doubt the false accuser did it out of spite, vengence, or intent on wrongdoing, then, yes, they should have the **** beat out of them. Our society doesn't need to waste its time on *****es like that.

(Remember, however, "beyond a doubt". )

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by yavoon
arguing the conclusion isn't very interesting. what I said was true. feminists have championed a sense of extraordinary victimization in rape victims.

And as I pointed out, you are completely and totally wrong in this statement. This is a conservative lie. It flies in the face of both historical reality and the reality of the rest of the world where feminism has no influence at all. All one has to do is open one's eyes.

What happens to rape victims in Palestine? What happens to rape victims in India? What happens to rape victims in Mexico? What happens to rape victims in Great Britain? What happens to rape victims in the US? In which countries do feminists have any influence at all? Which countries call women who are raped survivors? Which countries call them sluts? Which countries say they've brought dishonor on their families?

I also think u r attributing anyone who cares about women to the "feminist movement." or any center that offers free counseling. This is much too broad a scope to take.

As in skywalkers case, you are arguing a point withtout historical perspective. To say that if left to conservatives, things would still be the same as thirty years ago is absolutly true, and says little about what conseravtives think today.

The fact that today, most people agree that rape counceling centers should exist in no way invalidates the fact that it was feminists who started and pushed for these services and who also largely staff them.

I support free counseling

How nice of you.

and I am not feminist.

You don't believe women are equal to men?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by mrmitchell
(Remember, however, "beyond a doubt". )

No, beyond a reasonable doubt.

[mrmitchell]

Damnit, Che, why are you always correcting me on technicalities!??

[yavoon]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


And as I pointed out, you are completely and totally wrong in this statement. This is a conservative lie. It flies in the face of both historical reality and the reality of the rest of the world where feminism has no influence at all. All one has to do is open one's eyes.

What happens to rape victims in Palestine? What happens to rape victims in India? What happens to rape victims in Mexico? What happens to rape victims in Great Britain? What happens to rape victims in the US? In which countries do feminists have any influence at all? Which countries call women who are raped survivors? Which countries call them sluts? Which countries say they've brought dishonor on their families?

Quote:

I also think u r attributing anyone who cares about women to the "feminist movement." or any center that offers free counseling. This is much too broad a scope to take.

As in skywalkers case, you are arguing a point withtout historical perspective. To say that if left to conservatives, things would still be the same as thirty years ago is absolutly true, and says little about what conseravtives think today.

The fact that today, most people agree that rape counceling centers should exist in no way invalidates the fact that it was feminists who started and pushed for these services and who also largely staff them.

Quote:

I support free counseling

How nice of you.

Quote:

and I am not feminist.

You don't believe women are equal to men?

proggressive social issues does not lead one to feminism. equality of the sexes doesn't either. u obviously want to encapture anyone who isnt a fundy religious person as a feminist. aint going to happen.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara I'm old enough to remember when this was the norm, when women who were raped probably deserved it, when wifes couldn't be raped by their husbands because they owed it to their husbands. At each point along the way, it was conservatives who were screaming bloody murder against changing our perceptions of the victims and survivors of rape. Don't act like because we finally got it through your thick skuls that no woman deserves to be raped, that your side thought this all along. You're Johnny-come-latelys.

Had it been left to conservatives nothing would have changed. That's why you're called conservatives.

When did I claim that there weren't conservatives that opposed rape law reform or whatever? However, you are AGAIN just making a random generalization that all conservatives would have opposed it - which is immensely rude, insulting, and STUPID. "You're Johnny-come-latelys." Yeah, I used to believe that those laws were bad until I reformed. Except for the little tiny detail about not having been born yet. I bet this could apply to many people on these boards. Moreover, I'd bet the VAST MAJORITY of the conservatives on these boards were and are in favor of rape being a crime.

"Had it been left to conservatives nothing would have changed." No, had it been left to EXTREME FANATICAL RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVES, nothing would have changed. There are also extreme fanatical left-wing liberal feminists. However, no one in their right mind would leave things up to either group.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Quote:

and I am not feminist.

You don't believe women are equal to men?

Wow, now you're saying that if I'm not a feminist, I'm support gender segregation? Wow, I guess I'm a Nazi too because, you know, the Nazi's were conservative and I also happen to be conservative (oh, just ignore the fact that my dad's Jewish). Or maybe I'm a capitalist pig because my dad's a lawyer and is upper-middle-class (ignoring that my great-grandfather was an impoverished immigrant). Or perhaps I'm a rapist, because I'm a guy and rapists are ALWAYS guys, as we all know.

Stop spewing crap.

[monkspider]

I have to agree Che, not to boil your blood or anything, but supporting equality for women /= being a feminist. Why not just support equality for all with socialism? Feminism is superfluous and potentially bad.

[Kuciwalker]

Yeah, sorry for the rant, but I get really pissed when people start randomly attributing beliefs/behaviors/ideals to me, ESPECIALLY when it's false.

[Proteus_MST]

I think there can only be an answer to it (for Males),
don´t have Sex and always have some witnessea with you, if you talk to a woman.

Unless of course, you really really trust the Woman.
Especially in Countrys where it is easy to accuse someone of Sexual Harassment or Rape.

