Wondering about Howard Dean? Want to know more?

[Sava]

Here's a good article from www.commondreams.org

As you guys may or may not know, Howard Dean is the Democratic primary candidate that I find myself in agreement with. Right Wing commentators are trying to smear Dean as being too left or too liberal... hopefully this article will shed some light on such ignorant comparisons.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0811-09.htm

I won't paste the full article because it is too big. The first part is mostly for Greenies who are ideologically blinded and refuse to acknowledge that the Green party has no chance in hell. The second part is about explaining Dean's position on various issues. Judge for yourself.

The author explains the following are Dean's "down sides". If a liberal author considers these platforms "down sides", conservatives might want to pay close attention.

Dealing With Dean's Downsides

++ Military Spending: Dean has rightfully aroused anger and skepticism from progressives with his claims that he will not reduce military spending. It appears, however, that these statements are a political dodge of sorts to avoid media characterizations of Dean as the "antiwar candidate" and "weak on national security." Dean has told audiences that he would not reduce military spending but rather "redirect" it toward the development and implementation of renewable energy technology (an issue he ties to defense), homeland security measures to fund local first responders, inspect container ships and protect nuclear sites (a move that Alexander Cockburn himself recently called on Bush to make), and the purchase of old nuclear materials in Russia.

++ Military/Foreign Policy: Dean has called Bush's policy of renewed nuclear weapons development "insane" and opposes every significant component of "Star Wars" missile defense, declaring that any missile defense programs he would support will at least remain in compliance with the 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty. Dean also supports (with provisions, in some cases) the comprehensive nuclear test ban, the Law of the Sea Treaty, the Biological Warfare Convention Protocol and the International Criminal Court (a website for the United Nations Association of the United States lists Dean as an "outspoken supporter" of the ICC). Dean supports signing the 1997 Landmine Treaty and believes that a similar treaty should be used to ban cluster bombs.

Norman Solomon mistakenly took Dean to task because "at his official campaign kickoff, Dean gave a 26-minute speech and didn't mention Iraq at all. It was a remarkable performance from someone who has spent much of the last year pitching himself as some kind of antiwar candidate." Despite the strength of this rebuke, Solomon failed to mention that Dean's speech contained nine paragraphs dealing with foreign policy, and that far from avoiding Iraq, Dean used the Iraq invasion to address a broader theme. Among other things, Dean declared: "Since the time of Thomas Paine and John Adams, our founders implored that we were not to be the new Rome. We are not to conquer and suppress other nations to submit to our will. ... We must rejoin the world community. America is far stronger as the moral and military leader of the world than we will ever be by relying solely on military power. ... [T]here is a fundamental difference between the defense of our nation and the doctrine of preemptive war espoused by this administration. The President's group of narrow-minded ideological advisors are undermining our nation's greatness in the world. They have embraced a form of unilateralism that is even more dangerous than isolationism. ... [T]hey would present our face to the world as a dominant power prepared to push aside any nation with which we do not agree." Since the speech, Dean has consistently spoken out on Iraq and many of the occupation policies. He has called on Bush administration officials to resign for misleading the American public, and continues to criticize those Democrats who voted for the Iraq resolution. He received significant critical press after saying that "the ends don't justify the means," when asked about the deaths of Saddam Hussein's sons. On Dean's official website, one can find commentaries by campaign staffers like Ezra Klein condemning Bush's policies that force young, poor Americans to "fight and die in wars of choice."

