What If? - Page 2

Turrosh Mak · August 14, 2003, 22:32

Quote:

Originally posted by MrDictator
What if the British had joined forces with nazi Germany in attacking soviet Russia, as Hitler had intended? Russia would surely have been crushed, so there would be no cold war, and maybe Britain would still have control of its empire

Was there a possibility of this happening? What events would have lead to this unlikely and unholy union?

Verto · August 14, 2003, 22:50

What if America HAD been able to take over Canada during the 1812 war?

and...

What if US-Soviet relations had plummeted to the point where Patton's wish to go to war with the USSR was realized? Would the atomic bomb have been dropped immediately, or after a period of extended conventional warfare?

Turrosh Mak · August 14, 2003, 23:01

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
I do not see how Turkey would have had an impact at all. First off Stalin had massive T36's that he was holding back and when he let them fly the tide was turned in Russia for good.
Russia was too large to be over run by the Germans, they did not have man power or material to get the job done.
They caught Satlin by surprise and it still did not allow them to win. Not to mention we were feeding Russia with supplies and would have stepped it up if need be.
Russia was about three time the size of Germany and could lose troops forever and not run out.
Turkey was and is not even a blip on the world stage.
If they had come in Axis side, they would have fallen under Soviet rule most likely. Satlin would have demand his pound of flesh. It would have gone very harsh on Turkey to declare war on Russia.

I have to disagree with you on this one Vmxa1. Turkey is ideally placed for a strike at the Soviet Unions main oil supply source in the Transcaucus. The lend lease route of western supplies for Russia mostly went through Iran. With Turkey sitting astride that route, Japan sitting on Vladivostok, and Germany sitting on the Murmansk route, I highly doubt much would get through. And anyway, Americans think too highly of the aid we gave the Soviet Union. Lend lease helped, but it wasn't a determining factor on the Eastern front.

The entire German plan of campaign in 1942 was based on grabbing the oil fields of Maikop and Baku, not only for German use but also to deny them to the Soviets. Without petrol, T-34s don't run and LaGG 5s don't fly. If Germany could have secured Arabian and Persian oil in 1941 the entire 1942 plan in the east changes. That means no Stalingrad (and the loss of a quarter million Axis troops) and no Mediteranean front (because the Germans would have rolled up the Brits from their secure non-sea based supply lines through Turkey.

I highly recommend the book "Oil and War: How the Deadly Struggle for Fuel in WW2 Meant Victory or Defeat" by Robert Goralski. There is a nice big section about the 1942 German campaign plan.

One final note - God isn't always on the side with the biggest battalions.

Turrosh Mak · August 14, 2003, 23:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Verto
What if America HAD been able to take over Canada during the 1812 war?

and...

What if US-Soviet relations had plummeted to the point where Patton's wish to go to war with the USSR was realized? Would the atomic bomb have been dropped immediately, or after a period of extended conventional warfare?

If the USA had won the war of 1812, the half million Canadians (mostly French Royalists with no taste for revolutionaries and second generation Tory Immigrants from the American Revolution) would have had two choices: either fight a guerilla war until the USA gave up in disgust or accept the new government and make the best of it. Considering the USA had nearly 8 million people at the time, I think Canada would have been fully integrated into the USA within 30 years due to immigration and representation in Washington. I imagine it would go just like the annexation of the territory from Mexico in 1848.

I can't imagine anything that would have provoked a war with the Soviet Union before they had the bomb. It really took the communist takeover of China for the average American to wake up to the threat the Soviets posed. The Soviet Union would have had the same problem as the Japanese, being unable to attack US supply sources or production capacity while their's was vulnerable. The Soviet navy was even weaker than the Germans. The bomb would not have been used. It would tarnish our "liberator" credentials.

johncmcleod · August 15, 2003, 02:07

Did the US have influence on Britain becoming democratic? If that is so, then would the US be a democracy? And, would the US rebel when slavery was outlawed?

Turrosh Mak · August 15, 2003, 08:13

Quote:

Originally posted by johncmcleod
Did the US have influence on Britain becoming democratic?

The days of absolute monarchy died forever in Britian during the reign of Charles I (1625-1649) and the subsequent civil war between crown and parlimentary forces that brought Oliver Cromwell's dictatorship.

In fact, a better question to ask is whether the USA would be a democracy if Parliament hadn't revolted. One of the big themes of the English Civil war was taxation without parliamentary representation.

Turrosh Mak · August 16, 2003, 20:33

What if the USA had invaded Cuba during the missle crisis? The Russian commander had authorization to launch if we had... how ugly do you think it might have gotten?

korn469 · August 16, 2003, 21:04

What if Alexander the Great hadn't of died when he did and had of lived a full life, and had of left his consolidated empire with a true heir when he finally did die of old age?

zorbop · August 16, 2003, 23:12

what if the persian had beaten the greeks?

what if the confederates were victorious in the US civil war?

what if the great library had not burnt down? they say when it burnt down it set civilization back 1000 years.

Turk Man · August 18, 2003, 20:37

what if the germany won the ww1

Verto · August 18, 2003, 20:38

Hitler wouldn't have come to power.

