Spite and Malice....

[UnOrthOdOx]

Hey Vel,

nice to hear from you once again.

I can say that there is some truth in what you say. There was some animosity amongst some members of other teams due to GS recruiting techniques. I think you overestimate their numbers, though, since those who were the most concerned with your team were the most vocal as well.

So, yes, there are those that felt you were a threat, or at least the favorites in this game from the beginning. I, however, feel they are a minority, not a majority.

Personally, I have stated several times that I never considered them a threat from the beginning.

No, I have stated that I would prefer nothing more than to defeat GS at this time. This is true. Why? For reasons in and out of game.

In game GS has the strongest military. They have seen fit to bring that military onto Bob. This military has a secured base on Bob. I can think of nothing more glorious in game than defeating this military. Led by some of the most brilliant tactical minds on Apolyton.

Out of game, GS has made it a point of taking the high ground on every issue to date. What's more, they have made it a point of letting everyone KNOW it's the high ground. While I have nothing against a 'holy', 'honorable' or 'moral' team in and of itself, one that sees fit to canstantly remind me of that fact grates on my nerves.

I have been told through PM that this is/has been some roleplaying. Great! I choose to roleplay too. Therefore when I state this Lawfull Good Team sickens me and I would prefer nothing more than to kill this team, it is no different from my attitude of purposely hunting down and killing any Paladin I meet in a D&D game.

[Hot Mustard]

Ooh - assigning D&D characters classes to PtWDG Teams, are we? Sounds like fun!

How about a Lawful Neutral Bard for RP?

And I'm thinking a Chaotic Evil Barbarian for GoW.

[Darekill]

Vox is in my Opinion in a much less likely position to win the game than ND is. Lux is out of the game and they realy did a splendid good job with pissing us on thje very first few turns...
As for spain I can hardly belive that they will rise to great power again. I do not belive that they could become more than a Vasall to GS anymore.

[Velociryx]

Hiya UnOrthOdOx, and good to see your voice added here as well!

Yep...by now, I think the folks who began their comments in this thread by stating that it just wasn't so have seen some pretty good evidence to the contrary....we've had folks come here and say that this is, in fact, a thought in their head and/or the thoughts in the heads of some of their team mates.

That, plus the fact that our team has taken casualties because of it, taken together with the above, more than proves the point, IMO.

That feeling is out there, and has nothing to do with game mechanics.

As for the role playing angle....some are, undoubtedly. The views in my letters, however....no role playing there. The views expressed are exactly my views on the war, and are my guiding principles as I help formulate strategy.

If that view chaffes you, then you have my sincere apologies, but it does not change the way I see the war.

If you seek our destruction....our undoing, I think it safe to say that as the war grinds on, you shall have ample opportunity to do so, for we will not abandon Spain to your wrath.

-=Vel=-

[Darekill]

what would ND be Dejon?
A lawful evil dungeon master mayhapps?

[Velociryx]

Ah....and to those who believe that Spain will never again be strong....all I can say is watch and see....Viva Espania!

-=Vel=-

[Hot Mustard]

Originally posted by Darekill
what would ND be Dejon?
A lawful evil dungeon master mayhapps?

Hard to say - ND is so quiet. Maybe a Monk? Definitely Lawful, but I'm not sure about Evil. If I had to guess, I'd say Neutral.

[Panzer32]

GS officially renames their team to TTTTTTA

(Trip The Teams That Tripped Trip's Ass)

[Harovan]

EDIT: Never mind, don't need to respond on that.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Panzer32
GS officially renames their team to TTTTTTA

(Trip The Teams That Tripped Trip's Ass)

Uh.... wasn't it ND that attacked Trip's Ass and GoW that backstabbed him?

Remember, Trip's ass was trashed even before Trash Trip's Ass could get to it

[Panzer32]

Originally posted by Arnelos

Uh.... wasn't it ND that attacked Trip's Ass and GoW that backstabbed him?

It depends on what you call backstabbing. I believe ND was fully aware of our military capabilities at the time (2 horsemen that would not get to the main fight in time). We did help on a clean-up attack though.

And Sir Ralph, I don't know if it was my post you had responded to but I'm sorry if TTTTTTA has offended anybody... I didn't mean to and it was in the spirit of fun, just like the original TTA name

edit - was it Trash Trip's Ass or Trip Trip's Ass? I forget...

[notyoueither]

It was Trash Trip's Ass, and it got changed ASAP. I did not feel that targetting any team because of the people involved would be a very good thing to do for the community. Hmmm, I guess I was right.

[DeepO]

aha, you started it nye!

DeepO

[Panzer32]

IIRC it was just for fun, I don't hold it against GS and I'm wondering why they hold it against themselves

[Hot_Enamel]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Yep...by now, I think the folks who began their comments in this thread by stating that it just wasn't so have seen some pretty good evidence to the contrary....we've had folks come here and say that this is, in fact, a thought in their head and/or the thoughts in the heads of some of their team mates.

