Koreans and the Early Game

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

I'm about to begin a game as the Koreans, on a huge world with cultural linking on (continents, 4 billion years, roaming barbs). My likeliest neighbors will probably be the Asians (Japan, China, Mongolia and India) plus some mid-east types (Arabia, Persia, etc.).

I begin the game with Alphabet and Bronze working.

I really have no idea how to proceed. I have few strengths to play to: I neither can build roads/improvements quickly, nor can I build granaries right off the bat, to REX hard... I do not possess cheap barracks, for early war... even culture I cannot spread quickly until I acquire Literature.

How can I achieve a desireable position as the Koreans, without totally kickin' land?

Please, anyone with experience or ideas, help me out.

(Note: this morning I did try a game, building about 10 cities, about 7 barracks, and a few vet horsemen... the Mongols and Arabs out traded/expanded me, and the Mongols attacked, leading to an expensive and indecisive war... I gave up. I don't want a repeat of this experience... I'd be happy with any empire as long as I have a tech lead, really)

[jshelr]

IMO, you seem to be doing the right things.

If you are playing on higher levels, getting an early tech lead is not a reasonable goal, however. It is probably better to think in terms of early war and extortion or longer term building and an eventual tech lead. With Korea, the building approach can be supplemented with a run toward the Great Library where a focused effort has a very good chance to succeed.

[Harovan]

On your place I would:

- Start on 100% Pottery research. Get them granaries ASAP
- REX like mad. Build a granary (or better even 2 or 3). Claim every patch of land you can get peacefully. Don't go into early war adventures. Your empire should be more productive than the others (except India) due to less corruption.
- Beeline for Literature and build Libraries soon.

Commercial + Scientific --> Research monster. That's the plan.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

My main concern is with the expanionists. While I am REXing and researching, they are learning for free the techs I am researching... I'm looking through various forums now to try to figure out "what the AI will research," but even with this knowledge I'm a bit at a loss.

Of course, I've only tried one game, for about 45 mins. this morning... I had two luxuries but the land aside from that wasn't top notch... still, surrounded by militarists, I was thretened... I did indeed build 3 granaries, but I found that while this was helpful, I was still hemmed in by Japan and Mongolia.

It's all a matter of land, in terms of that game... Mongolia was to the North, well esconsed in mountains and hills, with iron and horses... I suppose another game, where they don't luck out, or where I start in a more central position, might yield better results.

Definitely grabbing the GL early seems be a good plan.

[ToeTruck]

I think Sir Ralph has the right idea...with a couple of suggestions.

As with any civ, you have to work their strengths. The biggest strength of the Koreans are:

1) Alphabet
2) Reduced corruption from being Commercial
3) Cheap libraries

REXing is definitely the way to go, but you don't have to strike out for Pottery ASAP to be a good REXer.

I usually research Writing at 1 beaker/turn (10% or 20%) and save up the cash. Once I've made contact with a couple of civs, I can buy Pottery for about 50 gold. Most people build one Settler before building a Granary anyhow so this times out pretty well.

You can even make contact, determine they have Pottery, and use Barracks as a lead item for the Granary. Hopefully, by the time Barracks is about to be built, the price of Pottery has dropped a bit.

Once you do start REXing, think about your city placement carefully. Most people adopt a single spacing strategy which they apply no matter which civ they are playing. I usually play tight 3-spacing when I'm a war-monger, but use 4- or even 5-spacing when I'm a building. When I'm really REXing well, I "leap-frog" over perfectly good sites and then backfill later.

Once you get Writing after 40 turns, pump up the research to bring Literature in as quickly as possible and start buiding the Great Library. I often use my capital as a Settler farm (with a Granary) until I discover Literature. Then I switch to the GL and use my Workers to develop that city. This works fine under Monarch and even Emperor, but has some limitations under Deity.

