Info: Diplomats and Spies

[SlowThinker]

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Diplomats and spies

[SlowThinker]

Post2

There are old forgotten (but very helpful) threads in Apolyton and it is very tedious if you try to extract a concrete information (I am experienced well with dips/spies).
I think a big part of Apolyton could be managed the way I suggest hereafter and then there wouldn't be so large redundancy of information. A few (10, 20) threads of similar fashion would span all questions (answered or unanswered) about Civ2 facts. To arrange strategies would be harder, I think they should be discussed ordinarily.

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This thread is a try to concentrate all wisdom about diplomats and spies. I included rules, facts and short tips only. I don't intend to collect strategies here.
If this try will be succesfull, other people could manage further scopes of Civ similar way.

There is my idea how to manage this thread:

All wisdom will be concentraced to the main (first) post.

You will
post any suggestions :

to add new wisdom (will be marked green), to mark/unmark insecure or unsettled wisdom (will be marked red), to put new questions that should be answered (will be marked blue), remarks to mistakes, opacity and my weak english

and discuss them here.

I will
integrate your suggestions into the main post.

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Please, clear your post if all its problems are definitively solved and integrated to the first post (you must to let at least one letter there.) I hope Ming will remove cleared posts from time to time. Keep world clean!
Help me: if you think I forgot to integrate one of your ideas then edit your post, delete ideas I included yet and write LOOK! in the beginning of post.
If MY post is assigned to you (I named you in the beginning), and you have read it and you think it may be cleared, let me know (by a new short post). I will clear post soon if there is no useful information for others.
I suggest to mark your posts by numbers (Post 5, Post 6...) for easier reference.
Previously, I thought I can remove posts in this thread. It is false: only Ming may delete posts.

Html is off in Civ2-strategy forum: That is the reason why I chose this forum.

[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited January 31, 2001).]

[SlowThinker]

Post 3
List of my sources
Let me know if you know other interesting source of information related to dips/spies.

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Civ2-Strategy: Poisoning and sabotaging
Civ2-Strategy: In response to the sabotage thing
Civ2-Strategy Bribing non-barb units
Scrolls of Ancient Wisdom (Winkler)
Civ2-Strategy To bribe or not to bribe
Archive Bribing cities - Apolyton Civilization Site Forums
Archive Can diplos survive attacks - Apolyton Civilization Site Forums
Archive Expelling diplos - Apolyton Civilization Site Forums
Archive Tips On Diplomacy - Apolyton Civilization Site Forums
Archive Finally a way to protect cities from bribing!
Archive Veteran diplomats - Apolyton Civilization Site Forums
Archive War in a diplo game... Is it worth it - Apolyton Civilization Site Forums
Archive bribe-proofing my cities - Apolyton Civilization Site Forums
Civ2-Strategy: Best use for a Diplomat-Spy
Civ2-Strategy: Early Diplomatic Warfare
Civ2-Strategy: city bribe question
Civ2-Strategy: Partisans
Civ2-Strategy: Poisoning (w-Spy)
Civ2-Strategy: Sabotaging SDI Defenses
Civ2-Strategy: Spies and City Walls
Civ2-Strategy: Spy questions
Civ2-Strategy: Spy-Dip question
Civ2-Strategy: Stealing techs
Civ2-Strategy: Stopping the cheapness! Inciting revolts
Civ2-Strategy: The AI can bribe a Democracy!
Civ2-Strategy: Using Diplomats Effectively
Civ2-Strategy: Vet Spys and Stealing Techs
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited February 01, 2001).]

[SlowThinker]

Post 4
Recent important updates

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02/01/01
7.4 moved to 2.13-14
01/30/01
I removed old "new wisdom" highlights (green).
4.5-4.7 renumbered to 4.10-4.12
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited April 15, 2001).]

[SlowThinker]

Post 5
Keywords

level 1	{spy}
level 2	{bribing cities}{bribing units} {expel} {sabotage unit}{establish embassy}{investigate city}{steal technology}{industrial sabotage}{poison water supply}

See "The Great Library: a hierarchical structure" thread if you want to know more about keywords.

[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited April 16, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited May 19, 2001).]

[debeest]

POST 6

Note: There's no conflict between your summary and the Scrolls of Wisdom with regard to the veteran spy factor.


[This message has been edited by debeest (edited February 21, 2001).]

[Maelhavok]

REMOVED
[This message has been edited by Maelhavok (edited May 16, 2001).]

[SlowThinker]

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[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited May 19, 2001).]

[SlowThinker]

Post 10
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[SlowThinker]

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[La Fayette]

Post 19

3.1 The multipliers for spy and vet spy don't apply to G. They apply to D (1,2*D for spy and 1,5*D for vet spy).
3.13 With no capital, I have several examples of Dmax different from 16 (I let you know if I find out why).
4.51 I have many examples of barb legion = 124g
12.11 Probability that vet spy+"gi

[La Fayette]

Post 20
12.31 Attack "use her judgment" (or attack with a dip)
Any attack is a success.
The only difference between dips, spies and vet spies is the nummber of losses: 100% with dips, 50% with spies and 25% with vet spies.
They all use their judgment the same way: almost in accordance with the list of improvements in the city screen (with a slight random factor). This means that city walls are generally the last improvement attacked.
Hence, if there are n improvements inside the city, it is wise to attack with n+1 dips or spies to make sure that the walls go down.

