Early game secret projects - how and when to build them?

[Mead]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


PTS needs to be prepared for. Dee kills with it because worst comes to worst she eats fungus. All others need a little infrastructure (either rec commons, HGP) a +2 nut square and/or recycle tanks. As such PTS is usually one of my last SP builds prefering usually HGP, WP, and PEG.

PTS is useful, but like Cloning Vats, have a clearly thought out plan to maximize its benefits and minimize (or eliminate) negative effects before you build, or capture it. Plan on how you're going to handle it before you get it, not after.

With PTS, select sites that are well fed and use any of the many ways mentioned earlier to avoid drone problems. What you get are bases that start at size three which are big enough to build up their base infrastructure, as well as their own defensive units, quickly.

Although I have had PTS bases starve from 3 to 2 real quick, I can't recall having a PTS one starve all the way down to size 1. Yes, 2 is better than 1, and I have consciously established bases with PTS that I knew would starve to 2, but I'd like to keep it at 3 and growing if I can.

I will take or build (if I have no other SP to build at the time) the PTS if I can. I won't recycle it (can you recycle a SP? I've never tried), if I capture it, but in comparison to the other early SPs it ranks pretty low. That being said, I usually end up capturing it rather than building it.


Mead

[Minute Mirage]

I'd like to get a few points clear:

Is it worth using all of your early crawlers to get a SP built in multiplayer, even though it means you'll have to rebuild them at a slower pace? I assume that when playing against the AI, you'd be better off by raising your mineral production with the first crawlers and then building crawlers for the SPs, since you'll be looking for getting most, if not all of the projects. Am I right in thinking that in multiplayer you'd be lucky to get even one of the big three: WP, HGP, VW?

[Gufnork]

Depends on who you play with. They might suck. But generally you'd be hard pressed to get one. And you should use all crawlers to harvest minerals until you can cash them all in at once to finish the project in one turn. Preferably you should have enough crawlers to cash them in and still have atleast one per base. The question is how long you dare to wait. How long you can wait depends on your opponents.

[BustaMike]

Well, I guess I'll just be the minority here. Seems the only way to truly get my point across would be to spank you guys in a game, but I just don't have the time.

PTS is useful, but like Cloning Vats, have a clearly thought out plan to maximize its benefits and minimize (or eliminate) negative effects before you build, or capture it. Plan on how you're going to handle it before you get it, not after.

I keep hearing this logic, and no matter how many times it's repeated it's still bad. More population CANNOT hurt you unless you let it. It just may require a little more micromanagement. Again, who cares if you get more drones because of the extra population, just turn a worker to a specialist, problem solved.

I love the HGP, WP, VW, etc... but not one of these SP's has the power to double your production in one turn. Obviously, there are times when it's better to get something else, but if I can get it early, the PTS rules.

PTS needs to be prepared for. Dee kills with it because worst comes to worst she eats fungus. All others need a little infrastructure (either rec commons, HGP) a +2 nut square and/or recycle tanks. As such PTS is usually one of my last SP builds prefering usually HGP, WP, and PEG.

but to play well, everything should be prepared for .

Vel vs. Zso. Zso kicked Vel's butt IIRC. I bow to the gaming Demon named Zso.

That's right, now I remember. Zso was pretty good .

[Curiosity]

One more aspect of the PTS is that, by raising a base to size 3, it prepares it for a golden age boom. Over on cgn, Archaic has posted a game that really shows the synergy between the PTS and HGP.

It's also an excellent SP for Yang, and for ICSing in general.

[gwillybj]

... All your bases are now size 3...

... by raising a base to size 3...

The PTS does not raise the population of already-existing size 1 and 2 bases to 3.

from help.txt (same in helpx.txt):

#; The Planetary Transit System
#HELPPROJ7
Any new bases you found begin at population level 3. One less drone at all bases of population level 3 and under.

[jtsisyoda]

Originally posted by gwillybj

The PTS does not raise the population of already-existing size 1 and 2 bases to 3.

gwillybj,
In the computer-land battle of specifications vs. behavior, specs lose every time. Don't trust the help file. Build the PTS and watch your bases grow to size 3.