And...then there's the great relationship between REXing, being Commercial, and cheap Libraries. When playing a builder approach, I set my cities fairly far apart and rush a Library as soon as I can. This allows me to claim as much space as possible and let the Culture fill in the gaps...while the Commercial trait helps with corruption. If a rival settles a city between yours before the Library's culture kicks in, don't be hasty. Consider it a good source of workers and maybe a leader or two and declare War when you are most ready.

Or, if you are in a very hilly region, you can gamble on having a source of Iron and research Iron Working at 1 beaker/turn instead of Alphabet, but that's true of any Scientific Civ.

Since I prefer to build first and war second, I often research Iron Working after Literature because it's usually pretty cheap by then. That allows me to do a little targetted warring while the Great Library is being built. This approach can be very effective as long as you don't have a long border to defend.

That's what I know.

- TT

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Thanks for the advice ToeTruck.

[Harovan]

If you know for sure from the beginning, that you have neighbors, the slow research (or even 0% science) is definitely the way to go. But there is always the opportunity, that you're on an island, even with the continents map setting.

Pottery usually can be researched in 10-15 turns, means it is ready before the first settler goes and often even before contact is made. If you are on an island indeed, you haven't lost research on the way to map making (your first target). And if you didn't find anyone till the settler is at 1 turn remaining, it means you have at least a lot of space to expand, and you can afford to switch that prebuild to a granary immediately. Having a granary in the very first city is like REXing on steroids, even without a food bonus resource.

[Master Zen]

Korea is all about its traits.

Beeline for Literature so you can get those cheap Libraries which not only work wonders for your science output but also add culture. Libraries are cheaper than Temples with scientific civs. If you can also net the Colossus, that would be an even greater bonus.

Have you ever tried RCP? (Ring City Placement). It is devastatingly effective with commercial civs. Try taking advantage of it especially if you have enough land that you can perhaps risk some not as good city sites in order to make your other good cities incredibly productive.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

RNC is fine with me, but the real issue I'm having is being outclassed my by neighboring civs in terms of both REXing and research. I'm able to keep up with both, but up against the other Asians and then either the Europeans or Mid-Easterners, I cannot seem to attain a lead... it's nice to have the cheap libraries, but that doesn't seem to stop the expanionists in particular from keeping on par or ahead of me in terms of tech.

Admittedly, I haven't seemed to get very good land as the Koreans so far... the RNG seems to persistently give the Koreans shoddy land, or rich land in a position of isolation.

So, what should I go for first: MapMaking or Literature?

[Harovan]

Map Making if you're isolated, Literature otherwise.

And expansionists cease to have an advantage as soon as they hit the medieval age. Wait till they whored around the techs, then buy them cheap. Heaven forbid you buy a tech which only one civ has, unless you see the opportunity do sell it with profit. You will end even in tech, but with Libraries and Marketplaces built your research capability will be vastly better than of those, who used to "find" the techs. This is the time to launch your own research.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

So, in other words, you would accept a slight lag in the early game, not agressing (other than REXing agressively), researching Literature first - one city building the Great Library asap - then going for Currency, and building libraries and marketplaces aplenty?

[Harovan]

Yes, that's the plan. You are commercial. You make more money than they. Multiply it. Play out your strength. A lag in the ancient age means nothing.

EDIT: By the way, if you want to avoid the lag, just get the GL. The AIs often neglect on Literature, use that fact.

[Arrian]

Yahweh,

Though I'm no expert (Com/Sci is a trait combo I haven't played in a long while... which means I'm due, actually), I think the problem here is you want a tech lead right away (or as soon as possible).

It's usually a better idea to accept parity or even be behind for a bit (so long as this does not interefere with your getting the wonders you want/need, which, with prebuilds, shouldn't be that big a deal) in order to build up your civ, and then explode forward, gaining and holding a tech lead later in the game (mid-late medieval onward).

If you are doing your own research at more than 10%, then beelining for libraries and building them all over makes sense. If you are doing 40-turn research, frankly, I would suggests getting marketplaces down first.

