Thread Tools
Old August 19, 2003, 14:06   #1
our_man
Civilization II Democracy Game: Red FrontScenario League / Civ2-Creation
Prince
 
our_man's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:36
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 522
WIP: The Troubles
A suggestion of Elok's in his historical notions thread convinced me to blow the dust off a Northern Ireland scenario I had abandoned in the belief that maybe there would be an audience out there for one more Irish scenario.

First of all, the history of the North is a very sensitive subject ; since the start of 'The Troubles' at least 3,000 people, mostly civilians, have lost their lives. Sadly people are still dying for no good reason there to this day.

I decided early on that a scenario about the senseless ***-for-tat revenge between the various paramilitary groups would not be appropriate, and wouldn't be much fun anyway. So I tried to consider other angles from which to create a scenario based around the troubles, and eventually wandered into 'what if' territory.

Relations between the British and Irish governments were at an all time low in the early '70's, following Britain's ill-timed military intervention in the North. They went in to try and stop the fighting, but through a series of bad (and sometimes callous) judgements against the catholic population, only ended up exacerbating the tensions e.g. Bloody Sunday, Internment. It also enraged the population of the Republic; in the aftermath of Bloody Sunday the British Embassy in Dublin was burnt to the ground by a mob intent on revenge. What if, instead of simply applying what little political pressure Ireland had on Britain, then Taoiseach Jack Lynch decided to respond by ordering Irish soldiers into the North to do the job that British soldiers should have been doing; protecting nationalists from loyalist mobs?

Despite the fact that the IRA were outlawed in the Republic, there were no doubt pro-IRA members in the Lynch government. For example in May 1970, two Cabinet Ministers, Neil Blaney and Charles Haughey, were dismissed by the Taoiseach, Jack Lynch, for allegedly using Government money to import arms for the Irish Republican Army. In this scenario their influence, together with the public outcry against British action in the North, is enough to tip Lynch's hand into invading...

Well, what do you think? Plausible?

I have the map and terrain done. My first BIG thankyou is to Mercator for designing MapEdit - the reason I decided to make this scenario is due to this fantastic utility. I was way too lazy to bother to do out a map of Northern Ireland, so I used MapEdit on my map of Ireland to cut out the south of the country. Hours of work saved.

I'd like to post some screenshots of what I've done so far, but I don't know how to capture in-game images from Civ2 so that they can be posted. If someone wiser than me knows how, please tell me.
__________________
STDs are like pokemon... you gotta catch them ALL!!!
our_man is offline  
Old August 19, 2003, 14:19   #2
Paul Hanson
King
 
Paul Hanson's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:36
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Dilbert
Posts: 1,839
Sounds like a good subject for a scenario. Mind you, do you really think that the Irish Army (which, let's be honest, isn't regarded as being one of the world's more numerous) would really stand a chance if the British decided to really fight back?

If you want to capture an in-game image, press the Print Screen key on the keyboard when you've got Civ2 at the front, then open up MSPaint (or any other piece of graphics software) and paste the image into it. Bear in mind that 'Poly only allows images to be 800x600 or less, so you'll probably need to crop the image somewhat.
__________________
"Paul Hanson, you should give Gibraltar back to the Spanish" - Paiktis, dramatically over-estimating my influence in diplomatic circles.

Eyewerks - you know you want to visit. No really, you do. Go on, click me.
Paul Hanson is offline  
Old August 19, 2003, 14:42   #3
fairline
Scenario League / Civ2-Creation
King
 
fairline's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:36
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: of the wing
Posts: 2,013
It's a tricky subject, as you say, Our_Man, but given the right treatment could be an interesting one. I think Paul Hanson has a point when he suggests that the Irish Army wouldn't stand a chance against the full weight of the British military, so perhaps a scenario which reflected reality, mindless provos, 'loyalists' and all, would be more believable.

If the 'Troubles' is too sensitive a subject, how about a treatment of the Easter Rising and subsequent independence and civil war?

BTW, when you do the screen-dump, remeber to cntrl-x before-hand to normalise the civ screen.
fairline is offline  
Old August 19, 2003, 14:50   #4
our_man
Civilization II Democracy Game: Red FrontScenario League / Civ2-Creation
Prince
 
our_man's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:36
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 522
That's the point Paul.