I´m exaggerating a bit,
but somehow it seems to be the only way to make sure,
that incidents like those mentioned don´t happen.

I don´t think the Laws should be altered, though.
But as someone other already mentioned, the Public has the unpleasnat Habit of seeing someone accused of Rape as guilty, even if the case hasn´t been decided yet.
And even if you have been proven Innocnet, a lot of People will still think you are guilty, especially if the Newspapers make large headline of the Case while it still seems you are guilty and then, when you are proven to be innocent, just mention it with a small article on the last page.

[Kuciwalker]

Are you the haiku guy, or another haiku guy?

EDIT: lol, just read my post

[Sprayber]

It's always gonna be hard to walk that line. Like some have said, there is a difference between a false accusation and the prosecutor not being able to prove a case because of evidence.

I think the current laws on perjury and making false claims to police are suffcient. Perhaps the penalities for such offenses should be reviewed and possibly raised.

As for the media. I don't think its going to happen. Think of it this way. What would the general public think if the police arrested a suspect in a series of brutal rapes, does anyone really believe that the public will not want to know who that was and the circumstances immediately. They are not going to wait for six months to a year for the court system to grind its way to a resolution. It's just not going to happen that way. There is far too much interest in those types of cases.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Sprayber
It's always gonna be hard to walk that line. Like some have said, there is a difference between a false accusation and the prosecutor not being able to prove a case because of evidence.

I think the current laws on perjury and making false claims to police are suffcient. Perhaps the penalities for such offenses should be reviewed and possibly raised.

As for the media. I don't think its going to happen. Think of it this way. What would the general public think if the police arrested a suspect in a series of brutal rapes, does anyone really believe that the public will not want to know who that was and the circumstances immediately. They are not going to wait for six months to a year for the court system to grind its way to a resolution. It's just not going to happen that way. There is far too much interest in those types of cases.

There maybe also a difference between a false Accusation and a real Accusation.
if there really is a rape there might be much less danger,
that (if you are accused to be the rapist, but found innocent) the Public still believes that you are guilty if the real Rapist is found (although people initially believe you are guilty).

But if there are just false Accusations it is difficult. The people might think that you maybe just have been set free because of a lack of evidence, or something else (the things you mentioned in your posting).

There were some Cases in Germany where people have been falsely accused of Child abuse.
For example in one case there was a father who was accused of asbusing his own daughter (because a female Psychologist was convinced that certain Pictures which the daughter drew indicate that the father must have abused her).
The Father was, in the End, found absolutely innocent and there were no indications, that the things the Psychologist believed were true.
Despite all of this the father lost his job and not regained it, as it was proven that he was innocent and the family had to leave their hometown (a small town with maybe a few thousand Inhabitants), because the Neighbours still believed, despite the court absolutely clearly saying, tat he was innocent, that the father is guilty.

There were other, likely cases were such Accusations destroyed the Life of people.
It is always sad to see such things.

And yes, there should be grave Penalties, if you falsely accuse someone of a crim, especially if it can be proven, that you have intentionally done so (and not, for example have mistaken Person A for Person B or the like).

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Sprayber
It's always gonna be hard to walk that line. Like some have said, there is a difference between a false accusation and the prosecutor not being able to prove a case because of evidence.

I think the current laws on perjury and making false claims to police are suffcient. Perhaps the penalities for such offenses should be reviewed and possibly raised.

As for the media. I don't think its going to happen. Think of it this way. What would the general public think if the police arrested a suspect in a series of brutal rapes, does anyone really believe that the public will not want to know who that was and the circumstances immediately. They are not going to wait for six months to a year for the court system to grind its way to a resolution. It's just not going to happen that way. There is far too much interest in those types of cases.

there is also the ideal that many ppl share that the court system should be an open process. open to the public for scrutiny.

[Shi Huangdi]

Che needs to take a chill pill. It's one thing to disagree with someone, another thing to viciously attack them. Just because you hate someone's ideas doesn't mean you have to hate the person.

Anyway, it seems most people on this thread, left and right, have come to the conclusion the best solution is to harshly punish those who make false accusations of rape. There is a problem with that, is that proving that the act was consensual would be just as difficult if not more that the act wasn't consensual. The good majority of rape cases are dismissed because it is hard to prove. So while if we do ever find out for sure there was a false accusation(there'd probably have to be a confession), then yes the woman should go to jail for probably as long as the man would had he been convicted.

Still, it seems to have been clear that women have a weapon at their disposal that they can cause grevious harm to any many simply by making an accusation, I think we must be sure to take this weapon away from women. Defendants should be given an option of a public trial, but in prejudicial cases where the defendant faces severe damage just by the accusation I think he should be given an option to remain anonymus. In the USA this would be difficult, but hopefully Britain can fairly easily change the law to make this so. Also, I think people accused of rape should not be subject to automatic arrest as it seems they currently area. DNA testing should only be done if the question is whether they had sex, not if it was consensual.

Above all, criminal cases of rape should never go forward IMO if it is a mere matter of "He Said, She Said". Their must be more evidence before proceeding, and until convicted the courts need to truly make an effort to treat the accused an innocent.