I will often build the GL while doing 40-turn research and building courthouses, markets, aqueducts, harbors, etc (everything BUT libraries). Then, with a huge wad of cash and tech parity, I suddenly build a TON of libraries and crank up my research. Often this results in me blasting ahead in tech, particularly if I've been a good little boy and not used my GA yet...

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

To make an admission I'm sort of ashamed of, I have yet to play a game where I research at 10%, or accept 40-turn discoveries, in the early game. Bear in mind I'm still playing Regent here (yes, I'm probably ready for Monarch but I'm not moving on until I've won as every civ, and that takes time), so it hasn't occurred to me to try this out. Maybe I will try it this game.

After using Seoul to send out a settler or two, you would begin the prebuild for the GL? I've been using my captial as a settler pump mostly, building the GL only when it becomes availible... I will also try this strategy.

Unfortunately, I'll have to wait until the weekend to try this out... I've become quite a good little warmonger, but the peaceful strategies for a "sleeper" civ like Korea still allude me a bit.

Thanks for the help, everyone.

[Harovan]

I wouldn't build the GL in the capital. Build it in a close core city and pump it up to the happiness limit by adding workers (don't let it grow - too slow).

Arrian: Good approach, to max out money first, and then rushbuy lots of libs at once.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Hehn, I'll have to try all this out. I'd much rather just kill all my neighbors but I guess that's not an option so much, as the Koreans.

[jshelr]

Arrian: "I will often build the GL while doing 40-turn research and building courthouses, markets, aqueducts, harbors, etc (everything BUT libraries). Then, with a huge wad of cash and tech parity, I suddenly build a TON of libraries and crank up my research."

This works well. I extend it to universities and postpone the catch up phase to the start of the industrial era. Not building libraries and universites saves piles of money and shifts shields to units builds. Meantime, markets and banks cause the gold to flow in. In Korea's case, if some of the wider city spacing advocated above is used, we need to come up with a building to expand city borders, and libraries might do that job.

[Arrian]

As you guys know, I play as a bloodthirsty maniac, but I have been playing commercial civs of late (Carthage, Rome).

It is with commercial civs that I use tighter city spacing, figuring that the boost to the OCN is best used by packing in more cities (keep in mind that my "tighter spacing" is probably either normal spacing, or wider, to many of the upper level players here). I'm basically talking about City-tile-tile-tile-City, with some City-tile-tile-City occasionally thrown in.

There is little functional difference between using 10% research and warmongering, beating techs out of the AI and using 10% research and building the GL. Same end result, and often a similar shield outlay (though the former allows you to try for leaders ). Anyway, since I'm not researching on my own, I don't see the point in building and paying upkeep on libraries.

I'd rather make my cities more efficient (courthouses), larger (aqueducts), and wealthier/happier (markets). Libraries really come into their own once you're in republic with large cities that aren't losing too much commerce to corruption. I will, however, sometimes build 1 libary in my capitol if I am planning on doing a burst of research to nab a tech first and trade it. But otherwise, libraries are kinda down the list.

SR - I don't typically rush the libraries w/gold, except in certain cases (Colossus city, want the library done so I can start a Copernicus prebuild, or something like that).

-Arrian

p.s. Ever played a dominant game out to the end (SS) with a commercial civ? It's INSANE how much money you end up with. I just finished a game as Rome (Domination in the early modern age... dumbass Zulu just couldn't leave me alone) wherein I had over 20,000 gold and literally could not spend it. My home cities were fully developed. My "colonial possessions" were getting there (rushing everything after a 1-turn wait). 4-turn research. 99% approval rating (1% being specialists). I couldn't spend as fast as it was coming in. It has been my most dominant game (vis-a-vis the AI) ever. I even managed to own every surviving wonder (oracle razed by others), with almost all of them built or rushed myself. And all of them worked for me (all continent-wide wonders on my continent, Colossus captured close enough to FP to be useful, etc). That game rocked.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Ugh, how can you warmonger as the Koreans though?

