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Old August 5, 2003, 16:27   #301
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Didn't bother to read thru the flame fest beyond page two, but one of Zylka's initial posts mentioned electrical activity (ie brainwaves) at 40 days in a human fetus.

Just uhhh....thought I'd throw this out there but, in the 70's, researchers charted coordinated electrical activity between two containers of yogurt sitting near each other in a refrigeration unit.

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Old August 5, 2003, 16:29   #302
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No, actually, Zylka... I met to read my LOCATION. I'm two years younger than you... slightly less by 24 days actually
Why would I care to do that, when calling you a 14 year old is derived simply from your own mentality to project self hatred onto the future's of the unborn in "estimation"?
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Old August 5, 2003, 16:31   #303
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How does it suck a lot more?? If you never even KNEW you existed, how can it suck for you? It's much worse to have lived as an orphan than to never have lived at all.
Dom Pedro

I argue just the opposite. How can nothing ever be greater than something? Yes life can be awful, but what about the good parts?

Secondly, can I say that your life is meaningless? So why then should the mother get to make the decision for her child?

Finally, why should we punish the child for being an orphan in killing her before she is born? Would it not be better to improve the lives of orphans rather than killing them?
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Old August 5, 2003, 16:32   #304
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Originally posted by Velociryx

Just uhhh....thought I'd throw this out there but, in the 70's, researchers charted coordinated electrical activity between two containers of yogurt sitting near each other in a refrigeration unit.

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Was it even one thousandth the activity of a HUMAN fetus' brain? How about an ant's? Didn't think so!
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Old August 5, 2003, 16:37   #305
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It's not a question of self hatred...

It's a question of a certain nagging tiredness for humanity with each passing day... turning on the TV and seeing at worst murders, wars, butchering of other human lives, and at best, lies being spewed by the cockroaches of society who will survive long after the good have been buried.

To know that if we do the numbers and see how many of the people in this world have died in misery.. that the numbers are too great to bear.

I spent several days in whats called a favela... a ghetto basically. Have you ever had a starving child come and beg you for money? Have you ever seen an old woman her body to bent and misshapen from years of labor and lack of proper medical care... armless and legless amputees coming up to you, crying to you for help, and even if you could feed them today, tomorrow they'll be starving again... Have you ever seen this face to face?

Yes, there are days when I feel that we are a blight on this planet... that whatever good we may contribute is entirely out-weighed by our evils. And sometimes I feel that if we were just blinked out of existence... if no one had to shed a tear for a lost loved one because we all went together, that yes, I would think that its the best way. Because I don't see any signs that we're going to change. I don't see any signs that we're going to get better... **** will always rise to the top. So forgive me for wanting to extend a little compassion to those who have not yet been born into this nightmare... and for wanting to give a chance for this raped and battered planet to return to her former beauty.

But those are just some days...
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Old August 5, 2003, 16:42   #306
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Originally posted by Dom Pedro II


How does it suck a lot more?? If you never even KNEW you existed, how can it suck for you? It's much worse to have lived as an orphan than to never have lived at all.
so u r going to decide that for the child? in ur own myopic cynical world view. u r going to stand on a pedistol and say "I know it is better to have never lived at all then to have been adopted, therefore its ok to kill children."
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Old August 5, 2003, 16:44   #307
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Originally posted by Zylka
...and George Carlin? OH MAN HAHAHA HE IZ REAL FUNNY - Only if you're a f*cking unaccomplished loser who needs reasons to hate and blame the successful and realistic conservative world around you. Unreal, you've gained Urban Ranger like respect in a few short posts. That's ok - because all I'm harbouring is resentment towards women. "Taliban" is such a nice cliche to throw around for the pathetically inadequate
It has ceretainly gotten quite shrill in here! Maybe you have mommy issues? Perhaps that is why you hate women?

And nothing to say on my kidney hypothetical? As I thought, you stick to the rhetoric while leaving my substantive points untouched. In other words, you have nothing to say - argument over, point Templar!

"The successful and conservative world around me"? Where is THAT world precisely? The most conservative societies on the planet are also the least successful. But again, feel free to shoot off your mouth without really saying anything.

Imram

Guilt or innocence? Not ignoring that at all. The soundest pro-life position I can think of is that the right to life cannot be abrogated. That position dispenses with all sorts of balancing tests. But it also precludes the consideration of death penalty period.

