Map making - Page 2

DrSpike · August 14, 2003, 20:37

Understandably the thread linked to raised some doubts that needed to be addressed. Namely SG pointedly asks if both parties have map-making. Perhaps he means that both parties having map making make the AI more likely to want to swap, and that the capacity is always there as you say. Perhaps he is just mistaken as well. Either way, it was worthy of clarification.

finbar · August 14, 2003, 21:01

Oh well. Slow Thinker has linked that year-old thread to this one, so we can probably look forward to an ongoing stoush.

I propose we all go into our rules.txt and change Map Making to Building Things That Float.

No. On second thoughts, Hydey will think he can build a duck.

Alexander's Horse · August 15, 2003, 07:05

this place could be a sheltered workshop

rah · August 15, 2003, 08:10

I'm convinced.

Thanks fin for confirming something I don't need to know.

Hydey · August 15, 2003, 08:23

Did finbar say duck?

or did dinbar say f

Ljube · August 15, 2003, 12:50

Quote:

Originally posted by finbar

Nong. MP and SP are exactly the same when it comes to maps. As soon as you meet another civ in the game, you have the option to exchange maps. In SP, you will just about always need the other civ to be Worshipful (or Enthusiastic, at the least) in order for them to agree to an exchange. Handing them a zillion techs usually does the job. Unless you've got a dodgy reputation. Next turn, of course, regardless, they're back to hating your guts.

Well, I must have played hundreds of games in single player and I have never been able to exchange maps with a civilisation that didn't have map making. It works like this: On our first contact, I sign a peace treaty and want to exchange maps. I know that they must be at least enthusiastic, but this one civ has been a tough nut to crack. Since they didn't have map making, and didn't want it at all, in order to exchange maps, I was forced to give them 3 extra techs even after we have reached worshipful, and then, as a second option, map making appeared, which I gave them promptly, and finally they exchanged maps with me. I emphasize that I have tried to exchange every time when they became worshipful, but success came only after I gave them map making. Coincidence?

DrSpike · August 15, 2003, 13:03

Hehe I'm not sure, but you disagreed with Finbar so he'll come by shortly to call you slow.

finbar · August 15, 2003, 20:39

Couldn't be bothered.

SlowThinker · August 15, 2003, 22:18

Ah, finbar admited a mistake...

DrSpike · August 16, 2003, 06:47

No he didn't. Have you determined whether he made one yet?

Carolus Rex · August 16, 2003, 08:51

Quote:

Originally posted by finbar
For crying out loud! It's very simple!

You have the capacity to trade maps in SP as soon as you meet another civ in the game. Just as in MP. In SP, whether an AI civ will agree to trade maps is another matter. But the capacity exists. Start an SP game, meet a civ, look at the options available under "Have A Proposal To Make". You can ask to exchange maps.

The thread to which Slow Thinker linked talks about the AI civs' willingness to trade maps. The rule of thumb is that an AI civ will probably agree to exchange maps if:

(a) Their attitude is Worshipful or Enthusiastic. They will rarely agree at a level below Enthusiastic;

(b) You have a Spotless reputation. They will rarely agree if your reputation is less than Spotless;

(c) You are allied with the AI civ in question. But even this doesn't guarantee they will agree.

So, once again, for the slow people - and the very slow person, the economist - you have the capacity to exchange maps with an AI civ from the first meeting. Whether or not the AI civ will agree to an exchange is a different matter.

No, no, no...

Ok, another economist adds to the confusion. If the AI doesn't have Map Making there will never be an exchange of maps no matter how much they regard you. The reply is always "We don't need your useless maps!".

So, while the option (or "capacity" as you put it) indeed always exists under the "Have a Proposal to Make"-menu it will never actually work without the AI having Map Making. I guess it's convenient programming (otherwise they would have needed two menus: one before Map Making is discovered and one after).

Maybe we're splitting hairs here, but that's one thing economists are good at...

Edited: Put in a space between one of the commas and one of the "no":s... Yes, it's true. Being a perfectionist slows down life so much

...

Carolus

Carolus Rex · August 16, 2003, 08:58

BTW, this reminds me of the annoyance of not being able to choose among all your techs when you want to give some of them (including Map Making to be able to trade maps) to the AI.