Assuming you're going for Lit/Currency at a low tech rate, and trading for Iron Working/HR, your neighbors - who you'll buy these military techs from, presumably - will have horsies and swordsmen to fight back with, by the time you build them.

Building barracks is, of course, no problem, but I was discouraged from this tack when I did exactly this (not lowering my tech, but otherwise the same). I had about 7 cities with barracks, and horses... the Mongols started a war with me, and they were sending down swordsmen... I quit that game because I knew I could fend them off, but I wasn't sure if I could win, and my other neighbors were pulling ahead of me in every way.

Could just be luck of the draw - those Mongols were on hilly terrain, with iron... I could try it again... but warmongering seems like such a poor choice. I would definitely not say it's a poor choice for the other Sci/Com combo, but then again, Koreans don't have hoplites.

[jshelr]

Questions from above:

"Ever played a dominant game out to the end (SS) with a commercial civ?"

"Ugh, how can you warmonger as the Koreans though?"

In answer to these questions, Korea just finished a military or conquest win on my computer last night. Having only one face left on the circle is fun.

After a tough warmonger start in the middle of a pangea map surrounded by Persia, Rome, and the Mongols, Korea went builder while the squabbling neighbors fought to the end. Korea, as Arrian pointed out, is a great civ for the late game research effort and, as I recall, the UN started a golden age. Korea ended up with MA far before anyone else had mechanized infantry and tried for a 4-civs-in-one-turn ending. Didn't quite make it, although we did use up 15 settlers grabbing RR tiles to extend the blitz in a fun effort.

To make a long story short, in answer to the second question, I believe that humans armed with archers and spears can defeat AI civs who have a full ancient era capability of horsemen and swords nearly every time. Every civ is a warmongers' civ from this point of view.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by jshelr
To make a long story short, in answer to the second question, I believe that humans armed with archers and spears can defeat AI civs who have a full ancient era capability of horsemen and swords nearly every time. Every civ is a warmongers' civ from this point of view.

Well, I guess you're right. As long as you've got enough of 'em. Still, I don't fancy the odds much. But maybe I should just try a pure archer rush, every city cranking out a vet archer/sword/horseman, while the most productive city builds the GL... [sigh] Just hope those neighbors don't get their iron hooked up too soon.

[Arrian]

Yahweh,

If you're going to fight, remember to use the upgrades!

Don't build swordsmen! 30 shields per unit? That's crazy! Build warriors. Build chariots. Then use a mass upgrade. The warrior one is the most effective, since it cuts out 20 shields, whereas the chariot one only cuts out 10 (though it is cheaper). It's pretty easy to put together 10-15 veteran warriors, whether or not you're playing a militaristic civ. That force can do a lot of damage, as well as deter potential opponents.

This requires cash, of course, which is why the warmonger often uses 40-turn research.

But you don't have to warmonger. As I said, there is little functional difference between warmongering with 10% science and building the GL with 10% science (in terms of your research & development strategy. Obviously if you start getting leaders from your wars, that changes things).

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Yeah, I think it does make some difference actually, on a huge world. I want to be in a position to dominate a large continent - if I start on an "Asia only" continent I would consider restarting (I find conquering/colonizing other continents a bit of a hassle) - and hence I want to be putting my neighbors out of commission, the sooner the better.

So, 15 swordsmen aimed at, say, the Mongols, or maybe the Japanese, or whomever has techs I want to extort, seems like a good plan.

I assume, then, that my research path might be Literature-Iron Working-Currency? Waiting to trade for IW seems like too long a time...

[Arrian]

Hmm...

I'd probably go:

1) pottery @ 100%
2) writing @ 10%
3) IW (probably via trade)
4) mathematics @ 10%

If you get masonry via hut or trade, whore it around. I don't care if you get 1 gold for it! Give it up! If your neighbor builds the pyramids right before you drop 15 swordsmen on them, you'll thank me.