[gwillybj]

I agree there are inaccuracies and outright errors in the documentation and Help, but this has been my consistent experience in this matter:
I have built the PTS in many games, and my size 1 and 2 bases have never grown to size 3 -- neither immediately nor at the beginning of the following turn -- regardless of faction or any other settings.
Did it change from SMAC to SMAX, possibly?
I play SMAC (don't have SMAX), always solo.

Sometimes these things make me wonder about my copy of the game -- except that I've installed, patched, uninstalled, reinstalled, and patched again several times since I got it. I even bought a second copy and installed and patched from that CD -- same results.

[Vev]

Sounds like something to do with SMAC and SMAX. In my SMAX game, all my bases of size 1 & 2 grew to 3.

[UnityScoutChopper]

Nope, happened in SMAC too. Never heard of PTS being broken before some patch... huh.

[Minute Mirage]

Thanks to everyone for your help. I can now get a 30-row project around 2140 without artifacts, which is a considerable improvement. By the way, how much sense would it make to go for the PTS as your first or second project? Would it be feasible to expand until the first bureaucracy limit, build the PTS and then continue?

EDIT: OK, 1940 was a bit too early.

[Jamski]

Second project, yes. Third project, better.

Before you get the PTS, you'd better have the HGP too. Not to mention it would be a shame to miss the WP. You'll need to do a little bit of t-forming to get those size 3 bases fed and watered. And you'll need the HGP to keep them happy. (Unless you're playing on Librarian or lower)

(BTW 1940 is about 200 years faster than me )

-Jam

[BustaMike]

The key to getting the PTS is to get is ASAP. The longer you wait, the less helpful it's gonna be. I know I've argued how good I think it is in this thread, but to be honest, it's usually not the first project I go for. A lot of this depends on the faction you are playing, because a non researching faction might not get the tech crawlers and the PTS fast enough.

In multiplayer games it is vital to gain as much 'turn advantage' as Vel would call it, as possible. That extra 50% minerals on the PTS as opposed to the HGP could end hurting you more than the project helps you, when compared with what getting the HGP earlier could do.

As for bureaucracy drones, I find that I tend to completely ignore the first limit, and if I'm playing someone with good drone control (ex. the Hive) I'll often ignore the second and maybe even the third. As long as building that new base will gain me more resources than it costs, I'll build it. The HGP and the PTS are the two projects that allow you to maximize the number of bases the most and that's why I love them.

I think I should mention that I tend to play a much more energy based game than a mineral based game. If there's no improvement that will benefit me right now in a base I won't build it, I'll build a crawler instead (basically stockpiling minerals). As soon as something becomes profitable, I will rush build it if I can. I start the game with extremely thin expansion if possible. Early on my first 10 bases probably will not have more than a scout for police. I would much rather build formers to maximize my production early on with the increased risk of weak defense. Quick start = more power later. All of this is of course subject to change depending on the situation, but it's generally how I play.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by Jamski
Second project, yes. Third project, better.

Before you get the PTS, you'd better have the HGP too. Not to mention it would be a shame to miss the WP. You'll need to do a little bit of t-forming to get those size 3 bases fed and watered. And you'll need the HGP to keep them happy. (Unless you're playing on Librarian or lower)

Are you talking about single player or multiplayer? Do you expect to get the HGP, the WP and the PTS in MP? If not, what are your priorities? Would you recommend the WP before the others for high-research faction (nut-restrictions lifted quite soon)?

Originally posted by BustaMike
In multiplayer games it is vital to gain as much 'turn advantage' as Vel would call it, as possible. That extra 50% minerals on the PTS as opposed to the HGP could end hurting you more than the project helps you, when compared with what getting the HGP earlier could do.

As far as SP costs are concerned, would you recommend going for the VW with the University despite its higher cost or would you try to get the HGP with them too? Is there any sense in building both the VW and the PTS considering the amount of minerals they require?

Originally posted by BustaMike
As for bureaucracy drones, I find that I tend to completely ignore the first limit, and if I'm playing someone with good drone control (ex. the Hive) I'll often ignore the second and maybe even the third. As long as building that new base will gain me more resources than it costs, I'll build it. The HGP and the PTS are the two projects that allow you to maximize the number of bases the most and that's why I love them.

I assume you're running Planned instead of FM? When I run FM and start getting b-drones, I find myself in trouble. Am I right in my observations that one base over the bureaucracy limit causes a drone in two bases?

