August 11, 2003, 04:45
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#31
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King
Local Time: 09:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Yuggoth
Posts: 1,987
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Applications programming is a race between software engineers, who strive to produce idiot-proof programs, and the Universe which strives to produce bigger idiots. - software engineers' saying
So far, the Universe is winning.
- applications programmers' saying
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August 11, 2003, 04:47
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#32
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Emperor
Local Time: 10:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: A pub.
Posts: 3,161
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If you're libertarian, the US is socialist, too.
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August 11, 2003, 04:49
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#33
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Warlord
Local Time: 07:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 155
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Azazel
If you're libertarian, the US is socialist, too.
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haha true. I don't think the US is the topic right now though.
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August 11, 2003, 04:51
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#34
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Settler
Local Time: 08:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
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The point was that the social policies of member states have not made EU policies "socialist". Also, your examples are rather weak.
"the massive amounts of taxation."
Not so much different from say the US when adjusted for tax subsidies and double taxation. Or is the US socialist, too, in your opinion?
" the massive amts of subsidies"
Ever heard of EU state aid law? The subsidies covered by that policy fell from 1.5 to 1 % of GDP over the last 10 years. EU agriculture subsidies are about as bad as those in the US.
"socialized healthcare"
AFAIK that's only the UK.
"large welfare programs"
Welfare? What exactly?
"uber powerful unions"
Their power varies a lot. One aspect is that there is no closed shop in most countries - not sure whether the UK still has it.
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“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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August 11, 2003, 04:54
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#35
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Emperor
Local Time: 10:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Vilnius, Lithuania
Posts: 3,565
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I was suprised by Colon, when he said that France had one of the lowest unionisation rates in the industrialised world.
__________________
Originally posted by Serb:Please, remind me, how exactly and when exactly, Russia bullied its neighbors?
Originally posted by Ted Striker:Go Serb ! :doitnow!:
Originally posted by Pekka:If it was possible to capture the essentials of Sepultura in a dildo, I'd attach it to a bicycle and ride it up your azzes.
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August 11, 2003, 04:55
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#36
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Warlord
Local Time: 07:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 155
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Quote:
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Originally posted by HershOstropoler
The point was that the social policies of member states have not made EU policies "socialist". Also, your examples are rather weak.
"the massive amounts of taxation."
Not so much different from say the US when adjusted for tax subsidies and double taxation. Or is the US socialist, too, in your opinion?
" the massive amts of subsidies"
Ever heard of EU state aid law? The subsidies covered by that policy fell from 1.5 to 1 % of GDP over the last 10 years. EU agriculture subsidies are about as bad as those in the US.
"socialized healthcare"
AFAIK that's only the UK.
"large welfare programs"
Welfare? What exactly?
"uber powerful unions"
Their power varies a lot. One aspect is that there is no closed shop in most countries - not sure whether the UK still has it.
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yes the US is pretty socialist. tho less so than europe. and its completely laffable that europe is socialist yet u maintain the EU isnt YET u maintain that the EU has the same economic control as the federal gov't.
ur a joke man.
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August 11, 2003, 04:59
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#37
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Settler
Local Time: 08:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
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"yes the US is pretty socialist"
Ok, so your definition of "socialism" is so wide that it means nothing. Ok.
"and its completely laffable that europe is socialist yet u maintain the EU isnt YET u maintain that the EU has the same economic control as the federal gov't."
Can anyone translate this, please?
"ur a joke man"
You are a little confused, it seems.
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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August 11, 2003, 05:03
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#38
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Warlord
Local Time: 07:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 155
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Quote:
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Originally posted by HershOstropoler
"yes the US is pretty socialist"
Ok, so your definition of "socialism" is so wide that it means nothing. Ok.
"and its completely laffable that europe is socialist yet u maintain the EU isnt YET u maintain that the EU has the same economic control as the federal gov't."
Can anyone translate this, please?
"ur a joke man"
You are a little confused, it seems.
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I'll talk slow. u agree europe is socialist. yet u maintain the eu isnt. and u also maintain that the EU has the same economic control over europe that the US federal gov't has. this is illogical captain.
its also funny that just cuz I think taking half(the US) or over half(europe) of someone's tax money constitutes "pretty socialist" that my definition is "too vague." honestly u r one of the more inept ppl on this forum.
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August 11, 2003, 05:06
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#39
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Settler
Local Time: 08:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
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"u agree europe is socialist"
You fail reading comprehension. You replace social with socialist.
"u also maintain that the EU has the same economic control over europe that the US federal gov't has"
You fail reading comprehension again. You replace power with control.
"its also funny that just cuz I think taking half(the US) or over half(europe) of someone's tax money"
Who takes half of the tax money?
"honestly u r one of the more inept ppl on this forum."
Says the person who can't even properly structure a simple sentence.
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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August 11, 2003, 05:07
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#40
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Warlord
Local Time: 07:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 155
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Quote:
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Originally posted by HershOstropoler
"u agree europe is socialist"
You fail reading comprehension. You replace social with socialist.
"u also maintain that the EU has the same economic control over europe that the US federal gov't has"
You replaced
its also funny that just cuz I think taking half(the US) or over half(europe) of someone's tax money constitutes "pretty socialist" that my definition is "too vague." honestly u r one of the more inept ppl on this forum.