++ Israel/Palestine: As Mid East analysts Ahmed Nassef and Stephen Zunes have pointed out, Dean's positions regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are very disappointing for those who seek a just and sustainable peace in the region. Unfortunately, they're also standard amongst the Democratic presidential hopefuls. All nine candidates essentially tow the same line: they support a vague "two-state solution," the removal of settlements (without details as to how many or when), and the cessation of terrorism, and they concede that further details will have to be worked out by the relevant parties. JTA, a Jewish news service, recently had a piece focusing on a hawkish Democratic fundraiser named Peter Buttenwieser, who notes that the "litmus test for me is a candidate has to be good on Israel. ... But all of these candidates are good on Israel." This pattern is hardly new. Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey St. Clair wrote that Paul Wellstone, "in common with ninety-eight other senators, [has been] craven on Israel." Even Kucinich chose not to join nearly two dozen fellow representatives in voting against a strongly worded May 2003 House resolution that "supported Israel's incursions into Palestinian territories, and apparently endorsed as justifiable the brutality and bloodshed the Israeli Army inflicted on the unarmed civilians there," according to prominent English-language daily Arab News.

++ Trade: Dean has pledged to renegotiate current trade agreements (including NAFTA) and oppose new trade agreements that do not require the enforcement of internationally recognized workers' rights and environmental standards. He will also "oppose any further rounds of the World Trade Organization agreements that do not make substantial progress on incorporating" these rights and standards. When asked about policy toward Africa and the Caribbean Basin at the NAACP Presidential Forum, Dean voiced his support for debt forgiveness and remarked that "we need to get the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank off the backs of these countries. ... [T]he conditions that are attached mean that the whole country depends on a free market system in order to get food to the poorest people in that country. It doesn't make any sense at all. ... [N]ow that we're imposing a Western economic model on African countries, we find there's famine. What a big surprise. We need to work cooperatively with African governments instead of telling them what to do." Dean was awarded the inaugural Paul Wellstone Award by the AFL-CIO in January 2003 for "Exceptional Support of Workers' Freedom to Form Unions," and maintained a 100% rating with the AFL-CIO's Committee on Political Education while serving as a state representative. He is also a vocal proponent of workplace democratization, in which employees own the majority of a firm's stock.

++ Death Penalty: John Kerry opposes capital punishment, while Dean favors it for individuals who commit acts of terrorism or who murder young children or police officers. One wonders, though, whether Kerry's position is really preferable. He told NBC's Tim Russert that he opposes the death penalty "because I'm for a worse punishment. I think it is worse to take somebody and put them in a small cell for the rest of their life, deprived of their freedom, never to be paroled. Now, I think that's tougher. ... I don't think that - you know, dying is scary for a while, but in the end, the punishment is gone," and he couples his opposition with desires for harder prison service commitments so we don't have "some cushy situation where they live off the fat of the land in prison." Either way, it should be noted that Dean did not "suddenly [abandon] his perfectly acceptable reasons for opposing the death penalty ... to express his support for the machinery of death - a transparent bid for votes in the primary elections in southern states like South Carolina," as Alan Maass of the International Socialist Review writes. It is widely recognized that Dean's opinions on the death penalty began changing in 1994 after the Polly Klaas murder, and statements by Dean throughout his terms as Governor reflect this change in thinking. Dean strongly supports the Innocence Protection Act and has said that he will establish a Presidential commission to "analyze the causes of wrongful convictions around the country and recommend additional reforms at the federal and state level."

++ Gun Legislation: The "A" rating that Dean has received from the NRA is chilling, but it has to be taken in context. As Lance Bukoff points out, "the NRA rating system is actually rather 'passive' in its assessment of politicians. Put simply but accurately, an 'A' rating is 'earned' by not voting for or promoting any laws which would restrict gun ownership. Dean observes that Vermont is not NYC or LA or Philadelphia. Vermont is a state where gun violence does not occur in any way significant enough [in 2002, Vermont had five homicides] to warrant restrictive gun control laws, unless you take the deer's point of view, of course. So he says Vermont does not need them, and he did not sign any, and he did not promote any as a governor, and as a consequence he gets an 'A' rating from the NRA, but not because he shares a duck blind with NRA members. He goes further. He says he supports the Brady bill, he supports the assault gun ban, and he supports closing the gun show sale loopholes. And he also tells voters in states like New York, 'We don't need gun control laws in Vermont, but you probably do, and if that's the case you should make them.'"