Anyway, in my latest experiments I have been running Planned early on, because I find that the reduced mineral costs and increased growth make up for the reduced cash and research. I guess I should continue expanding until the second bureaucracy limit under Planned.

Originally posted by BustaMike
I start the game with extremely thin expansion if possible. Early on my first 10 bases probably will not have more than a scout for police. I would much rather build formers to maximize my production early on with the increased risk of weak defense. Quick start = more power later. All of this is of course subject to change depending on the situation, but it's generally how I play.

I usually build formers first (rushing if able) and then a scout for defense. However, I'd really like to have more than one former per base, but I feel that building another former before a colony pod will slow me down. I probably should build another former per base later, but losing 1 mineral for support makes me a bit hesitant. How do you deal with this?


Now a question for everyone:

How many bases do you devote for the first SP(s), how many bases do you have at that point, and how many do you leave for continuing expansion? How does map size affect this (I'm thinking mainly about normal, large and huge maps). Also, do you try to build all the SPs you want one after the other, i.e. build crawlers all the time until you run out of SPs?

[BustaMike]

As far as SP costs are concerned, would you recommend going for the VW with the University despite its higher cost or would you try to get the HGP with them too? Is there any sense in building both the VW and the PTS considering the amount of minerals they require?

I actually find that I don't build the VW with the University to often if I have a choice. This isn't necessarily a better way to go, it's just how I play. I think the University's greatest strength is it's ability to get MMI first. Even if you only have choppers for 5 turns before your opponents get them you can devastate another faction to a point that basically seals the game for you. That's how I play the Univ. Since the VW is more of a builder style SP, it's not really the one I would go for.

I assume you're running Planned instead of FM? When I run FM and start getting b-drones, I find myself in trouble. Am I right in my observations that one base over the bureaucracy limit causes a drone in two bases?

I do tend to run planned early. As soon as I'm done with initial expansion and feel I can control the drones I will often switch to free market, but often it depends on the faction. With the Hive or Gaians for example I will often run planned for much much longer. The one thing I ALWAYS go for early on though is wealth. I usually won't go killing until later so I'm not worried about the morale, and the +1 industry and economy are wonderful.
As far as the exact number of b-drones goes for each base over, I'm not sure.

I usually build formers first (rushing if able) and then a scout for defense. However, I'd really like to have more than one former per base, but I feel that building another former before a colony pod will slow me down. I probably should build another former per base later, but losing 1 mineral for support makes me a bit hesitant. How do you deal with this?

I also like to build lots of formers, at the bare minimum one per base. Ideally I like to find rocky + mineral resource squares early on. A seven mineral square pre-lifted restrictions is awesome. If I can't find those, I'll usually accept the extra support in bases that have extra minerals. Like I said in an earlier post though, I prefer to play an energy based game, so ultimately the number of extra minerals a base has isn't as important as how much money I make that can be used to rush things. Admittedly, sometimes it's hard to do this at the beginning. Pod popping can be your friend here as a couple hundred extra credits early on can make a huge difference.

I think ultimately, once you have the basics down as far as the construction of your empire goes, the thing that makes great players is originality and ingenuity; being able to see many different ways of attacking your current sitution. For example, I was playing just a friendly 1 on 1 game with my roommate not too long ago. I was the Hive and he was the University. We both had decent starting locations and I immediately found myself falling behind in tech. However, I had had several good pod pops and was able to build the HGP fairly early. This helped my blind expansion and I just kept making bases. I also had found a good deal of cash in some pods. The University had beelined for Industrial Auto as it should and got it quite early. Then I made him an offer that was too good to pass up. At around turn 30 or so I offered him 300 energy (all of my energy, all from lucky pod pops) for Industrial Auto, all of my money at the time. He should have refused, but the amount was too tempting (so big so early) for him to pass up. For the next 20 turns I only built formers, colony pods, and crawlers, with one notable exception... the PTS. I rushed for it ASAP, and when I got it my pop doubled and the drone reductions allowed me to build even more bases. I had over 20 by turn 60 or so. By this point he had realized his error. Although none of my bases were more than size 4, I had so much production power that I was able to crank out a huge amount of impact rovers in a very short time. Just in case I continued to build with my core cities, but everything else went to an endless stream of rovers. The goal wasn't to end the game so much as it was to screw him up enough with defending his empire that he wouldn't have time to build up as all of his resources would go toward defense. After a few turns of this he conceded.

