Let's have fun!

Master Zen · August 14, 2003, 00:13

Ok, since the other thread has turned into a SPDG nostalgia /PBEM setup thread, I just wanted to share some thoughts on the original intent of Nathan's thread in a more on-topic way.

First of all, despite the fact that for the last two weeks I've been rather unattached to the game for RL reasons I can honestly say I've had fun since the first moment I joined the PTWDG. It is intense. It is passionate. It is not for the faint of heart.

I understand the reasons why some people have lost the fun part out of this game due to the aggresive nature of this competition, and the feeling that people have been insulted directly or indirectly. Whether that has been done is not the topic of this discussion, but more than one person share this sentiment, while many people simply view the trash-talking as a natural part of any competition and is to be taken lightly.

Yesterday night, me and Arnelos were talking about the demogames with AdrianHon, it was more of an interview really, but certain things come to mind that are relevant in this case.

First of all, we must understand the origin of the PTWDG and thes takes that are involved, and mind you, they are HUGE. Bigger than anyone will likely admit in public. The first SPDG was a team affair, everyone united for a common end despite the fact that the means to achieve that end varied and was the nature of the political parties. I wasn't in that game, but from what I've been told, it was ALL about the politics, yet that same political "dis-unity" created a common bond in the sense that people were nevertheless in the same boat together and like it or not, were in with each other to the end.

The PTWDG changed all that. For the first time it was not just "who had the better idea" but rather "who are the best civ players". No way to say the hawks could have done it better, or the DIA could like in the SPDG. Here the winner will be decided by who played the best game of civ, plain and simple.

Now many people in the PTWDG were not involved in the SPDG while the old SPDG crowd spread out among the various teams, more suited to their political inclinations of that first game. The Hawks went to GoW, and the DIA to RP and Lego for example. But new crowds got involved also. You had the strat forum regulars forming what many view as the Real Madrid of civ teams, Gathering Storm. Then you have the germans at ND, and the more aloof but no-less dedicated Voxians.

And you still don't think the stakes are huge?

It's all-or-nothing. There will be one winner. One group of select people who can lay claim to have been the winner of the first competitive democracy game in the world's biggest civ site. So much for being "just" a game. In this sense, the stakes may even be higher than the ISDG. Do we cross paths with CGNers, or GCAers or Firaxians every day? Nope. But we see each other here, the competeitive spirit is always with us, be it PBEM, MP, or just plain who kicks bigger ass in SP, and especially since many of the PTWDG teams have done much better than some of the ISDG teams from what I've seen. If the level of competition is more fierce, the satisfaction of winning, is invariably greater.

We all have a little bit to prove here. If GoW wins we can claim that realpolitiking and opportunism won the day. If GS wins, they will be proud that all that time in the strat forum paid off and prove that they're not just good at kicking the AI's butt. If ND wins, well, imagine a rival site beating out the best Apolyton has to offer! You get the picture.

So, for the sake of humility and sportsmanship, most people will say in public that this is just a game played for fun. But honestly I doubt any of them believe it, and if it were so, all this passion over other team's coments or actions would not be very important to some. Whether you are hyped, insulted, or just got caught rolling your ass off on the floor laughing, you can't deny that this game has grown on you and that for good or bad, feel a passion for it, and an overwhelming desire to win. That is the spirit of competitiveness, which though manifested differently by each person, is with us all.

So, all I can say is, get real, this is more than a game, it's Civ for christ's sake! It's our favorite game for some of us, played in our favorite community! It gets serious, it gets nasty, it gets heated, it gets comical, it gets to be everything at some moment. So enjoy it, have fun, be passionate, and most of all:

PLAY TO WIN

and don't be surprised if the others do too by all means necessary.

(and give yourself extra credit for having read this whole damn rant

)

Master Zen · August 14, 2003, 00:24

Some things I forgot to mention, also chatting with certain people we noticed that the biggest resentments or grudges were between people who were either not in the first SPDG or in the ISDG.

Being a member of the ISDG and the PTWDG I can say that it is very funny yet refreshing to know that your hated rivals in the PTWDG suddenly become your teammates in the ISDG. I assume that the people close to the original SPDG have the same feeling. Like I have said many times, many of the people in GoW's #1 enemy, RP, are actually some of my best friends from the ISDG, like Togas, BF, WB, Arnelos, E_T, WIA, NW, etc etc etc. For those who are only in the PTWDG it would be interesting to see how their perceptions of others change once you actually get to work with those you think are your detested enemies. It's a whole new ballgame and I for one am glad I joined the ISDG. It's a wonderful show of unity how all grudges and issues from the PTWDG are evaporated the instant we step into the forum or the chat and work together for a common goal, which for all those unbelievers, proves that the PTWDG rivalries are truly only skin-deep.