++ Medicinal Marijuana: Dean's reputation as a hard-headed skeptic of medicinal marijuana belies his actual position, which is more nuanced (if a bit neurotic, presumably because of his experience as a doctor). Dean doesn't "believe the war on drugs is a criminal matter; it's a public health matter. I think to throw users in jail is silly." He recently told the Liberal Oasis that his "opposition to medical marijuana is based on science, not based on ideology. More specifically, I don’t think we should single out a particular drug for approval through political means when we approve other drugs through scientific means. When I'm President, I will require the FDA to evaluate marijuana with a double blind study with the same kinds of scientific protocols that every other drug goes through. I'm certainly willing to abide by what the FDA says." After resisting a medicinal marijuana bill that had made its way through the Vermont legislature for the reasons stated above, Dean eventually did sign a bill in June 2002 that established a task force "to investigate and assess options for legal protections which will allow seriously ill Vermonters to use medical marijuana without facing criminal prosecution under Vermont law." The Marijuana Policy Project said the bill set "the wheels in motion for solid patient protection."

++ The Environment: Dean's Vermont "has one of the most progressive environmental programmes in America" according to the London Times. As former Vermont radio and television talk show host Jeff Kaufman points out, "During his decade in office, Governor Dean helped protect more land from development than all previous governors combined; ... he administered a 'best practices' agriculture plan that preserves land and water quality; he helped form the nation's first statewide energy efficiency utility (preventing more than one million tons of greenhouse gas emissions since 2000); and he championed a commuter rail system to lower traffic congestion and pollution while diminishing urban sprawl (in its last report on sprawl, the Sierra Club ranked Vermont as the second best state in America for land use planning)." Vermont also followed California's lead in establishing regulations on greenhouse gas emissions that go beyond standards set in the Kyoto Protocol. According to the New York Times, Dean "is calling for the auto industry to build cars that get 40 miles per gallon by 2015 and for 20 percent of the nation's electricity to come from renewable sources by 2020. ... [A]s president he would close the loophole that exempts sport utility vehicles from gas-mileage standards, ... make the Environmental Protection Agency cabinet level and work to re-establish the Clinton administration rules limiting roads in national forests." Even when Dean was judged less favorably on environmental issues, the executive director of the Vermont Natural Resources Council Elizabeth Courtney recognizes that pressing economic circumstances impacted his decisions ("in the early 90s the rest of the country seemed to be pulling out of the recession and Vermont seemed to be languishing in it") and acknowledges Dean's general qualities as governor: "fresh candor and intelligence. You always know where Howard Dean stands. He is candid and honest in his communications with Vermonters, and he is appreciated for that. He's also very bright, and he has a clear sense of his direction." The San Francisco Chronicle reported that "[executive director of the Sierra Club Carl] Pope said that although the Sierra Club had some disagreements with Dean's land-use policies, Dean did 'fabulous things in Vermont.'"

++ Fiscal Conservatism: It now seems that Dean's hardline fiscal policies have paid some dividends. While virtually every state in the nation cuts funding for vital social services, Vermont ended the fiscal year with a $10.4 million General Fund surplus. For this accomplishment, Stephen Klein, chief fiscal officer for the current Vermont legislature, says that "Dean gets a large amount of credit." But Dean isn't as fiscally conservative as was suggested by Paul Wellstone's former press secretary Jim Farrell. Farrell argued in The Nation that Dean "targeted for elimination the public financing provision of the state's campaign finance law," cut education spending, and proposed "deep cuts in Medicaid." These claims are all true, but Farrell leaves out critical details. Dean, who is a strong supporter of publicly financed campaigns, used the money from the public financing fund to help balance Vermont's budget only after a federal court judge ruled that the spending limits provision in the campaign finance law was unconstitutional, meaning that the fund would sit untouched. Facing large state deficits, Dean proposed cuts in the amount of state funds to education because "dramatic increases in property values" already had produced an education fund that was "flush to overflowing with money," according to the Associated Press. The proposal to cut Medicaid was hardly serious; it was made as a threat to force Vermont's legislature to pass a 75-cent tax on tobacco products that Dean desired (the tax revenues actually went to fund Medicaid), a move supported by Vermont's PIRG and all of the state's major medical associations. Also, Dean does not support raising the retirement age to 68 or 70.