But suppose you want to make the argument that a fetus has not given up its right to life - but that a convict has through his death-worthy offense. Fine, you are saying in the balance the convicts right to life is less important than retribution/maintaining order/whatever, but that the fetus's right to life outweighs female reproductive freedom. This is you will note, a much weaker pro-life position than the "sanctity of life" variety. Granted, the weaker position is logically consistent. However, it means you need a balancing test that can consistently place greater value on your penological theory than life, but weigh life of another more than control of one's own body. (A really good balancing test of this type will also consistently arive at the proposition that juveniles should not be executed.) Good luck finding such a balancing test.
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Old August 5, 2003, 16:46   #308
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Nooooo, but you are anthropomorphizing something that does not even KNOW it exists... if the child is unaware of its existence, it cannot know that this alternative sucks by comparison to anything.... if it does not know that it exists, it is the same as though it does not exist (as far as the child is concerned). From YOUR perspective, it does exist, but that it because you are sentient being.

If we're talking about it in terms of whether or not either of us thinks its better to go through life with all of its ups and downs can be debatable... in some ways, I say yes. In others, I say no. But from the perspective of the child, since it does not know that it exists it has no vested interest in its survival. It is a piece of meat.
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Old August 5, 2003, 16:47   #309
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This sounds good, if a fetus is human. But even if a fetus is human, yes, the right to control one's own body is greater.

Assume that without a kidney transplant I will die. Turns out we have a tissue match and you are the only available donor. You can live perfectly well with only one kidney. Should it be permissable for your kidney to be taken against your will in order to save my life? I'm going to have to say no to this - you have a right to keep your kidney even if it means my death. Or do you think kidneys should be stolen to save others?

Now your little point about "its only control of you body versus a life" doesn't seem so hot, does it?


Kudos to Templar for the excellent example. However, I will claim false analogy between a child in the womb and a kidney.

First of all, one of the consequences of sex is pregnancy. If a man gets a woman pregnant, he becomes responsible for that child if it can be proven that he is the father. Why should the situation be different for the mother?

In this, the woman, by having sex, has already consented to the pregnancy. So your example cannot work.

What about rape? This is where Templar's analogy has a greater coherence in that the woman has not consented to sex. Again, I cite false analogy because a kidney operation does not come without risks to the one donating the kidney. One does not have a responsibility to save someone else's life at substantial risk to one's own life. Even in a rape, the pregnancy does not have substantial risk to the mother.

There are cases where this analogy applies, such as where the mother's life is at risk from the pregnancy. In these cases, abortion would be justified for exactly the same reason as one cannot be required to donate a kidney.
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Old August 5, 2003, 16:48   #310
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Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
Nooooo, but you are anthropomorphizing something that does not even KNOW it exists... if the child is unaware of its existence, it cannot know that this alternative sucks by comparison to anything.... if it does not know that it exists, it is the same as though it does not exist (as far as the child is concerned). From YOUR perspective, it does exist, but that it because you are sentient being.

If we're talking about it in terms of whether or not either of us thinks its better to go through life with all of its ups and downs can be debatable... in some ways, I say yes. In others, I say no. But from the perspective of the child, since it does not know that it exists it has no vested interest in its survival. It is a piece of meat.
its all a wash anyway. if I could kill u instantaneously(or perhaps just very quickly will do). u will never know that u have died. since once ur dead, u will not exist. so considering that u will not have knowledge of ANY of the negative consequences of ur death, I don't find it at all immoral to kill u.
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Old August 5, 2003, 16:48   #311
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This is you will note, a much weaker pro-life position than the "sanctity of life" variety. Granted, the weaker position is logically consistent.
You admit it IS consistent. Weaker, perhaps, but definetly not incompatable, like you said earlier.

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it means you need a balancing test that can consistently place greater value on your penological theory than life, but weigh life of another more than control of one's own body.
We engage in balancing tests all the time. Why should this be any more different? Where the balance is, is up to us to decide.
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Old August 5, 2003, 16:49   #312
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its all a wash anyway. if I could kill u instantaneously(or perhaps just very quickly will do). u will never know that u have died. since once ur dead, u will not exist. so considering that u will not have knowledge of ANY of the negative consequences of ur death, I don't find it at all immoral to kill u.

then what are we debating?
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Old August 5, 2003, 16:51   #313
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Originally posted by Dom Pedro II



then what are we debating?
what I meant was a wash was ur point. if the validity of "cuz u dont know its bad to be dead." is valid. then there's no reason to think that simply killing ppl quickly isnt a moral act.
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Old August 5, 2003, 16:54   #314
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Ah ha... but you've missed the key to the point... WE have sentience. There is a difference to us between life and non-life.