Carolus

DrSpike · August 16, 2003, 09:16

Hehe, that's not splitting hairs. If you are correct then Finbar was flat wrong. Guess this "slow economist" was right to try to clarify the issue.

Carolus Rex · August 16, 2003, 09:31

Well, let's hope I'm right. We've kind of singled ourselves out on this one...

Carolus

deity · August 16, 2003, 09:48

No wonder finbar said he hated Economists...

Carolus Rex · August 16, 2003, 09:55

Quote:

Originally posted by DrSpike
Hehe, that's not splitting hairs. If you are correct then Finbar was flat wrong.

What he says is ok, but it only pertains to the case when the AI has Map Making. As we economists would (elegantly!

) put it: Map Making is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for exchanging maps with the AI...

Carolus

DrSpike · August 16, 2003, 09:57

Quote:

Originally posted by deity
No wonder finbar said he hated Economists...

Hehe, all we did is post how we thought it worked, and tried to reach a consensus. We didn't try to belittle others.

Carolus Rex · August 16, 2003, 10:01

Quote:

Originally posted by deity
No wonder finbar said he hated Economists...

I wouldn't be surprised if the next police series he'll write for TV will include a serial killer slaying one economist after the other...

Carolus

Carolus Rex · August 16, 2003, 10:09

Ah yes, I can see the intro now... A retired Alan Greenspan sneaking up behind an unsuspecting banker walking down an abandoned street, a knife in his hand, whispering hoarsely to his victim: Can you say interest rate cut?

Carolus

SlowThinker · August 16, 2003, 13:49

This is an e-mail I got from La Fayette:

Quote:

Apolyton looks at me as 'unregistered' tonight; that's why I can't contribute.
Here is my opinion about swapping maps (in SP):
1) Both civs must own MapMaking
2) If the AI is worshipful, they always agree to swapping maps
3) If the AI is enthusiastic, they will often agree
4) If the AI is cordial, they will seldom agree

(I have personnally never met a result contrary to these rules IIRC)

BTW La Fayette is an economist.

Carolus Rex · August 16, 2003, 14:04

Three economists actually agreeing on something?!

Carolus

SlowThinker · August 16, 2003, 14:58

BTW who is the first one?

DrSpike · August 16, 2003, 14:59

Me.

Six Thousand Year Old Man · August 19, 2003, 10:05

I'm going to agree with the economists too (I'm a broker; we always blame the economists when something goes wrong

).

I play SP on a lot of very large maps. Consequently, a key strategy is to get MPE early, make contact and trade for maps. Both parties need to have Mapmaking for a swap to actually take place. Otherwise, you get the message 'we have no need for your frickin maps', much the way you get the message 'we have no need for your useless techs' when the AI has no technology to swap. Perhaps that was the game designer trying to keep knowledge from the human player - if the map trading option was grayed out, then we would know the AI didn't have Mapmaking (?).

Anyway, there have been MANY times I've stupidly forgotten to check whether the AI had MM after all the tech swaps, and consequently couldn't trade maps. A quick check of the intelligence screen, a gift of MM, and voila, now they'll trade (assuming they're Worshipful or at least Enthused). At which point I know where to send the boats full of Caravans/Crusaders

DrSpike · August 19, 2003, 10:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man
I'm going to agree with the economists too (I'm a broker; we always blame the economists when something goes wrong

).

That's funny, we blame you and your sometimes irrational exuberance.

Six Thousand Year Old Man · August 19, 2003, 11:30

Rational listlessness won't get you much of a bonus

DrSpike · August 19, 2003, 11:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man
Rational listlessness won't get you much of a bonus

Yes! That's the problem.

Obviously, us economists are far more honest.

Alexander's Horse · August 19, 2003, 23:12

Its so annoying the way brokers and economists can tell you what just happened but never with any accuracy what is about to happen.

deity · August 20, 2003, 08:17

Quote:

Originally posted by deity
No wonder finbar said he hated Economists...

No wonder finbar said he hated Economists...

Six Thousand Year Old Man · August 20, 2003, 23:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Its so annoying the way brokers and economists can tell you what just happened but never with any accuracy what is about to happen.

Some of them can, but you don't see a lot of analysis from those few. For some reason, they don't have to work for a living anymore