++ Human Rights: Dean not only signed the first bill in the United States recognizing civil unions for same-sex couples, but did it six months before his gubernatorial election when it was opposed by two-thirds of Vermont's population. According to the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, Dean differs from top-ranked Kucinich and Braun only on the issue of gay marriage, and is unique among top-tier Democrats in supporting federally-enforced equal rights legislation and GLBT-supportive education policies (Kerry and Gephardt only support state-based civil union legislation and both voted for "an amendment to the Improving America’s Schools Act prohibiting federal funds 'for instructional materials, instruction, counseling, or other services on school grounds, from being used for the promotion of homosexuality as a positive lifestyle alternative'").

So let's review...

1. Military Spending... Dean doesn't want to cut military spending, despite accusations that he'd leave America "defenseless". In fact, many Greenies don't like Dean because of this position.

2. Military/Foreign Policy... Dean believes in complying with treaties that the US has signed (and not pulling out of them for stupid cash cow programs), and believes in signing other treaties with Human Rights in mind.

3. Israel... Dean doesn't have a comprehensive peace plan. He thinks that the "relevant parties" should get together and the US should moderate negotiations. He supports the removal of illegal settlements as well as the end to terrorist acts.

4. Trade... Above all else, Dean believes in spreading America's labor standards as conditions for free-trade. Translation: no more exploitation of cheap labor... which would help protect manufacturing jobs from being exported.

5. Death Penalty... This is the issue where Dean is taking a lot of flak from lefties and Greenies alike. Dean is PRO-DEATH PENALTY in cases of terrorism, child murderers, and cop-killers. However, IIRC, Dean does support further study on the death penalty in terms of how many innocents are put to death and would support a moratorium in order to correct problems associated with the system.

6. Guns... Dean received an "A" from the NRA. But of course, he was governor of VERMONT. He clearly stated he believes state and local governments should make their own gun laws.

7. Marijuana... Dean doesn't believe users should be put in jail. In fact, he goes so far to say marijuana isn't a criminal issue, but rather, a public health issue. In terms of medicinal uses, Dean thinks the FDA should conduct it's own tests to determine what possible uses marijuana should have in the medical world. Dean's platform sounds like de-criminalization to me.

8. Environment... as President, Dean says he will restore Clinton era environmental policies with regards to land use and national parks. Translation: Dean won't let the logging industry write the countries' environmental regulations like Bush has. Dean isn't a corporate wh0re for big oil. He believes in increases efficiency standards for automobiles as well as increasing our energy indepence.

9. Fiscal policy... Dean is a fiscal conservative... a departure from tax and spend policies that Democrats like, and the borrow and spend policies that Republicans like. Dean is very pragmatic in terms of economic policy... he's not blinded by economic ideologies like Dubya, and believes smart economic policies that create jobs and spur the economy, rather than economy killing deficits and tax breaks to the rich.

10. Human Rights... Dean supports gay civil unions.

I like Dean primarily because he's not from Washington. He isn't stuck in the corrupt system that most Washington politicians are. Corporate America doesn't pull his strings, and neither do special interest groups with their own agendas.

I hope my post helps shed some light on Dean and what he stands for.

[Q Classic]

No.

[Imran Siddiqui]

This is kinda funny. I told Boris that Dean was more centrist than his lefty supporters think he is. Boris disagreed heavily and said he was a lefty.

I wonder which 'Dean' will come out in the end . Though he'll still lose to Kerry.

Oh, as for gay civil unions, the flip side is that Dean believes that there shouldn't be full gay marriage. Not sure if some of the gays here will like that.

[Arrian]

I have been meaning to check up on Dean...

Hmm.... combo of fiscal conservatism & social/foreign policy liberalism? Interesting.

Sounds pretty good to me.