12.32 Attack "give primary target"
a) Basic example: attack of city walls in a capital city by vet spies.
Any attack is independent from the previous one (like "heads and tails"). Probability of success p1=0,5.
If the attack was successful, your vet spy might be captured afterwards. Probability of escaping p2=0,5.
b) All other examples derive from that one (but the probabilities differ). Testing with larger samples would be necessary to make sure of the exact values.
c) Meanwhile, I suppose that:
the probability of escaping after successful attack is close to
p2=0,5 for vet spies
p2=0,25 for non vet spies;
the probability of success is close to
p1=0,5 for vet spies attacking walls in a capital city;
the probability of success is higher when attacking improvements other than walls, and non capital cities;
the probability of success is much lower when attacking with non vet spies.
d)Hence it is advisable to attack with numerous vet spies using this "give primary target" method.
e)With non vet spies, it is generally advisable to choose the "use her judgment" method (especially if there are few improvements inside the city).

------------------
aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

[SlowThinker]

Post 21
La Fayette,
3.1 I wanted to write GR (gold required to bribe), not G (gold of civ that is bribed). Thank you, it was a big mistake.
3.13 Could you e-mail me your saved game?
12.11 not finished yet?

I removed old "new wisdom" highlights (green).
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited January 30, 2001).]

[SlowThinker]

Post 22
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[SlowThinker]

Post 23
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[SlowThinker]

Post 24
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[William Keenan]

Awesome! That's it. I just verified it. If you are under communism the max distance is 10.

[William Keenan]

I have only tested and verified the communism distance 10 factor with units, not cities. I will verify it for cities this weekend.

I suggest two changes to the formula 4.1:[*]The cost to bribe units with a role=5 (settlers) is double that of other units. [*]DF = 3*12.5/(D+2) should be simplified to DF = 37.5/(D+2)


SlowThinker, ask MarkG to fix you login.

[Slow Thinker]

Post 27
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[Slow Thinker]

Post 28
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[Scouse Gits]

Have put the link for this thread in the Great Library.
-----------
SG(2)

[William Keenan]

Post 30

I made an interesting discovery. Diplomats can subvert a city if there are no units in it.

I also tested the previous owner thing. The result was that the civiliztion to own the city before its current owner gets half price. If you founded it and it has changed hands several times, your out of luck - no discount.

[This message has been edited by William Keenan (edited March 08, 2001).]

[La Fayette]

Post 31
My post 19 was shortened under transmission. No matter: just forget the last sentence (12.11). The first 3 statements (3.1, 3.13, 4.51) remain true IMO (unfortunately I cannot send any save game since I play at home and post at my office with no link in between).
Post 20 is complete, I think. In fact, it is my answer to point 12.3.
Let me know if there is anything else I could or should do.

[Slow Thinker]

Post 32

La Fayette,
3.1 Did you read Post 21?? IMHO it clarifies all.

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette Let me know if there is anything else I could or should do.

Apologize for disbelieving my formula!

3.13

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette (unfortunately I cannot send any save game since I play at home and post at my office with no link in between).

La Fayette, there were "floppy disks" in my young years. Do you remember?

4.51 I suppose William Keenan and me solved the problem. See Post 24 and the appropriate part of Post 1.
Edit: sorry, I deleted the Post 24. See post 1.

Yes, post 20 is complete, I suppose it was my mistake, I wanted to point to the post 19. I didn't include it because I think there still remains some error in our tests: results are very strange.

William Keenan,
I tested subverting cities by diplomats. It worked not only for empty cities! It seems that 3.5 is valid for both spy AND diplomat...
(3.5 Spy may bribe a city two ways: "incite revolt" or "subvert city". It is possible to subvert city only if you have cease fire, peace or you are allied.)
[This message has been edited by Slow Thinker (edited April 14, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Slow Thinker (edited April 14, 2001).]

[William Keenan]

POST 33

quote: Originally posted by Slow Thinker on 03-20-2001 08:14 PM Winkler claims veteran status of both spy and diplomat affects bribing cost. I am prepared to remove a red note about Winkler at 3.1 ("5/6 or 2/3 if a spy or veteran spy is bribing") if anybody will confirm I am right and only spy is affected by vet status when bribing cities.

I have confirmed it. Winkler was wrong.

quote: I proved the previous owner thing. I agree. Is this expressed correctly (you know, my english...)? if dip/spy's civ was the last owner of the city before*the curent owner. (If the civ founded it and it has changed hands several times, then no discount applies.)

I would just say: 1/2 if bribing civ was the previous owner.

quote: Originally posted by William Keenan I have only tested and verified the communism distance 10 factor with units, not cities. I will verify it for cities this weekend.

Did you prove it?[/quote]

My testing created more questions then answers. According to my tests Communism made no difference in the bribe price of any city, barbarian or otherwise.

[Slow Thinker]

Post 34
William,

quote: Originally posted by William Keenan on 03-21-2001 11:04 PM My testing created more questions then answers. According to my tests Communism made no difference in the bribe price of any city, barbarian or otherwise.

It works IMO...Did you take into consideration that government of the civ whose city is bribed must be under communism?
Edited: Do you want to exchange .sav files?

quote: Originally posted by William Keenan I would just say: 1/2 if bribing civ was the previous owner.

Is "previous" enough? Cannot "previous" be understood as "previous or previous of previous"?
[This message has been edited by Slow Thinker (edited March 24, 2001).]

[SlowThinker]

bump.

[William Keenan]

quote: It works IMO...Did you take into consideration that government of the civ whose city is bribed must be under communism? Did you prove it?

You are right. The Barbarians are under communism their palace distance becomes 10, just like every other civ. I proved it.

quote: Is "previous" enough? Cannot "previous" be understood as "previous or previous of previous"?

1/2 if bribing civ was the last owner of the city prior to its current owner.

[SlowThinker]

Post 36
William,
thank you.

What do you think about 3.5 (see Post 32)? I think that
there is no difference between dip
and
spy and a presence of a unit in the city has no effect.

[MattHiggs]

What the buggary is this all about