Oerdin · August 18, 2003, 21:14

The odds are good that German could have "won" WW1 if they hadn't provoked the US into war by torpedoing civilian ships. Of course at the cost of WW1 you really can't call it a win.

A better what if is what if there was no WW1 or WW2 and instead we had a continuation of the post Napoleonic realtive calm. I mean there were still 1 on 1 wars but none of the grand wars like the 1763-1815 series.

Oerdin · August 18, 2003, 21:17

How about What if Hitler had died in 1939 right before he started the war. I suspect he would have gone down in history as the greatest German Chancelor of all time. After all he would have united German and Austria, reclaimed the Sudentenland, ended Germany's Post WW1 subserviance and economic funk, and greatly modernized the country. All that would be left to do would be to negotiate with the Allies to let the Danzig Germans vote their seccession from Poland (no small task but possible).

Mad Bomber · August 18, 2003, 22:14

Quote:

Originally posted by johncmcleod
OK, fine. For now, I'll choose one. Hitler had almost destroyed the RAF and there were hardly any airplane factories left. In real life he stopped bombing strategically and started bombing London to create terror. It was a terrible decision. What if he kept on bombing the factories and and went for the kill with the RAF. Britain would no longer have an air cover. The Germans could begin bombing England all they wanted to. They could really soften up Britain's defenses for the upcoming invasion. They would invade and Britain would be crushed. They didn't have much of an army based in England at the time. After being heavily bombarded, the British wouldn't have been able to stop German panzer divisions. So, if Britain had been lost would we still have been able to win the war?

Part of your answer is correct. The RAF would not have been destroyed but it woyuld have been pushed up north where the German Bombers could not reach. An Invasion still would not have happened for Great Britain controlled the sea. The German airforce would not have been able to destroy the British Navy and the invasion would have been crushed. If operation Sealion had been enacted, the only thing that would have changed would be that the cream of the German Army would have drowned in the English Channel instead of freezing to death in the Russian Steppes.

Turrosh Mak:

How would history have changed if the Turks and Greeks could live in peace? Israelis and Palestinians?

Turrosh Mak · August 19, 2003, 14:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad Bomber

Turrosh Mak:

How would history have changed if the Turks and Greeks could live in peace? Israelis and Palestinians?

Greeks and Turks - With nearly a thousand years of bad blood (if you count the fact that Greeks served in the Byzantine Army when the Seljuks of Rum first appeared on the Anatolian Plateau circa 1048) it's hard to see them ever getting along. It would be like trying to get back to gracious with someone after you raze a few dozen of his cities.

Israelis and Palestinians - ooh, third rail... but I'm an incautious kind of guy so I'll touch. I can understand and have some sympathy for the Palestinians in this. A truckload of people show up on your beach spouting that your land was promised to them by God. Each side lobs bombs for 15 years or so, then WW2 happens. Post war, there is so much sympathy for what happened to the Jews the Allied Powers decide to give your land away. Unfortunately for you, you and your allies are poorly led and abysmally equipped so you get your arse handed to you... 4 times (48, 56, 67, 73).

Now here is where my sympathy ends. There are Israeli Arabs, what did they have to do? Sign a pledge to be good citiziens? I look at the Palestinians who have raised 3 generations in refugee camps and I just want to scream "Get a clue! It's over! Stop living in the past and move on with your life!" They act like they're the only people in history to ever get booted off their land. After WW2, the Germans in Prussia and Silesia were forced off their land. There are some old Germans who still speak of the former DDR as Mittledeutsche (Middle Germany, East Germany is actually a third of modern Poland). There are no Prussian refugee camps because anyone who thinks Poland will ever give up those lands is in an insane asylum.

Anyway, thats not really what you asked. But as long as these two peoples claim the same land, the only peace they will know is that of the grave. I just wish one side would wipe out the other (don't care which) so we don't have to hear their shyte on the nightly news for the next half century. Personally, I wouldn't trade 10 acres of West Texas desert for the whole of the "Holy Land"

edit: spelling is da debil

Turrosh Mak · August 19, 2003, 15:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Turk Man
what if the germany won the ww1

Germany winning WW1 is not that far fetched. If the USA had not declared war in 1917, it is most likely Ludendorfs spring offensives in 1918 would have brought a negotiated peace.

There would be substantial changes in geography. Based on the Treaty of Brest Litovsk, there would be the Baltic States and a Poland that looks like the old Grand Duchy of Warsaw from Napoleonic times. An independant Ukraine would also be new.

Transcaucasus would go to Turkey.

Macedonia and parts of Thessalonika and the Dobruja would be joined to a greater Bulgaria.

The rest of Serbia would probably disappear into Austria Hungary, as well as Venetia from Italy.

Lastly, Germany would lop off another chunk of France (the rest of Lorraine more or less) as well as part of Belgium (probably to the line of the Meuse). Luxembourg would have also been annexed. Germany's colonies would have to be returned, and probably agrandized with the Congo. South Africa would be granted "independance" under new Boer leadership.

Red Revolution would rear it's ugly head in the lands of the losers, as it did in our history, but instead of Soviet Bavaria and Hungary it would be France, Italy and Russia (again). I can't really see Soviet Britain but maybe it would happen.