To something that does not have sentience, there is no such distinction.

If then were are to say that it has been robbed of the potential to have sentience, well, then we can say every child that was never even conceived was denied such a privilege as well.

If we follow that logic, then we must do away with birth control, and boy, won't that be fun on the population? And masturbation! Back to the old Catholic church we go so that we ensure every possible being that can exist does...
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Old August 5, 2003, 16:58   #315
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Zylka: A question for you.

What is it that makes a human....human?

Answer that question clearly, concisely, and there's something to debate. Without the answer to that question, you're just p*ssing vinegar.

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Old August 5, 2003, 16:58   #316
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Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
Ah ha... but you've missed the key to the point... WE have sentience. There is a difference to us between life and non-life.

To something that does not have sentience, there is no such distinction.

If then were are to say that it has been robbed of the potential to have sentience, well, then we can say every child that was never even conceived was denied such a privilege as well.

If we follow that logic, then we must do away with birth control, and boy, won't that be fun on the population? And masturbation! Back to the old Catholic church we go so that we ensure every possible being that can exist does...
ur point is irrelevant. since the crux of ur argument works w/ or w/o sentience. a person doesn't know its dead nemore than a fetus doesn't know its dead. so while WE HAD sentience its all but irrelevant in the argument.
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Old August 5, 2003, 16:58   #317
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Not ignoring that at all. The soundest pro-life position I can think of is that the right to life cannot be abrogated. That position dispenses with all sorts of balancing tests. But it also precludes the consideration of death penalty period.
I just have a few comments on Imran's position.

To conclude that we protect innocent human persons is a perfectly philosophically sound prolife position. I favour a 'no-holds-barred' position, that allows me to make easy decisions on this issue, and tougher ones when we have to deal with those who are not innocent.

Francis Beckwith is a big proponent of the 'innocenct human life position,' specifically designed to seperate the two issues of abortion and capital punishment.
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Old August 5, 2003, 17:01   #318
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Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
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This is you will note, a much weaker pro-life position than the "sanctity of life" variety. Granted, the weaker position is logically consistent.
You admit it IS consistent. Weaker, perhaps, but definetly not incompatable, like you said earlier.
LOGICALLY consistent, i.e. it does not entail a contradiction. So don't get too excited. 'The sky is red, therefore the sky is green' is logically consistent in any form of classical logic.

Morally consistent is a whole other ball of wax. Morally consistent would require a moral theory in which an anti-abortion position and a pro-death penality position can coexist. This can be tricky. (But if you really are a moral relativist, then you have no problems here). Now, I have never seen a moral theory that accomodates these two positions well. But then again, I have not seen every possible moral theory.
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Old August 5, 2003, 17:02   #319
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Originally posted by The Templar


LOGICALLY consistent, i.e. it does not entail a contradiction. So don't get too excited. 'The sky is red, therefore the sky is green' is logically consistent in any form of classical logic.

Morally consistent is a whole other ball of wax. Morally consistent would require a moral theory in which an anti-abortion position and a pro-death penality position can coexist. This can be tricky. (But if you really are a moral relativist, then you have no problems here). Now, I have never seen a moral theory that accomodates these two positions well. But then again, I have not seen every possible moral theory.
maybe u need to look around more.
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Old August 5, 2003, 17:02   #320
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And you are still missing my point....

You cannot rob it of something that it does not have... you can take a person's sentience from them... but you cannot take the sentience from something that does not have it.

The immorality comes from the stealing of that sentience... if its not there, it cannot be stolen. The only thing that can be stolen is the POTENTIAL for sentience...
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Old August 5, 2003, 17:05   #321
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Something that knows it exists can place value on its existence. Something that does not, cannot.
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Old August 5, 2003, 17:07   #322
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Okay, let's tackle this issue more seriously so that we get a more fair and on-topic conversation.

Quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor

The only big argument of theirs is that "abortion is murder".
Undoubtely that seems to be the case quite frequently and thus eliminates the possibilites from any sociological viewpoints on this whole issue, as it's brought down only to one moral issue; murder or not (manslaughter can be ruled out as abortions don't happen "accidentally".

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They are also extremely dismissive as to what will happen to the unwanted child after birth, as well as to its other innocent family members.
Which makes their case very narrow as they only look at the issue and concequences from the fetus' point of views, thus excluding many other persons who maybe in a more vulnerable position and also the society in general terms.