The key to this game as I see it, was offering that ridiculous amount of money for a single tech. Some players might see through this and think better of it, but the offer took him by surprise enough for him to accept it .

How many bases do you devote for the first SP(s), how many bases do you have at that point, and how many do you leave for continuing expansion? How does map size affect this (I'm thinking mainly about normal, large and huge maps). Also, do you try to build all the SPs you want one after the other, i.e. build crawlers all the time until you run out of SPs?

Usually, all of my bases will be building pods until I have at least 5 or 6 bases, then the fringe bases will continue to build pods. I space all of my bases 3 moves apart if possible. I feel it's optimal because it allows you to put them down quickly, units on roads can move from one base to the next in 1 turn, and there is adequate room for growth early (later on you can use crawlers).
Like I said earlier, I will build crawlers unless there is something more productive for my base to build. Basically my bases default to building crawlers, but I definitely don't build them exclusively.

Well that was a long post. I hope at least some of that helps .

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by BustaMike

I actually find that I don't build the VW with the University to often if I have a choice. This isn't necessarily a better way to go, it's just how I play. I think the University's greatest strength is it's ability to get MMI first. Even if you only have choppers for 5 turns before your opponents get them you can devastate another faction to a point that basically seals the game for you. That's how I play the Univ. Since the VW is more of a builder style SP, it's not really the one I would go for.

What are your beelines if you play the Uni like this? Do you still go first for IA and then straight to MMI, without worrying about restriction lifting?

Originally posted by BustaMike
I also like to build lots of formers, at the bare minimum one per base. Ideally I like to find rocky + mineral resource squares early on. A seven mineral square pre-lifted restrictions is awesome. If I can't find those, I'll usually accept the extra support in bases that have extra minerals.

At what stage do you build the second former? Do you build it after you have stopped building colony pods with that base?

[Curiosity]

Originally posted by Minute Mirage


Are you talking about single player or multiplayer? Do you expect to get the HGP, the WP and the PTS in MP?

I think that one point about MP, is that it's usually unpredictable. If 3 players start close together then it's possible for the fourth to sweep the early SPs while the other fight it out; if one player is playing a tech faction and the other isn't then they can get most of the SPs by using crawlers wisely.

Generally, assume that most things are going to be harder in MP, but sometimes they can be a lot easier.

How many bases do you devote for the first SP(s), how many bases do you have at that point, and how many do you leave for continuing expansion?

Depends very much on faction, SE choices etc. Typically I would stop expanding whenever I can't handle the drones and build the HGP, which only takes 4 bases building a crawler apiece if I have SotHB.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by Curiosity

Depends very much on faction, SE choices etc. Typically I would stop expanding whenever I can't handle the drones and build the HGP, which only takes 4 bases building a crawler apiece if I have SotHB.

I assume you mean upgrading to synthmetal trance crawlers? How do you get the cash for this, are you running FM? Is crawler upgrading normally allowed in the MP games you play?

[BustaMike]

What are your beelines if you play the Uni like this? Do you still go first for IA and then straight to MMI, without worrying about restriction lifting?

Always IA immediately... IMO it's the most important early tech, then usually I'll head for MMI depending on how quick I can get it. Tech trading makes this much easier. One strategy I've used before is stockpiling a bunch of crawlers before you reach MMI. As soon as you get it switch every base over to building a prototype chopper. Crawlers can be used to build prototypes . Give all your bases enough minerals from the crawlers so that a regular unit can be finished and rush one prototype with crawlers or cash. This essentially allows you to start mass producing choppers before the appropriate tech with no penalty .

At what stage do you build the second former? Do you build it after you have stopped building colony pods with that base?

It depends a lot on the terrain. If I have good squares (i.e. rainy, rolling) I might hold off on the former a little more. I don't really have an exact time I build them... kinda just when it looks right to me. Sorry if that's not really helpful.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by BustaMike

It depends a lot on the terrain. If I have good squares (i.e. rainy, rolling) I might hold off on the former a little more. I don't really have an exact time I build them... kinda just when it looks right to me. Sorry if that's not really helpful.