Ten to fifteen years after WW1, Austria-Hungary would fall apart/explode, which would probably be the signal for the Revaunchists to attack Germany and start the next Great War.

bobbo008 · August 20, 2003, 13:28

france and italy going communist would require more than losing a war, with a lot of different variables, i think, but it could obviously still had happened. My guess also is that Britain wouldn't go communist as, for one, their not on the continent, closer ties to the U.S., I think maybe having royalty would deter it (in my opinion) and finally they weren't affected as much by the war as a whole.

Turk Man · August 21, 2003, 20:42

what if the England won in war of 1812 and made the USA part of England again?

Turrosh Mak · August 23, 2003, 02:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Turk Man
what if the England won in war of 1812 and made the USA part of England again?

If Britian had won the war of 1812, its unlikely they would have been able to take over the USA. They weren't able to keep the 13 colonies when the population was less than 4 million and had divided loyalties, its unlikely they would have been able to re-establish control over 8 million Americans who had been a nation for over 30 years.

Most likely, part of Maine and Michigan would be ceded to Canada. The question is whether Britain would have been able to gain control over the new Louisianna purchase, forcing the USA to recognise the Mississippi river as its western boundary.

Turk Man · August 23, 2003, 19:58

what if Spain still rule Mexico and South America in 2003?

Turk Man · August 23, 2003, 20:02

what if Turkey beat England in Arabia?

Chilean President™ · August 23, 2003, 21:56

what if the US loss the war against Spain?

Turk Man · August 24, 2003, 12:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Chilean President
what if the US loss the war against Spain?

good one

Turrosh Mak · August 24, 2003, 19:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Turk Man
what if Turkey beat England in Arabia?

Hmm,

Turkman, maybe you could give us some idea why Turkey lost to England in Arabia, and what might have changed the situation. I assume you are talking about WW1?

I don't have all the answers. It would be nice if you would post more than just scenarios. Your opinion is as valid as mine. Give us your thoughts.

Turrosh Mak · August 24, 2003, 19:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Chilean President
what if the US loss the war against Spain?

Hmm,

Chilean President, maybe you could give us some idea why Spain lost to the US, and what the Spanish could have done to turn it around. I'm assuming you are talking about the war of 1898?

I don't have all the answers. It would be nice if you would post more than just scenarios. Your opinion is as valid as mine. Give us your thoughts.

Turk Man · August 25, 2003, 20:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Turrosh Mak

Hmm,

Turkman, maybe you could give us some idea why Turkey lost to England in Arabia, and what might have changed the situation. I assume you are talking about WW1?

I don't have all the answers. It would be nice if you would post more than just scenarios. Your opinion is as valid as mine. Give us your thoughts.

well the arab rebel ,what if the arab did not join england in arabia?

justjake73 · August 25, 2003, 21:17

Quote:

well the arab rebel ,what if the arab did not join england in arabia?

That would be like "Hey, we don't want to rebel. We enjoy being subjugated and oppressed by the Turks. So what if their empire has been in decline for the last century? We don't want to be independent!!"

Quote:

Chilean President, maybe you could give us some idea why Spain lost to the US, and what the Spanish could have done to turn it around. I'm assuming you are talking about the war of 1898?

Basically the same reason as the Arabs were able to defeat the Turks - both Spain and the Ottomans were way past their prime and lacked the forces to hold their territory against rebellious indigenous people being assisted by a better armed and better trained military of another power.

Turk Man · August 25, 2003, 22:18

Quote:

Originally posted by justjake73

That would be like "Hey, we don't want to rebel. We enjoy being subjugated and oppressed by the Turks. So what if their empire has been in decline for the last century? We don't want to be independent!!"

Basically the same reason as the Arabs were able to defeat the Turks - both Spain and the Ottomans were way past their prime and lacked the forces to hold their territory against rebellious indigenous people being assisted by a better armed and better trained military of another power.

what if the turk manger to stop the decline,made a new amry to defend the turks?

lord of the mark · August 27, 2003, 14:37

suggest all you guys take a look at Soc.history.what-if, where they take this sort of thing VERY seriously.

Mad bomber is correct. The obstacles to sealion were massive and multiple.

German invasion through Turkey has been discussed. Mainly in context of attack on mid east oil. The key obstacle is logistics. Turkey had one single track rail line to the eastern border, not enough to support an invasion force (much less move the oil back) Invasion of russia is even more problematic, given the terrain.

A proper what-if should have a point of departure - when do things begin to deviate from actual history and why.

Turk Man · August 27, 2003, 19:37

Quote:

Originally posted by lord of the mark
suggest all you guys take a look at Soc.history.what-if, where they take this sort of thing VERY seriously.

Mad bomber is correct. The obstacles to sealion were massive and multiple.

German invasion through Turkey has been discussed. Mainly in context of attack on mid east oil. The key obstacle is logistics. Turkey had one single track rail line to the eastern border, not enough to support an invasion force (much less move the oil back) Invasion of russia is even more problematic, given the terrain.

A proper what-if should have a point of departure - when do things begin to deviate from actual history and why.

what is the website?