But I have to laugh about the "not cut military spending" bit. He wants to "redirect" it to energy research, which he calls defense spending. That's a bit of a copout. I'd rather he just said "yeah, I do think the military budget is too big, and I think we ought to be spending some of that money on reducing/eliminating our dependency on oil." I happen to agree. But since when do politicians running for office (high office, anyway) tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth about their intentions?

-Arrian

[DinoDoc]

Wondering about Howard Dean?

No, not really.

[Defiant]

8. Environment... as President, Dean says he will restore Clinton era environmental policies with regards to land use and national parks. Translation: Dean won't let the logging industry write the countries' environmental regulations like Bush has. Dean isn't a corporate wh0re for big oil. He believes in increases efficiency standards for automobiles as well as increasing our energy indepence.

Did you look at all the forest fires lately in the NW and West, if you don't log they will continue. Thanks Slick Willy and Gore. Dean is just a tree hugging whore, who will let nature destroy our woodland by not maintaining our woodland.

9. Fiscal policy... Dean is a fiscal conservative... a departure from tax and spend policies that Democrats like, and the borrow and spend policies that Republicans like. Dean is very pragmatic in terms of economic policy... he's not blinded by economic ideologies like Dubya, and believes smart economic policies that create jobs and spur the economy, rather than economy killing deficits and tax breaks to the rich.

Nice, but give me the low down on how. I am a fiscally responsible so vote for me, what do you say, how will I do it, ohhhh, didn't think I would have to tell you until you elected me. But we do know he wants to repeal my tax breaks, yea I will vote for the dope.

[rev]

Those fires will continue as long as we're in drought-like conditions (which is true for Colorado and many of the other western states).

Pretending that logging is a measure to protect the environment is laughable.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Defiant
Did you look at all the forest fires lately in the NW and West, if you don't log they will continue. Thanks Slick Willy and Gore. Dean is just a tree hugging whore, who will let nature destroy our woodland by not maintaining our woodland.

That's right folks, you heard it here. Bill Clinton is responsible for forest fires. Do you have a link to the dumbs' website or do you come up with this crap on your own?

Nice, but give me the low down on how. I am a fiscally responsible so vote for me, what do you say, how will I do it, ohhhh, didn't think I would have to tell you until you elected me. But we do know he wants to repeal my tax breaks, yea I will vote for the dope.

That's right. He wants to repeal the irresponsible and obscene tax cuts that have given us the highest budget deficits OF ALL TIME.

[johncmcleod]

It's about frickin time America had a politician with some sense. Vote for Dean!

That's too bad he's for the death penalty though.

[rmsharpe]

"...as long as we see that heart tattoo with Neville Chamberlain's name on his right forearm, he's never going anywhere."

Thank goodness for Dennis Miller.

[Garth Vader]

Originally posted by Sava
That's right. He wants to repeal the irresponsible and obscene tax cuts that have given us the highest budget deficits OF ALL TIME.

I don't understand why so many people are so mad at Davis in California for racking up the deficit, but not mad at Bush

[MrFun]

Sava, this is probably the best informational thread you have ever created.

Thanks for the info -- it has reinforced my support for Howard Dean.

[Arrian]

Probably because Bush has cut taxes, and I assume California is raising (or thinking about raising) them, to deal with its shortfall. But I'm honestly not sure, since I live in CT and pay very little attention to the internal politics of CA.

See, the federal gummint cuts taxes, and then cuts the funds it sends to the states, which forces the states to either 1) cut spending; 2) raise taxes; or 3) a bit 'o both.

Oh, and the federal gummint apparently feels it can just ignore pesky things like deficits, and piles of debt.

Why? "Cause we got the bombs, okay?" - Dennis Leary.

-Arrian

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Defiant
Did you look at all the forest fires lately in the NW and West, if you don't log they will continue. Thanks Slick Willy and Gore. Dean is just a tree hugging whore, who will let nature destroy our woodland by not maintaining our woodland.

