Prehistoric Techs

Captain Crunch · August 17, 2003, 06:01

Some early techs should (IMHO) be available to everyone at game start. These include pottery, and polytheism. Polytheistic religions existed long before 4000 BC when the game starts, and pottery too existed long before. I can't think of a single civilization in the game that shouldn't have these techs in 4000 BC. Can you?

Turk Man · August 17, 2003, 12:45

maybe

vmxa1 · August 17, 2003, 13:18

Yes many of them were not available to some groups in the 20th century. People in New Guinea, Amazon and a few others.

bobbo008 · August 17, 2003, 14:30

maybe "pottery" should be replaced by "crack pipe making" in the US...

Captain Crunch · August 17, 2003, 14:56

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
Yes many of them were not available to some groups in the 20th century. People in New Guinea, Amazon and a few others.

Dude, I'm talking about civilizations. Those people were living in a pre-civilized state, so they don't count as civilizations. Also, what really matters is the civs in the game anyway, and I think all of them had these techs by gamestart.

skuzzy · August 17, 2003, 16:51

it might be true that some civilizations had these techs before their era began but you can't go and specialize every civilization and keep the game fair. It's hardly possible. So even though it's a fabrication of real Civs for the game's sake it is required. So I don't see why you have to be so adament about fixing it. If you enjoy the game it shouldn't be a problem.

statusperfect · August 18, 2003, 04:49

Quote:

Originally posted by bobbo008
maybe "pottery" should be replaced by "crack pipe making" in the US...

Lord_Davinator · August 18, 2003, 05:41

I think they should have hemp and tobacco smoking as a tech... hehe... tobacco resourses...

MrFun · August 19, 2003, 12:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Captain Crunch
Some early techs should (IMHO) be available to everyone at game start. These include pottery, and polytheism. Polytheistic religions existed long before 4000 BC when the game starts, and pottery too existed long before. I can't think of a single civilization in the game that shouldn't have these techs in 4000 BC. Can you?

So stop complaining, and change them for yourself.

Lord_Davinator · August 19, 2003, 13:21

Mr Fun... you are just toooo mean... let the man express his opinion and if you think it can be changed at least tell him how... sigh.... the anger in this forum... its not like they're after your cities...

Kuciwalker · August 19, 2003, 13:44

If everyone starts with them, what's the point of them being there?

Vince278 · August 20, 2003, 00:49

Quote:

Originally posted by bobbo008
maybe "pottery" should be replaced by "crack pipe making" in the US...

That's a Modern Era tech.

Captain Crunch · August 20, 2003, 10:36

Quote:

Originally posted by skywalker
If everyone starts with them, what's the point of them being there?

Honestly, I don't think they should be there as they are so old discoveries. I mean, polytheism is at least 40,000 years old, and perhaps much older. I forgot to mention Ceremonial Burial, which is the worst tech in Civ3. We know that even Neanderthals practiced ceremonial burial, so I mean, come on.... everyone should know this.

vmxa1 · August 20, 2003, 13:32

The game is not a real depiction of world history. It is not a simulator. It choose these conventions for play balance and fun. Weither that was sucessful or not is up to one taste. Maybe they need a disclosure that says any similarities to reality are purely a coincident.

Odin · August 20, 2003, 16:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Captain Crunch

Honestly, I don't think they should be there as they are so old discoveries. I mean, polytheism is at least 40,000 years old, and perhaps much older. I forgot to mention Ceremonial Burial, which is the worst tech in Civ3. We know that even Neanderthals practiced ceremonial burial, so I mean, come on.... everyone should know this.

I pesonally Think Civ should start with the invention of agriculture, not woth the start of the bronze age.

Vince278 · August 21, 2003, 00:00

I don't mind when it begins but I do dislike when it ends. At least CtP2 goes further into the future.

Kuciwalker · August 21, 2003, 08:00

NO!!!!!

Futuristic techs suck!

They were half the reason CtPII was so inane.

Gufnork · August 21, 2003, 09:57

The oldest plytheistic religion is the sumerian religion, which I believe is between 5-10,000 years old. So you're a bit off with your 40,000 number. That would still place it before the start of Civ 3, however. But if you want to see it realistically, I don't think hitting the modern age at 1500 AD is very correct either, which isn't a rare occurance. Civ isn't designed to follow our worlds timeline exactly. It's in the correct age, settle with that. Or modify the game to suit your tastes. I believe it is possible to decide exactly which order techs are researched, but I don't see the fun in it.

eris · August 21, 2003, 11:29

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
The game is not a real depiction of world history. It is not a simulator. It choose these conventions for play balance and fun. Weither that was sucessful or not is up to one taste. Maybe they need a disclosure that says any similarities to reality are purely a coincident.

I have to emphasize this point. This is not a simulator program. It is a game of chess with many many pieces and extremely complex rules, which, with a little imagination on behalf of the player, gives the "feel" of guiding a civilization throughout the years. Even if there is not a disclaimer on the box, we should all keep that disclaimer in the back of our heads.

However, some of the points of forums like this are to allow people to discuss how they would have done things different, how they would want things different going forward, and how they can use the editor to change things now. It's great fun, as long as people keep it as "This is what I would do..." instead of "It's broken because it doesn't do what I would do..."

I love the program as it is. I also love watching people second guessing the programmers. If that seems contradictory then maybe that is what it is. However, being contradictory is not a problem for me. I just want to have fun. (Right now, that is at the expense of some Koreans sitting on top of what should be MY iron and incense, although they seem to be strongly objecting to my city ownership readjustment pogrom.)

GhengisFarb™ · August 21, 2003, 11:37

Rename "Pottery" to "Advanced Pottery" and your problem is solved.