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You'll also notice his only argument on the matter was "unwanted children will continued to be loved".
Which very much excludes the facts about how "unwanted" children have to live in misery in many countries, as they don't have a family, no one wants to raise them and the society can't afford to have good foster homes for them (just look at many Latin American or other low BNP countries which are mainly Catholic). In Asia we have the Philippines with a large problem with such homeless children which are abandoned as they can't be kept (okay, now you can argue with preventing pregnancies, but you have to remember that abortions would also help there).

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You'll also notice nearly no anti-choicer seems to think about the unwanted kid's future and suffering. Some way to "think of the children"
There's indeed many cases which prove that the life of unwanted children can be like hell. I.e. just start counting if all orphans which were born due to unwanted pregnancies ever get a home, while they're in an orphanage in e.g. China, Thailand, the Philipines. Or if the life of a child of a drug addicted mother is sweet as syrup. I doubt that because the child's life will be quite bad right from the beginning, especially in a case if the baby is already e.g. a heroin addict due to the mother.

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In other threads, someone gives a great deal of importance to the suffering of women. Or rather one kind of women's suffering: the post abortion psychologic trauma (Obiwan).
Which can be anyway turned around into vice versa and asked: Could raising an unwanted baby cause similar or even worse traumas? Maybe Dr. Strangelove would like to comment, but I would say that the depression can be even worse (many mothers of "wanted" children already feel depressed after the labour, so I doubt the situation is better for the mother of an "unwanted" baby).

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We are stupid enough to enter their little games. They successfully shift the focus from what abortion is really about (preventing whole lifes of being ruined) to their pet issue, that is whether destroying foetuses is murder or not.
I agree on that and do see it as kind of cheap, as then we are not debating at the same level, leaving them using arguements which arouse emotional reactions when speaking with such buzzwords as "murder of unborn babies", etc.

I find myself to be in favour for giving women the right to decide if they want or do not want an abortion, giving the state or other parties no right to affect that decision. As for any restrictions, I would suggest that a consenting adult would have full rights to do the decision, while leaving requiring parental consent from persons under consentiual age. That would mean the anti-abortion campaigners could pretty much stick their heads in their buttholes, while giving the woman herself the right to decide about her own body and the destiny of the fetus. Thus excluding the interference of outside parties.

That wasn't the point with this thread, but just making clear what my personal vision is. Which is actually reality here in Finland (if I recall right the abortion rights of minors).
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Old August 5, 2003, 17:07   #323
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Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
Something that knows it exists can place value on its existence. Something that does not, cannot.
yes, but can it place value on its death? u can say "omg I hope I don't die." but will u EVER realize anything negative from ur death? U won't. cuz as the point still stands, and as u have not refuted. an adult doesn't know its dead ANYMORE than a fetus doesn't know its dead.
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Old August 5, 2003, 17:16   #324
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Originally posted by obiwan18

Down the gutter? How would adoption cause any of these things?
So you assume a woman is capable of full-time studying and/or working during the ~9 month pregnancy? Even if she would be, it could be even dangerous or fatal to the fetus (e.g. miscarriage) and the mother (e.g. depression, fever), so is that also something what you anti-abortionists find fully acceptable and such be put aside, while struggling to be so, ack, morally correct?

Gimme a break.
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Old August 5, 2003, 17:20   #325
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Answer that question clearly, concisely, and there's something to debate. Without the answer to that question, you're just p*ssing vinegar.
And here I wanted to ask that same question of you, Velociryx.

I'll wait for Zylka, but somebody has to go first.
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Old August 5, 2003, 17:22   #326
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But ultimately we all die regardless of whether its deliberate or not, so let's not go into the realm of death but rather stay in the realm of the living. You place a value on your life... you don't want to die regardless of the fact that one day YOU WILL. It is the only guarantee in life. If you kill someone, you took away the most valuable thing to them... their life (or maybe second most valuable if they have kids). Regardless, thats the immoral act.

But if you kill some living tissue that does not know its alive and therefore can place no value on how much its life is worth to them.

But that isn't even the point of all this! The point of all this is that I was saying that the life of a child who is aware of its existence and lives in misery is worse than the experience of a child that does not know it exists and will never know it exists. And I feel that I've argued that point fairly well...