The Irish Army does not have a hope in hell of defeating the British Army in real-life, so this scenario will be very hard to win. For a start, the Irish army is almost completely defence orientated; it has very little offensive capability. The British will have superiority of training, weapons and numbers. About the only thing going for the Republic's forces are the fact that they will enjoy wide-scale support from the civilian population in the North. Against my better judgement, I'm also considering giving them IRA units that pop up around the North. They'd basically function as scouts (Ign. ZOC, See 2, All as Road) and demolition squads (destroyed after attacking, v. high firepower) for the Irish Army.
__________________
STDs are like pokemon... you gotta catch them ALL!!!
our_man is offline  
Old August 19, 2003, 15:22   #5
our_man
Civilization II Democracy Game: Red FrontScenario League / Civ2-Creation
Prince
 
our_man's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:36
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 522
OK, here come's a screenshot (I hope).

A general overview of the map.
Attached Thumbnails:
Click image for larger version

Name:	ireland2.jpg
Views:	88
Size:	59.1 KB
ID:	51689  
__________________
STDs are like pokemon... you gotta catch them ALL!!!
our_man is offline  
Old August 19, 2003, 15:28   #6
our_man
Civilization II Democracy Game: Red FrontScenario League / Civ2-Creation
Prince
 
our_man's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:36
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 522
Followed by a detailed look at Counties Antrim and Down...
Attached Thumbnails:
Click image for larger version

Name:	ireland.jpg
Views:	88
Size:	129.5 KB
ID:	51690  
__________________
STDs are like pokemon... you gotta catch them ALL!!!
our_man is offline  
Old August 19, 2003, 16:49   #7
Stefan Härtel
Civilization II Democracy Game: ExodusScenario League / Civ2-Creation
King
 
Stefan Härtel's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:36
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Some cold place
Posts: 2,336
Looks good, but I'd suggest to drop Nemo's city graphics. Apart from the fact that they're old, to me they're not even realistic. I think we should introduce a new standart modern city graphic.
__________________
Follow the masses!
30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!
Stefan Härtel is offline  
Old August 19, 2003, 17:21   #8
our_man
Civilization II Democracy Game: Red FrontScenario League / Civ2-Creation
Prince
 
our_man's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:36
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 522
Stefan, if someone could provide me with good new city graphics and matching suburb/railroad squares, I'd be happy to change.

I'd do it myself except that I'm awful at drawing (don't expect to see any original artwork in this scenario).
__________________
STDs are like pokemon... you gotta catch them ALL!!!
our_man is offline  
Old August 20, 2003, 09:45   #9
typhoon
Scenario League / Civ2-Creation
Warlord
 
typhoon's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:36
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: of Bollocks
Posts: 251
smiley seems to have the right idea when it comes to city graphics. Other than that use curtsibling's Soviet Steel cities which are in widespread proliferation.
typhoon is offline  
Old August 20, 2003, 14:57   #10
Arthedain
staff
Scenario League / Civ2-Creation
Moderator
 
Arthedain's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:36
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Helsingborg, Scania
Posts: 1,253
actually I don't think the city-style from soviet steele fit a scenario on a map with a scale like this. it didn't work for my rework of Gulf War
Arthedain is offline  
Old August 20, 2003, 22:21   #11
:) Smiley
Scenario League / Civ2-Creation
Emperor
 
:) Smiley's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:36
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: hippieland, CA
Posts: 3,781
I use a 1 floor = 2 pixels scale in UrbCiv, the tiles used in that screenshot look more like 1=3 or 1=4.