Jon Shafer · August 14, 2003, 00:27

Plus winning the ISDG will be enjoyable.

Oh, and I want my extra credit.

Master Zen · August 14, 2003, 00:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Trip

Oh, and I want my extra credit.

/me puts a shiny star sticker on Trip's homework

Octavian X · August 14, 2003, 01:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Trip
Plus winning the ISDG will be enjoyable.

I'm afraid you're mistaken. CFC isn't down for the count yet, and we don't plan on losing anytime soon.

Jon Shafer · August 14, 2003, 01:23

ISDG trash talk!!!

Quote:

Originally posted by Octavian X
I'm afraid you're mistaken. CFC isn't down for the count yet, and we don't plan on losing anytime soon.

They never do... plan on it, that is.

Though history has shown that that goes without saying.

BigFree · August 14, 2003, 01:48

We didn't know CFC was down at all in the ISDG.

Master Zen · August 14, 2003, 02:15

stop thread-jacking my thread!!!

Darekill · August 14, 2003, 03:00

Hmmm....
It's just a game.
You can not consider to find out who's the best civing team from the results of one game.
Just consider if Legoland would have played that well were they in the position of ND. How would have GS played if they were in the position of RP? How would have ND developed had we been in place of GS? What would have happened to Lux if they would have started on Legos?

I'm not telling that anyone would have played out their chances better or worse then they did. I just think you can not realy claim to be the best civing team just because you may be the winner of this.

If I got it right you wanted to find out how some Roles could be played out in this scenario.
The Builders.
The Warmongers.
The Roleplayers.
and so on.

Well it was suposed to be fun and competitive. Now the fun part is somehow shrinking....

Master Zen · August 14, 2003, 03:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Darekill

I'm not telling that anyone would have played out their chances better or worse then they did. I just think you can not realy claim to be the best civing team just because you may be the winner of this.

Obviously luck has a lot to do in civ, just like it does in RL. But I doubt the winning team will win by luck alone without displaying some considerable display of skill.

vulture · August 14, 2003, 05:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Darekill
Hmmm....
It's just a game.
You can not consider to find out who's the best civing team from the results of one game.
Just consider if Legoland would have played that well were they in the position of ND. How would have GS played if they were in the position of RP? How would have ND developed had we been in place of GS? What would have happened to Lux if they would have started on Legos?

The obvious solution to this is to replay the game with all possible permutations of teams and starting positions. With 7 teams (and therefore 7 starting positions) that's only 5,040 games to determine which team is best in all circumstances. That should be doable once we all have lifespans of about 15,000 years...

Beta · August 14, 2003, 07:38

MZ - great post. Very thought-provoking.

I still lean to this being more of a game. But you have hit upon some of the reasons things do get as heated as they do.

And - if GS is Real Madrid, that makes Vox something along the lines of Crystal Palace (English soccer - tirer 2 or 3 team).

Hey - but just wait!

OPD · August 14, 2003, 07:44

Interesting stuff Zen

Quote:

Originally posted by Master Zen
But new crowds got involved also. You had the strat forum regulars forming what many view as the Real Madrid of civ teams, Gathering Storm.

If GS are the Real Madrid then I'm Steve Mcmanaman.

vulture · August 14, 2003, 09:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Beta
MZ - great post. Very thought-provoking.

I still lean to this being more of a game. But you have hit upon some of the reasons things do get as heated as they do.

And - if GS is Real Madrid, that makes Vox something along the lines of Crystal Palace (English soccer - tirer 2 or 3 team).

Hey - but just wait!

I'm sure you meant to say Accrington Stanley rather than Palace

UnOrthOdOx · August 14, 2003, 09:59

Ah...Real Madrid = Soccer.

No wonder I was lost...

No offense Soccer/football fans, it's one of those sports that, for me, is fun to play (I played fullback in highschool) but not so fun to watch on the TV. Much like Baseball and Basketball.

ZargonX · August 14, 2003, 11:06

Quote:

Ah...Real Madrid = Soccer.

Tut tut, UnO; Real Madrid = football. You have to remember you're speaking to Europeans with their crazy screwed up terms for things

Arrian · August 14, 2003, 11:07

Coventry City! Then Gordon Strachan could be your manager (or has he moved on? My knowledge of the Premiership is a couple of years out of date).

Quote:

You had the strat forum regulars forming what many view as the Real Madrid of civ teams, Gathering Storm

This is a perception I deeply regret not having fought from the beginning. It has, IMO, caused us no end of trouble.