If you want to debate with me on the issue of whether or not taking that life is immoral or not is another ball game... I'd find it immoral to burn down a rainforest, and it is full of non-sentient life. The trees don't know... I still think its wrong though. If I impregnated a woman, I would want to have the baby. To tell you the truth, I don't like abortion. So then what is the difference between burning down a rainforest and aborting a child? Well, omitting the number of lifeforms killed in the act, nothing. Because what makes both things inherently wrong is that there is someone there to witness it. There is someone there to miss the thing that never was a child even if its not the mother.

If a comet strikes a planet and wipes out a civilization, its a castrophe, if a comet strikes an uninhabited planet, its an astronomical light show... the difference? Perception... the perception of a sentient being to give it weight, to give it value...

That stuff about the pro-abortion, nuke the world stuff.... was being facetious. Although I do feel sometimes that we'd all be better off dead, but I can't think of a person in the world who has a right to actually do it. And its only if everyone dies... everybody, or no one... unfortunately, humanity has no intention of going with no one.
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Old August 5, 2003, 17:26   #327
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So you assume a woman is capable of full-time studying and/or working during the ~9 month pregnancy?
It's difficult, but I'm sure the school would accomodate her, as would her workplace to reduce her load while she was pregnant.

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Even if she would be, it could be even dangerous or fatal to the fetus (e.g. miscarriage) and the mother (e.g. depression, fever), so is that also something what you anti-abortionists find fully acceptable and such be put aside, while struggling to be so, ack, morally correct?
So I must advocate the morally correct position that all women should be strapped to bed while pregnant

I have no problems with women who work while pregnant.
How about you?

There are plenty of folks willing to help a pregnant woman with her pregnancy. It's just a matter of wanting to find them.
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Old August 5, 2003, 17:26   #328
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Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
But ultimately we all die regardless of whether its deliberate or not, so let's not go into the realm of death but rather stay in the realm of the living. You place a value on your life... you don't want to die regardless of the fact that one day YOU WILL. It is the only guarantee in life. If you kill someone, you took away the most valuable thing to them... their life (or maybe second most valuable if they have kids). Regardless, thats the immoral act.

But if you kill some living tissue that does not know its alive and therefore can place no value on how much its life is worth to them.

But that isn't even the point of all this! The point of all this is that I was saying that the life of a child who is aware of its existence and lives in misery is worse than the experience of a child that does not know it exists and will never know it exists. And I feel that I've argued that point fairly well...

If you want to debate with me on the issue of whether or not taking that life is immoral or not is another ball game... I'd find it immoral to burn down a rainforest, and it is full of non-sentient life. The trees don't know... I still think its wrong though. If I impregnated a woman, I would want to have the baby. To tell you the truth, I don't like abortion. So then what is the difference between burning down a rainforest and aborting a child? Well, omitting the number of lifeforms killed in the act, nothing. Because what makes both things inherently wrong is that there is someone there to witness it. There is someone there to miss the thing that never was a child even if its not the mother.

If a comet strikes a planet and wipes out a civilization, its a castrophe, if a comet strikes an uninhabited planet, its an astronomical light show... the difference? Perception... the perception of a sentient being to give it weight, to give it value...

That stuff about the pro-abortion, nuke the world stuff.... was being facetious. Although I do feel sometimes that we'd all be better off dead, but I can't think of a person in the world who has a right to actually do it. And its only if everyone dies... everybody, or no one... unfortunately, humanity has no intention of going with no one.
u still haven't refuted my point. so instead of the classic trap of me simply responding ad infinitum and our argument digressing into inane avenues. I will simply point out that yet again, a person, no matter how intelligent or sentient DOES NOT KNOW ITS DEAD. so if u use the argument that "a fetus doesn't know its been killed, or what its lost," or anything involving that concept. then its perfectly valid to point out that neither does an adult.
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Old August 5, 2003, 17:30   #329
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They successfully shift the focus from what abortion is really about (preventing whole lifes of being ruined) to their pet issue, that is whether destroying foetuses is murder or not.
Um... if the person believes abortion is murder because the fetus is a person and deserves rights, ISN'T THAT MORE IMPORTANT than a silly 'whole life being ruined' rational? I mean, really.
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Old August 5, 2003, 17:32   #330
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Or rather one kind of women's suffering: the post abortion psychologic trauma (Obiwan).
Asuka:

I don't discount that women can be depressed after pregnancy. I just have facts to compare the two forms of depression, with post-abortion seeming a greater problem for most woman than post-natal depression, at least when looking at suicide.
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