Not at all, I understand it's good to be flexible rather than follow a rigid pattern in every game.

[Curiosity]

MM,

Nope, just a normal supply crawler with trance. The upgrade gives 20 minerals and costs 50 ec, which is a fairly good deal; about the same as rush-buying crawlers, but it's easier to handle. At this stage I probably haven't prototyped synthmetal, and the balance it gives between cash and minerals is just about right for my early economy. I only start using armour for upgrades when I get rover supplies.

I do normally run FM/wealth; that's why the HGP is pretty important. I've never known crawler upgrading to be banned in a game. If it was, then I owe some people an apology.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by Curiosity

I do normally run FM/wealth; that's why the HGP is pretty important.

How do you deal with the b-drones under FM before the HGP? Or do you stop at the first bureaucracy limit?

[Curiosity]

MM,

For the UoP (and I guess CyC, though I don't like them much), I have the tech for crawlers long before I hit the first limit, so the HGP can be built while I'm crossing that threshhold. If I time it right then I've probably just planted a couple of bases over the b-limit a few turns before the HGP is built.
(In MP I'd go for it sooner than that, mind you, unless I'm playing vs the Hive perhaps. Also I have the back up of aiming for the VW, and the secondary back-up of going to Demo, raising the b-limit, since Zak gets Ethical Calculus about now.)

For Morgan, IA and the b-limit come at about the same time. However, the extra cash helps speed things up, and there's still, at worst, only a minor hiccup in expansion. Loosing out on the HGP is pretty disasterous, though.

For the other factions I normally play in FM - Drones, PKs - there are happiness bonuses, so it's not an issue.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by Curiosity
MM,

For the UoP (and I guess CyC, though I don't like them much), I have the tech for crawlers long before I hit the first limit, so the HGP can be built while I'm crossing that threshhold. If I time it right then I've probably just planted a couple of bases over the b-limit a few turns before the HGP is built.
(In MP I'd go for it sooner than that, mind you, unless I'm playing vs the Hive perhaps. Also I have the back up of aiming for the VW, and the secondary back-up of going to Demo, raising the b-limit, since Zak gets Ethical Calculus about now.)

What map size are you using? Also, how often do you manage to get the HGP in MP?

[Curiosity]

MM,

I play huge and standard, and it works out about the same on both - the difference in the b-limit is roughly balanced by the faster tech It's a little better on huge, though. Doesn't work well on tiny maps.

How often would I get HGP in MP - it really depends.

Firstly on your opponent(s), their strategy and faction. Playing vs the Hive or Believers I don't normally expect them to take it away from me. OTOH, Zak vs Morgan is a tight race.
Secondly on plain old luck with AAs and start position. You can't do anything about this, you just have to have a backup plan if/when someone builds it one turn before you. (Which is why I don't really play Morgan in MP.)

But, FWIW: In my current 5 games I would expect to get it in 2-3 of them (I already have it in one, and have a shot at it in all the games) and in 2 of those I'm not going for a FM strategy, due to my faction. Only one game is with Zak, and I'd expect to build it most reliably with him.

In my old games I'm not sure; I've been away for 3 years, and I don't remember much from them now.

[Minute Mirage]

I've been experimenting between using Planned/Wealth and FM/Wealth while building the SPs. Planned gives me a 3 minerals discount per crawler, makes my bases grow faster to size 2 and actually allows me to use that second sitizen. However, it gives me less cash than FM and screws my research rate.

Now, what is the best way to use the extra cash FM gives? I know many people recommend upgrading crawlers and if I've understood correctly there are two ways of doing this:

1) Crawler with trance

Mineral rows: 5
Cost of upgrade: 50
Cost of one mineral row when upgrading: 25

2) Crawler with synthmetal armour and trance

Mineral rows: 8
Cost of upgrade: 90
Cost of one mineral row when upgrading: 15

The second kind of upgrade gives you the best bang for buck, but you need to have synthmetal prototyped. In the games I've played, I haven't prototyped anything before starting to build the SPs, so the first upgrade is the only possibility.