The tiles are drawn with an American or Asian city in mind though. I don't know what Irish cities look like.
__________________
Visit First Cultural Industries
There are reasons why I believe mankind should live in cities and let nature reclaim all the villages with the exception of a few we keep on display as horrific reminders of rural life.-Starchild
Meat eating and the dominance and force projected over animals that is acompanies it is a gateway or parallel to other prejudiced beliefs such as classism, misogyny, and even racism. -General Ludd
:) Smiley is offline  
Old August 21, 2003, 10:49   #12
Elok
Scenario League / Civ2-Creation
Emperor
 
Elok's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:36
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Having tea with the Third Man...
Posts: 6,169
Well, it's good to know I inspired somebody for once...
This is looking rather impressive so far; I agree that you should get Smiley to lend you UrbCiv though. I've never been to Ireland either but those buildings look a bit Victorian for the 1970s.
BTW, maybe you mentioned this and I'm too dense to pick up on it, but what does WIP stand for? Warlike Irish Pride?
__________________
"May I be forgiven for the ills that I have done/Friends I have forsaken and strangers I have shunned/Sins I have committed, for which others had to pay/And I haven't met the whiskey that can wash those stains away."
-Brady's Leap, "Wash."
Elok is offline  
Old August 21, 2003, 11:44   #13
Paul Hanson
King
 
Paul Hanson's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:36
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Dilbert
Posts: 1,839
Work In Progress, I would guess.
__________________
"Paul Hanson, you should give Gibraltar back to the Spanish" - Paiktis, dramatically over-estimating my influence in diplomatic circles.

Eyewerks - you know you want to visit. No really, you do. Go on, click me.
Paul Hanson is offline  
Old August 21, 2003, 12:08   #14
Elok
Scenario League / Civ2-Creation
Emperor
 
Elok's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:36
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Having tea with the Third Man...
Posts: 6,169
Oh. Duh...
__________________
"May I be forgiven for the ills that I have done/Friends I have forsaken and strangers I have shunned/Sins I have committed, for which others had to pay/And I haven't met the whiskey that can wash those stains away."
-Brady's Leap, "Wash."
Elok is offline  
Old August 21, 2003, 15:15   #15
Panda
Prince
 
Local Time: 07:36
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Europe
Posts: 744
our_man: while I would hate to dissuade anyone, I would suggest peeking at http://sleague.apolyton.net/Reviews/ds_nire.shtml and taking note of those criticisms. It seemed to me that if paramilitary activity became too out of control then London would simply strengthen the armies presence, given the very strong political will on this issue. Perhaps another, non-military angle should be investigated?

However, it is also evident that the a scenario of the troubles is missing a magnum opus, as we've only had simple scenarios trying to depict a complex situation of poltical, economic, and military importance. If you want to move away from civ's classic 4X structure you could somehow depict the importance of external resources on an insurgent conflict, in particular the funding (from America, Libya, and heroin) and weapons going to PIRA.
__________________
"I didn't invent these rules, I'm just going to use them against you."
Panda is offline  
Old August 23, 2003, 11:11   #16
our_man
Civilization II Democracy Game: Red FrontScenario League / Civ2-Creation
Prince
 
our_man's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:36
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 522
Panda, I've taken note of what you've said; I even considered these very points myself when setting out to make this scenario. I do not want to make a scenario on the paramilitary groups because I do not believe it could not be realistically done within the confines of the Civilization II engine. Well, not exactly; almost anything can be done with Civ2 if you use your imagination, that's what makes the game so good in the first place!

I think what you're suggesting is interesting, but I cannot see any particular way to go about implementing it. The IRA was never very large, in comparison with either the Palestinian or Colombian terrorist groups. It just punched way above what its weight would suggest. As such a small group would never be able to control cities in the classical Civ2 sense, an entirely new scoring system would need to be devised to represent this.

My intention at the moment is still to make a scenario about a war between the ROI and Britain for control of the province. It will be more or less a straightforward military campaign (i.e. nothing that hasn't been done a thousand times before) set over a period of 2-3 weeks, but I hope to make it fun nonetheless.

This isn't set in stone however, so if I hear enough suggestions/criticisms about my approach I might reconsider.

To other matters: one of the reasons I stopped working on this in the first place is that I realized while knowing a great deal of the political situation at the time, I knew very little about the military aspect.

If any of the resident military history buffs could provide me with details about the strength of the British forces in the North and the Irish army at the time, I would greatly appreciate it.
__________________
STDs are like pokemon... you gotta catch them ALL!!!
our_man is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:36.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team