-Arrian

GhengisFarb™ · August 14, 2003, 11:22

Quote:

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
No offense Soccer/football fans, it's one of those sports that, for me, is fun to play (I played fullback in highschool) but not so fun to watch on the TV. Much like Baseball and Basketball.

Yes, yes. For me the only sports worth watching are [b]true/b] football games (American football) and hockey. Thank heavens College Football is right around the corner!

Hockey and Football best represent the medieval combat, especially football, their like two forces of knights dismounted in full armor squaring off against one another....................

Soccer, on the other hand, is like watching a bunch of neighbor brats running around on the lawn and through the sprinkler......

(Sorry, that last statement may not make sense to some, do they have running water in Europe?)

UnOrthOdOx · August 14, 2003, 11:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian

This is a perception I deeply regret not having fought from the beginning. It has, IMO, caused us no end of trouble.

-Arrian

Look back, even I tried to fight it. It was to no avail, though. I know that many felt your team was being elitist in it's choosing of members and specifically recruiting strat forum and AU members through private means, not simple posting in here, in order to build an elitist team.

Yes, I could safely say it HAS caused you a good deal of trouble. There were those who never saw you in that light, but we were, I fear, a minority.

UnOrthOdOx · August 14, 2003, 11:24

Quote:

Originally posted by GhengisFarb

Yes, yes. For me the only sports worth watching are true football games (American football) and hockey. Thank heavens College Football is right around the corner!

Hockey and Football best represent the medieval combat, especially football, their like two forces of knights dismounted in full armor squaring off against one another....................

Yep!

Though I sure wish my Raiders would return to their roots of Smash Mouth Football. Im getting sick of this passing every down BS.

Arrian · August 14, 2003, 11:42

True, UnO. And as such, I doubt it was possible to come in "under the radar" so to speak.

Though if it had not been for the PM I got, I never would have even ventured to this forum and joined up. So I'm glad I was "recruited."

-Arrian

Jon Shafer · August 14, 2003, 11:52

This thread hates to be on-topic.

UnOrthOdOx · August 14, 2003, 11:52

My point exactly.

I didn't care if you guys were trying to make an 'elite' team. While at the time you were all very skilled Civ players. This is Multi Player. Your skill in SP, while greater than my own at the time, posed no threat at all in Multi-player that I could see. It is an entirely different game, and we were all starting anew with it.

I pointed it out at the time. Any recruiting for THIS game only had the possibility of gaining your guys' activity for future games.

Besides, there was a certain anticipation of wanting to face off against 'the best' as well. At least to me. I respected the team and the players, but fealt no fear in facing off against them, nor did I label them 'the team to beat' as I get the impression some did.

If anything, I would say GS has played much as I predicted at the beginning. I did a bit of a psychological workup of all the teams, and with the exception of a few unforeseen personality disputes between some members, and the inability to predict starting locations, it has gone pretty much as I expected so far.

FrustratedPoet · August 14, 2003, 15:03

Quote:

Coventry City! Then Gordon Strachan could be your manager (or has he moved on? My knowledge of the Premiership is a couple of years out of date).

Indeed you are 2 seasons out of date.

Strachan is the manager of Southampton now and has been doing a very fine job.

Arrian · August 14, 2003, 15:53

Doesn't Southampton kinda suck too? (Coventry was just good enough to stave off relegation, and Southampton struck me as a similiar sort of team).

*smacks self* BAD!

Oh, um, Uno, good post. I agree (SP skill and MP skill may overlap in a few areas, such as micromanagement, but being good at SP does not in any way guarantee MP success).

-Arrian

FrustratedPoet · August 14, 2003, 17:13

They were 8th in the league last year and FA Cup finalists. Much better than they were a few years ago, hence my saying that he's done a very fine job as manager.

[/threadjack]

Master Zen · August 14, 2003, 19:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
This is a perception I deeply regret not having fought from the beginning. It has, IMO, caused us no end of trouble.

-Arrian

I think you guys should be proud. Whatever our feelings to GS as the in-game team personality, I can only say most people have the deepest respect to GS as players.

OPD · August 14, 2003, 20:17

Quote:

Originally posted by FrustratedPoet
They were 8th in the league last year and FA Cup finalists.
[/threadjack]

yeah but I can't see them doing well again, just like Ipswich and Leicester they'll fade away as they don't have the quality or commerce to stay where they are.

My prediction is they'll be relegated this year along with Portsmouth and dare I say it Chelsea

or at least not do very well

[on topic] errrr.... team MAST are like Brazil
[/on topic]