Gufnork · August 22, 2003, 00:57

Quote:

Originally posted by eris
I love the program as it is. I also love watching people second guessing the programmers. If that seems contradictory then maybe that is what it is. However, being contradictory is not a problem for me.

Considering your forum name I'm not the least bit surprised. I would be rather disappointed if it had been a problem.

MrFun · August 25, 2003, 23:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Lord_Davinator
Mr Fun... you are just toooo mean... let the man express his opinion and if you think it can be changed at least tell him how... sigh.... the anger in this forum... its not like they're after your cities...

You leave my CITIES ALONE!!

eao · August 26, 2003, 10:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Captain Crunch
Some early techs should (IMHO) be available to everyone at game start. These include pottery, and polytheism. Polytheistic religions existed long before 4000 BC when the game starts, and pottery too existed long before. I can't think of a single civilization in the game that shouldn't have these techs in 4000 BC. Can you?

If you want to be that historically accurate, the Americans shouldn't be allowed to enter the game until 1600 AD at the earliest.

Mad Bomber · August 26, 2003, 23:35

Quote:

Originally posted by eris

....Right now, that is at the expense of some Koreans sitting on top of what should be MY iron and incense, although they seem to be strongly objecting to my city ownership readjustment pogrom.)

what one person's "City Ownership Readjustment Program" is anothers "War of Naked Aggression"

Such is the way of history and CIV 3.

Paddy · September 1, 2003, 09:22

Quote:

Originally posted by eao

If you want to be that historically accurate, the Americans shouldn't be allowed to enter the game until 1600 AD at the earliest.

Well said, but probably not a good vote winner around here... hahahahaha

maybe they need to have a away for new civilizations to come on line as they did in history.... ahhhh well one day... say 15 to 20 years time....

Vince278 · September 2, 2003, 09:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Paddy the Scot

Well said, but probably not a good vote winner around here... hahahahaha

maybe they need to have a away for new civilizations to come on line as they did in history.... ahhhh well one day... say 15 to 20 years time....

Even as an American myself I do agree. Perhaps if they would bring back civil wars. (The U.S. could then be a piece that broke off of the British Empire.)

Paddy · September 2, 2003, 09:52

Well said sir,

but I still feel we would not see this sort of thing for at least 15 to 29 years the way game development is going......

(ah bugger it, leave their cities in ruins....)

eris · September 2, 2003, 12:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad Bomber

what one person's "City Ownership Readjustment Program" is anothers "War of Naked Aggression"

Such is the way of history and CIV 3.

My point exactly.

Back to the thread topic...

I find that after some reflection, that the thread has altered my visualization of the game somewhat. As I have said before, part of the game is the "feel" of guiding my folk throughout the ages. So, in light of the thread topic of prehistoric techs, I look at the opening narrative a little differently. It says that I am leader of a tribe that has just left the hunter/gatherer stage and setled down in one place. Therefore, that pop 1 city that my first settler makes is little more than a few mostly permanent tents and maybe a few wood or stone structures. We've figured out some farming stuff (worker irrigation) and how to use local resources (worker mining) although both would be unimpressive by modern day standards. Even the people of those days probaby looked at it and went "So what?", at least until they find those first shiny rocks or had their first really good harvest feast.

After that stage, there are some basic things to learn, pots, masonry, etc. Given the orininal content of the thread and the note that all civilizations need these skills to get anywhere, I suggest visualizing all the first level Ancient Age techs as actually being Prehistoric Techs, the stuff we have to learn first. Each civilization has a couple Prehistric techs to start with based on their individual cultural preferences. It may not fit Real Life historical records (or Prehistorical records, whatever that means) as such, but then again, the game can easily get out of synch with Real World timelines. This is true if you do a whole lot of tech trading, or have advanced production turned on, or simply if you are a skille player pushing the limits.

So, now I have a extra level of visualization and cultural advances in my stories of alternate worlds and their histories. This works for me, with a few exceptions.

One is Polytheism. (a personal favorite for many reasons) The tech tree would have me believe that first you make temples and then you create gods and goddesses and such to dedicate them to. I am fairly sure it works the other way around. Even thoush I know of no temples dedicated to my name, when I have won a game, the whole world stands as monument to Eris. That will do nicely.

Then there's this...

"Look, uncle Throm is making funny marks on those rocks. What are they?"
"They are an Alphabet. Those are letters, and the letters say things."
"What do they say?"
"I don't know, we have to research Writing to find out."

Ah well, back to explaining to the world that Cleopatra, Goddess and Queen (even if we do use the word "President" these days) should have Her face on all coins and other such cultural icons, even in the countries that dare to declare war against Her. (Culture win estimated in about 4-5 turns, especially since those annoying Sipahi have just learned about Tanks the hard way. They declared war one turn before I developed Motorized Transportation, the silly people. The Ottomans are only two techs away from their own Tanks, but two techs will be too late in this game.)

Thanks for the thread.

Napoleon I · September 2, 2003, 14:34

Quote:

The tech tree would have me believe that first you make temples and then you create gods and goddesses and such to dedicate them to. I am fairly sure it works the other way around.

Actually, that might not be that far off. Since temples come from ceremonial burial, they are meant initially just as places of worship. Worship doesn't have to be devoted to gods, it could be worship of ancestors, animals, rivers, or thunder for that matter.

Same thing for Writing and the Alphabet. Alphabet is inventing a symbolic system of writing for the game, writing is developing an actually effective technique of making a papirus or something and using ink.

But I agree with you, its a thread that can add to our visualization of the game

Cookie Monster · September 2, 2003, 16:26

I happen to like the futuristic techs found in the CTP series. I also thought that the space feature in CTP 1 was great and was sorely missed by me in CTP 2.