The reason you don't have to beeline for IW is that the first priority is REX, and the sword rush can come later. It does not take much time to pump out 10-20 warriors. If a city produces 5 shields/turn or more, it's a warrior every 2 turns (10 shields/turn is 1 per, but often those cities are better off being used for bigger projects). With 3-4 of those cities going, your army will grow quickly. Then connect iron and go.

I'd bring along a few spearmen too, to eat up archer counterattacks and to hold captured towns.

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Hmmm.... seems like to make this work, I'd need one (maybe two) settler/worker pumps, 3-5 decent-sized producer cities, and one "super" producer to build my GL. That size sound alright to you?

That way I could start conquering at around 7 or 8 cities... I always feel I build too many, and then have to spend time defending them, or expanding their cultural boundaries. (I'm talking 12-15 cities here, before I stop REXing, typically... or does that number sound better to you?)

[Arrian]

If you do it right, you can build and fight all at once. Some cities are building settlers/workers, some build units, some build improvements or wonders.

If your initial build/upgrade of units is enough to do the job, you don't need reinforcements (unless, of course, you want to bite off a bigger chunk of the AI).

I no longer really pay attention to how many cities I have when I start wars... which is probably because I will now start wars at the drop of a hat. If I see a worker I can grab, chances are I'll grab it. I'll do a 1-city archer rush (barracks, 3x archer, spearman - KILL!).

But again, you don't necessarily have to fight early to do what you seem to want to do.

You could also stay peaceful until the middle ages, angling for Leos while building hordes of horsemen. Say about 50. 50 knights will put a dent in the map.

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

No, I definitely like to take 'em down early. I just wouldn't want to send 3 archers and 1 spearman into the wide open plains to take Ta Tu for example, and then not have enough to go take Karakorum... I prefer to have 8-10 horsemen to take Karakorum right off the bat, and then mop up the remaining cities, razing where I intend to rebuild and keeping good city sites.

(note: for the above, please replace Karakorum and Ta Tu with Kyoto and Tokyo, or Dehli and Calcutta, etc.)

I guess I just need to learn when it's time to stop building settlers and start building units. A balance issue (made harder, slightly, by Korea's lack of good "war" traits)

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Arrian

I no longer really pay attention to how many cities I have when I start wars... which is probably because I will now start wars at the drop of a hat. If I see a worker I can grab, chances are I'll grab it.
-Arrian

Me too, I can not resist taking down the spearmen/settler if it gets in range, even if we just signed a peace deal.
I am not going to let them drop a city on the land I have mark for me. Forget flips, I just got two more free workers and the AI lost a spear and settler. That can't be helpful to them.

[Arrian]

I've come to really enjoy early archer wars. My ridiculous Roman game (mentioned as a p.s. above) started with an archer rush on Japan (they repopped, which gave me 100gold & a worker for peace), followed by a pruning attack on Persia (which generated a leader, who gave me the Pyramids), followed by a war of attrition with the Arabs (in which I had 8-9 elite archers, and then lost nearly all of them taking Mecca, which was on a hill), followed by the total destruction of the Arabs, Persians and Japanese with Legionaries backed by horsemen. Knights took down India.

I never really stopped fighting for very long, but went republic early and eventually went for Demo too.

Regarding the distance issue... is there more land per civ on a huge/16 than a standard/8?

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Arrian

Regarding the distance issue... is there more land per civ on a huge/16 than a standard/8?

-Arrian

I'm not sure. That's a good question. I will say, though, assuming that everyone is with equal amounts of land to expand to (never the case) and that everyone is expanding at the same pace (also never the case) there's about room for 15 cities per civ before you have to start cramming cities into lousy areas like jungles, mountains, etc.

The question is, when to stop building and start attacking? Before or after you reach that limit? Maybe that's not "the" question, but it's a question.