That, plus the fact that our team has taken casualties because of it, taken together with the above, more than proves the point, IMO.

That feeling is out there, and has nothing to do with game mechanics.

-=Vel=-

Are you looking for some reason or excuse in case GS does not win the game ?
If so, I think you have missed the point.

Just because some players admit that GS was the team to watch, does not directly translate to some preconceived plan that all the teams were out to get you.

The only players who claim this is the case are GS members. It seems no matter how often it is denied, GS still want to cling to the idea that “Everyone is against us”

Please leave room for a line of thought that current in-game hostilities are based solely on GS diplomacy and military action.

[notyoueither]

De Nile should be a river in Egypt. However, it seems it is more widespread.

Nope there is no good reason for some of the members of GS to quit this game. Nope, none at all. It's all in their heads.

Nope, that thead so long ago where Togas and I had it out did not happen. It's all in their heads.

Why the hell do you cling to your feeble denials so, H_E? It's been freakin' admitted by others in this very same thread!

Now, can we get on with killing each other?

[Velociryx]

A quote from...ummmm...you, actually, earlier in this thread:

Although I would love to agree with Vondrack, he already knows my opinion from another PBEM. It is my philosophy that the strongest players, and the ones with the best starts should be eliminated first by an alliance.

Now...I don't claim to be a genius, but this has....what, exactly to do with in-game events?

Does this not bear out EXACTLY the line of thinking I describe?

And for the record, you're not the only one to have voiced it. Not by far.

There is a real problem afoot when people feel that they have to leave the game because the personal level of animosity....the level of "get 'em no matter what" reaches such a fevered pitch that it becomes more of a grudge match than a fun game.

Or....do you not see how that might be possible?

-=Vel=-

[Hot_Enamel]

Vel, thankyou for quoting me. I was unaware that you were basing your conspiracy theory on my few posts. (Yes – you said you have other evidence, but I have not seen it)

I posted, that it being valid policy, to identify the most dangerous teams and create alliances against them first.
Surely GS did the same workup ?
*** Poof - Gone ***
Did it actually happen in this game ?… I don’t think it did, and I have not seen any evidence of it.
I am not surprised that that teams would treat GS with some apprehension at the beginning, but to be honest, that’s as far it would go…it’s a giant leap to use this as proof that every team is against you. And then say it was the cause of GS members leaving the team !

I have not seen any evidence within the GoW forum that we paid any special attention to GS. Especially since you had such an isolated start.

The bulk of the flame posts have been arguments about specific acts and policies, and have been directed at all teams. Even GoW have had their fair share
However GS is the only team saying… “We can’t be wrong, therefore there must be an ulterior motive”

But hell … if you want to believe it, then nothing anyone says will ever change your mind. It’s a little paranoid, and disappointing that GS {edit - removed this bit.. on a reread, it sounded a little harsh } will not admit that they have made mistakes or could of handled their diplomacy a little better.

From my perspective, this is the reason, and the sole reason, for my personal ingame vendetta. And of course, it will stop as soon as you leave Bob.


Edit .. Usual disclaimers…no offense to anyone .. just a rant

[Arnelos]

H_E,

No *major* spoilers here, but I don't think we're supposed to post stuff about the history of CDG, GCA, Apolyton, and CFC relations in a public board which people from GWT and Grenoule (just to name 2) frequently visit and anyone from any team can view. At least, not until we have contact with those teams in-game, that is.

[BigFree]

Doh, no he didn't...no he didn't! The heat must be on in GoW land!

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
I posted, that it being valid policy, to identify the most dangerous teams and create alliances against them first.
Surely GS did the same workup ?

To be fair, I will admit that my initial post of analysis for the other teams in the game BEFORE the game started and we viewed the in-game situation labelled Gathering Storm as the #1 threat we'd need to contend with.

The in-game situation (once we became aware of it) dictated a very different stance toward GS.

RP-GS relations have certainly been rocky at times (or so I have been lead to believe by people on both sides), but the key is that even the level of in-game animosity built up was easily overcome by the sheer seductive power of compatable in-game interests.

That the same did not occur between other sets of teams is what *I* find interesting. I'll grant that animosity over in-game events has been present between a number of pairs of teams... the point is that every team other than Glory of War seems reasonably capable of pushing those issues aside, forgiving the past, and pursuing the interests of the present.

Maybe we're all just more cold and calculated than you hot-blooded warmongers and maybe you're just putting on an act. Maybe we are. The point is that things certainly LOOK like GoW has had a great deal more difficulty coldly making the choice to overlook or forgive past abuses in order to pursue current interests than other teams.