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wutever man. sure throw "u can't read" or wutever inane crap u want.
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August 11, 2003, 05:16
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#41
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Emperor
Local Time: 10:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Vilnius, Lithuania
Posts: 3,565
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Bambirbyja kirgudu all over again.
__________________
Originally posted by Serb:Please, remind me, how exactly and when exactly, Russia bullied its neighbors?
Originally posted by Ted Striker:Go Serb ! :doitnow!:
Originally posted by Pekka:If it was possible to capture the essentials of Sepultura in a dildo, I'd attach it to a bicycle and ride it up your azzes.
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August 11, 2003, 05:18
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#42
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Warlord
Local Time: 07:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 155
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yah I'm just going to stop. I can feel myself getting sucked in by pure antagonism. find another hobby hersho
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August 11, 2003, 05:19
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#43
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Settler
Local Time: 08:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
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Poor sob.
But it's off-topic anyway.
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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August 11, 2003, 06:20
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#44
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Emperor
Local Time: 08:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: voice of reason
Posts: 4,092
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Frozzy
The EU only aids those poor nations, and is a hinderance to economic powers (e.g. Britain).
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Germany, France all get hindered by the EU. Indeed!
ata
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August 11, 2003, 06:27
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#45
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Emperor
Local Time: 07:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Khoon Ki Pyasi Dayan (1988)
Posts: 3,951
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No, the European Union isn't socialist. The stability goals of the EMU prevent the very possibility of just legislation or fighting unemployment effectively. The EU is a major sponsor of the third-world-crippling GATS agreement and has consistently pushed for "free" trade and globalisation while maintaining enormous trade barriers to the outside world. The EU sponsors, on a large scale, corporations and mass farmers, it's deeply undemocratic and run by a cabal of corporate-sponsored comissioners, it's actively deregulatory and structurally neoliberal.
Which is why I'm for it turning into a superstate.
Does that sound like a contradiction? I believe that the citizens of the EU need to grab hold of the power while there's still a chance and build real democracy from below. I believe the only way we can safeguard the future of europe from the militarists and right-wingers is if we go in and fight now, left-wingers all over Europe working in solidarity to make the EU something we can stand for. I believe there are many positive things with the EU - the subsidiarity principle, the minority policy, the potential for getting at eco-criminals and tax evaders - and that we're inextricably stuck in it anyway, and that it's our duty to turn it into a real democratic unit.
If you read swedish you might be interested in the organisation I'm currently working with: http://www.vansterforemu.se/
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August 11, 2003, 06:55
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#46
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King
Local Time: 08:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: All Connections That Have Been Made Are Now Dead
Posts: 2,981
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did anyone else find that snapcase post puke inducing?
'[the EU is] activly deregulatory'
tell that to any british business and let me know what the reply is
__________________
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
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August 11, 2003, 06:58
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#47
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Settler
Local Time: 08:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
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I knew that the opposite stereotype would come up too.
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“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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August 11, 2003, 07:20
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#48
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Emperor
Local Time: 09:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,278
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I see, EU threads become increasingly popular here now
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Banana
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August 11, 2003, 07:30
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#49
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Prince
Local Time: 16:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Smothered in delicious yellow chemical sludge.
Posts: 782
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Buck Birdseed
If you read swedish you might be interested in the organisation I'm currently working with: http://www.vansterforemu.se/
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I didn't know there was any such organization
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The enemy cannot push a button if you disable his hand.
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August 11, 2003, 08:21
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#50
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Emperor
Local Time: 03:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: USA
Posts: 3,197
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LOOK! UP In THE SKY! It's a bird! It's a plane! No, it's supersta.......no wait, it's an American F-15.
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"I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!
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August 11, 2003, 08:45
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#51
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Emperor
Local Time: 08:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: on the Emerald Isle
Posts: 5,316
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Getting back to where this started, is the EU a superstate? No.
Reason - a state is generally defined as a political entity with control over its foreign and defence policies. Those areas still (largely) rest with the national governments within the EU and will continue to do so under the new constitution.
Will the EU become a superstate? Probably.
The world is an increasingly small place with competition for resources. The economic and political muscle of a larger grouping compared to an individual state makes it more likely that europe's citizens (aka voters) will get a proportionately larger share of those resources than, say, people in africa. The present situation isn't yet bad enough to get people to vote for a more centralised, unified EU but it will become so.
The present levels of expenditure on "socialist" policies are beginning to come to an end. The pensions crisis in many EU countries, although largely manufactured in the UK case, highlights the increasing costs due to an ageing population and the doubts about how long these policies can be supported by the various national governments.
The CAP will be dead within a decade simply because fewer and fewer EU member states, especially the newer ones, are going to get any real benefit from it compared to the cost. The whole GM versus organic issue will drive this faster to its conclusion.
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Never give an AI an even break.
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August 11, 2003, 09:43
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#52
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King
Local Time: 08:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Just one more thing
Posts: 1,733
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I hope for a humble, internationalist, unmilitarist EU, not a half-hearted parody of the US. As for socialism, well, the EU is capitalist to the core, and that's unlikely to change.
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