Yeppers. Zacktly. There wasn't no woodlands before we started clearcutting, because nature kept destroying 'em.

Never mind that forest fires are an essential feature of forest lifecycles and management practice.

[MichaeltheGreat]

I love number 1:

I'm not gonna cut defense spending. I'm just gonna buy Russkie nuclear **** they don't know how to store safely, and spend defense money on global love-ins so we can all get in touch with our inner child.

[Arrian]

Like I said, I found #1 amusing too (though I hit on a different "rerouting" of defense spending).

Damn, man, just admit you intend to cut funding to the military!

-Arrian

[Adam Smith]

Originally posted by Sava
9. Fiscal policy... Dean is a fiscal conservative... a departure from tax and spend policies that Democrats like, and the borrow and spend policies that Republicans like. Dean is very pragmatic in terms of economic policy... he's not blinded by economic ideologies like Dubya, and believes smart economic policies that create jobs and spur the economy, rather than economy killing deficits and tax breaks to the rich.

This Letter to the Editor in this morning's WASHINGTON POST has a somewhat different perspective on Dean's fiscal policy.

Howard Dean Is No Fiscal Conservative
Tuesday, August 12, 2003; Page A12
An Aug. 3 front-page story regarding Howard Dean's fiscal record during his tenure as governor of Vermont called Mr. Dean a "fiscal conservative."
According to Americans for Tax Reform's Cost of Government Day report, the average Vermonter worked 60 days to pay for Vermont spending in 1992. By 2001, the average resident needed to work an additional two weeks -- 75 days -- because state spending rose so much faster than family income.
State employment soared under Mr. Dean as well. From 1997 to 2002, Vermont's workforce grew from 7,196 (6,939 employees plus 257 vacancies) to 8,239 (7,791 employees plus 448 vacancies). That's a 14.5 percent increase in just the last half of the Dean administration.
Being a fiscal conservative means more than balancing a budget or allowing a scheduled tax sunset to proceed. Being a fiscal conservative means resisting the growth of government and cutting taxes.
Those looking for a fiscally conservative Democrat for president must look beyond the Dean campaign.
GROVER G. NORQUIST
President
Americans for Tax Reform
Washington
© 2003 The Washington Post Company

This is one life-long Republican who is pissed off enough about Bush that I won't be voting for him in 2004. But most of the Democratic field has a ways to go before they will earn my vote.

[Arrian]

Being a fiscal conservative means more than balancing a budget or allowing a scheduled tax sunset to proceed. Being a fiscal conservative means resisting the growth of government and cutting taxes.

I'd agree that being fiscally conservative means resisting the growth of government, but I do not necessarily think it means cutting taxes (always). To me, the meaning of "fiscal conservative" is a leader who seeks to keep us living within our means. That's nebulous, to be sure, but it's the best I can do.

-Arrian

[Imran Siddiqui]

I'm still trying to figure out who the 'real' Dean is. Is it the moderate the Sava is putting up and most of Vermont knows, or is it the firebreathing liberal that Boris loves and his supporters are backing.

I guess it'll be fun to find out, if we ever do find out .

[Defiant]

"That's right folks, you heard it here. Bill Clinton is responsible for forest fires. Do you have a link to the dumbs' website or do you come up with this crap on your own?"

It was on CNN last night, your station, they were covering Bush in his trip out West to view the damage done and promoting his bill for the forests. Then they went to the local forest ranger who opposes Bush's bill and says it goes too far for the logging industry but he mention "responsible logging" helps to reduce massive forest fires. Drought as a catalyst increases the chance of forest fires, but poorly managed forests make it too easy for forest fires to start, whether by accident or intentional. Odds go up.

Geeee Mtg, thought you were smarter than that.


"That's right. He wants to repeal the irresponsible and obscene tax cuts that have given us the highest budget deficits OF ALL TIME."

Sava, could it be again, that 9/11 caused our huge deficit and the March 2001 collapse of the stock market. You remember Bush took office in January of 2001 and the market collapsed in March, so that was his fault, I'm sure you remember that he did that in just two months, that has to be some kind of record.
And once again, you fail to answer the question, what is Dean's plan for bringing new jobs??????