However, the problem I have with upgrading is that the money is only useful when I have enough crawlers to actually build the project. Until this point I haven't been able to use the money for anything while I've saved enough for the upgrades and waited for the crawlers to finish. So what I've been doing instead of upgrading is using all my money rush-building crawlers. The cost of rushing is not much more (sometimes less) than upgrading in case 1), and the benefit is that the crawlers can earn back a part of that cost by harvesting minerals.

So my questions are:

1.

Am I right in rush-building the crawlers instead of upgrading them, if I haven't prototyped synthmetal?

2.

Would it be better to take the time to prototype synthmetal, in order to be able to upgrade the crawlers into a more expensive variant?

3. Are there better uses for the cash to get SPs built quicker? Are there any other ways to upgrade the crawlers?

[CEO Aaron]

1. Never rush build units unless a) You have to b) they're formers or colony pods. Units are more expensive to rush than facilities, and only formers and pods have a high enough payoff to warrant rushing them.

2. I think so. I usually play Morgan, and they begin the game with synthmetal prototyped, but I still think it's worth taking a productive base offline for an extra turn or two to more efficiently use your cash. In the end, the more bases you have, the more worth it it will be.

3. If your goal is to turn ECs into SPs, crawler upgrades are the best deal BY FAR, and so long as the SP you're building gives solid dividends toward generating more turn advantage, there's not many better deals out there, in terms of investments of your production turns.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
1. Never rush build units unless a) You have to b) they're formers or colony pods. Units are more expensive to rush than facilities, and only formers and pods have a high enough payoff to warrant rushing them.

Let's consider the following the scenario:

I'm building a crawler, 20/30 minerals, 2 mins/turn.
The cost to rush build the 8 mins required to build the crawler in 1 turn is 20 ECs. If I rush the crawler instead of waiting it to finish, I get it 4 turns earlier. If I have a forest ready, I can crawl 8 mins during the four turns. By the time the crawler would have finished, I have gotten 16 minerals for another project (e.g. another crawler).

Did I miss something here? Is this a bad deal?

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
2. I think so. I usually play Morgan, and they begin the game with synthmetal prototyped, but I still think it's worth taking a productive base offline for an extra turn or two to more efficiently use your cash. In the end, the more bases you have, the more worth it it will be.

I'm beginning to think I need to try this, at least. I wonder if actually using a crawler to prototype synthmetal was wise. Let's see:

If I have four crawlers, I could upgrade them into trance with 200 ECs and be able to build a 20-row project.

I could also use one of the crawlers to prototype synthmetal, and in the following turn upgrade two of the three crawlers to trance synth with 180 ECs. The three crawlers would give me a 20-row project minus one row, which shouldn't be too hard to get. This way I've saved 20 ECs, prototyped synthmetal and gotten a synthmetal garrison unit. Doesn't sound too bad.

[Curiosity]

1. Sometimes, sometimes not.

In particular, the cost of upgrading is controlled by mineral rows, rather than mineral cost; so, if you have a high mineral rating then it may be better to rush the crawlers, until you get to the better upgrade opportunities on the rover chassis.

Though, I often end up both rushing the crawlers and upgrading them, at least on huge maps. Plus, upgrading has the advantage of being plain easier to manage.


2. Interesting point about the trance/synth crawler upgrade being much cheaper... there are also incidental advantages to prototyping synth.
If it gives 8 rows then 2 trance/synth + 1 normal crawler is pretty efficient for a 200 mineral project. You get 20 minerals and 20 EC over trance-only, which almost pays for the synthmetal prototype, and it will help you in future projects. Cool, I'll start experimenting with this.

[CEO Aaron]

MM: Your example, while illustrative of Vel's concept of comparitive turn advantage is spurious in two respects: #1. You don't have enough EC's to rush everything everywhere. #2. You probably have other bases producing other things that will produce better dividends from the cash you've got to spend.

Most SPs are incredibly efficient generators of turn-advantage, much more than a couple of extra minerals from idle crawlers. Don't get me wrong, you'll want to roll crawlers to get minerals in order to ramp up your production, they're a very good deal, but each SP can only be built ONCE, and if you miss out, the only way to regain the benefit is a protracted war, since the faction you deprive of it will be VERY determined to get it back. Besides, most SPs will be built in core bases, making them very hard to approach.

Once I get home, I'll post an example pointing out the comparative value of rushing your crawlers to rushing your project, and you'll see what I mean. Until then....