[Sava]

It was on CNN last night, your station, they were covering Bush in his trip out West to view the damage done and promoting his bill for the forests. Then they went to the local forest ranger who opposes Bush's bill and says it goes too far for the logging industry but he mention "responsible logging" helps to reduce massive forest fires. Drought as a catalyst increases the chance of forest fires, but poorly managed forests make it too easy for forest fires to start, whether by accident or intentional. Odds go up.

CNN is my station? If Bush's "responsible logging" policies are so environmentally friendly, how come every environmental group in the country thinks they are stupid. Oh yeah, let's trust logging companies. Their first concern is the environment. Do you believe this crap?

Sava, could it be again, that 9/11 caused our huge deficit and the March 2001 collapse of the stock market. You remember Bush took office in January of 2001 and the market collapsed in March, so that was his fault, I'm sure you remember that he did that in just two months, that has to be some kind of record.
And once again, you fail to answer the question, what is Dean's plan for bringing new jobs??????

9-11 and the stock market... two things that have little to do with the monumental deficit... Bush's tax cuts are the primary factor contributing to our RECORD DEFICITS. Everyone INFORMED and not subject to mindless propaganda knows this. I didn't answer any question because you didn't ask one. Go to Dean's website to look over his plans. I can't speak for him nor do I work for his campaign. I'm only trying to give voters more information.

Mr Fun thank you for the compliment.

[The Templar]

Originally posted by rmsharpe
"...as long as we see that heart tattoo with Neville Chamberlain's name on his right forearm, he's never going anywhere."

Thank goodness for Dennis Miller.

I'm of the opinion that Dennis Miller has been suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (i.e. "shellshock") since 9/11. That guy needs therapy fast!

But thank God for Bill Maher!

[Harry Seldon]

Give me Dean and McCain on the same ticket and by god we'll rule the universe!

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Defiant
And once again, you fail to answer the question, what is Dean's plan for bringing new jobs??????

Tying labor standards to trade agreements will increase labor costs overseas. This will disincentivize "outshoring" of white collar and manufacturing jobs. Increased consumer confidence (via the security of jobs) will spur demand, creating growth. And with outshoring disincentivized, the growth will create jobs here.

[mrmitchell]

And once again, you fail to answer the question, what is Dean's plan for bringing new jobs??????

Whatever it is, it's gotta be better than Bush's plan (obviously).

Geeee Mtg, thought you were smarter than that.

MtG will pull out some old legal code and write a novel on forest management in 10...9...8...

Seriously, though, thinking of logging as an answer to forest fires is ridiculous.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Harry Seldon
Give me Dean and McCain on the same ticket and by god we'll rule the universe!

nah, neither has the potential to carry the South... when the religious right dropped support for McCain, he sank like a rock in the Republican primaries in 2000. A guy like General Wesley Clark might be a better candidate for VP on a Dean ticket. But that's a long ways away. California will make a decision about their governor before Dean starts thinking about VP's.

[Dis]

nah, I'll vote green party

[Sava]

MtG will pull out some old legal code and write a novel on forest management in 10...9...8...

Seriously, though, thinking of logging as an answer to forest fires is ridiculous.

Yeah, MtG is like Albert fricking Einstein... his informed opinions carry more weight than Defiant's. or my own for that matter.

[Defiant]

"9-11 and the stock market... two things that have little to do with the monumental deficit... Bush's tax cuts are the primary factor contributing to our RECORD DEFICITS. Everyone INFORMED and not subject to mindless propaganda knows this. I didn't answer any question because you didn't ask one. Go to Dean's website to look over his plans. I can't speak for him nor do I work for his campaign. I'm only trying to give voters more information."

Please Sava, show me the numbers, I am waiting.

http://money.cnn.com/2003/08/12/news...reut/index.htm

Read this.

[Defiant]

Hell, anybody's carry more than yours, Sava.