As for the type of cold bastards we at least seem to be, I personally like the words of Lord Palmerston:

"We have no eternal allies and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual."
(emphasis mine)

EDIT: Given what Togas just posted, you can see this is more of MY perspective than my whole team's perspective RP has been reasonably cold, calculated and Machiavellian until this current war... this current war has made it immeasurably difficult to pursue such a course in the case of Glory of War. I was actually able to get an alliance agreement with Glory of War passed (barely) before this war, but I'm rather sure that any agreement with Glory of War I or Togas suggested now would get us beheaded.

Given all of this, I'd argue that there's a serious difference between the animosity that existed RP-GS and that which exists RP-GoW.

[Togas]

Back on Topic:

I very rarely post in this forum anymore due to the high volume of flames and hate-posts that are posted here daily, as well as the large amounts of lame self-justifications and bullsh*t that I have to read through to get to anything of meaning.

What the hell??? When did this game go from being a fun contest to such a truely hateful and miserable affair? I no longer find any interest in this forum as it tends to make my blood boil and anger rise up.

I'd like to set a few things straight before I sink back into seculsion and ignore this forum for another week or so.

1) I personally had my own irrational beef with Gathering Storm and with NotYouEither due to things I read into their posts and replies. I was a jerk and a moron for having such opinions and feelings. I recanted later on, but the damage was done and quite frankly I have been proven wrong again and again as my people have received immesurable aid in this game, Aid that we did not deserve, could not pay for, and aid that defied the machiavellian principles that we had adopted and clung to. Countless individuals from Gathering Storm have made immeasurable contributions that go far beyond mere military units or gold -- acts of charity and generosity that have been given to a people that, frankly, do not deserve such aid.

I have an immense bond and fondness for my teammates, but we are not the charitable sort. We would have never done what GS has done for us. Never. Yet they do this quite selflessly for us. That sobering fact reminds me daily of how blessed our nation is, and how lucky my people are, and it washes away some of the bitterness and anger and frustration for the pains and loss that Spain has suffered, and for the great burden I carry as the leader of Spain.

Whatever old grudges and biases I once felt for GS are long since gone. Whatever old issues I had with NYE are long since forgotten. It has nothing with getting some military aid or some free gold and techs. It has everything to do with witnessing firsthand the true character and nature of a team, and realizing just how absolutely wrong I was.

2) Spite and Malice -- the vast level of hatred, anger, burning vengence that my team feels for Glory of War cannot be put into words. Arnelos and I humored Aggie and MasterZen (two fellows I get along with very well outside this game) in their discussion of Surrender terms, and the discussion went well, but when it was brought to our team, I was nearly executed for even having the discussion. It wasn't something we very seriously considered, mostly due to GoW's lack of credibility, but after your nation has been raped, pillaged, and destroyed ... after being insulted daily in the public forums, seeing cities raized and renamed, seeing your captured workers renamed to personal attacks, and listening to the constant *****ing and blame-casting by a bunch of arrogant a**holes, well, would it ever be possible to have any sort of rational agreement again?

It's not. Every part of me knows it now, even the diplomaticl parts of me know that there can be nothing but mutually assured destruction with Glory of War. My people cry out for nothing less. I nearly lost the throne of Spain for being too reasonable with the enemy. My people hate them that much.

Just know, Glory of War, that every laughing, insulting, arrogant, blaming, snotty, underhanded, wretched post that your snide little fingers have written has been read by my people. And it has created a fire in them so fierce and so powerful that no peace and no surrender could ever be possible. Even a diplomat like myself and Arnelos cannot calm the flames.

There will always be war between us, and there will always be warweariness until Glory of War has suffered seven times the misery and abuse that Spain has suffered.

This is truely the definition of Spite and Malice. This is what happens when you "trash talk" a beaten and betrayed people.

--Togas

[Donegeal]

My take on Spite and Malice:

I am the founder and father of the Glory of War. In game, my house has had many negative dealings with RP steming all the way back to the writting trade disagreement. These negative feelings have stemed for thousands of years and has resulted in this current war. But it is all a game. I have no ill will towards any RP members. It is quiet the contrary. I have the utmost respect for Togas, Arnelos and all the others. I even have tremendous respect for my old nemisis, ET from the original SPDG. Him and I had banged heads constantly in that game. But the one thing I grew to understand, is that he knows the mechanics of the game as well as the coders of the game do. All the disagreements were game related and are behind me. I have even had a private conversation with a high ranking RP member telling him that I hold no true "Spite" or "Malice" towards him or any RP member. I hope that no RP member hold any grudges against me for "in game" matters.

[Hot_Enamel]

Originally posted by Arnelos
H_E,

No *major* spoilers here, but I don't think we're supposed to post stuff about the history of CDG, GCA, Apolyton, and CFC relations in a public board which people from GWT and Grenoule (just to name 2) frequently visit and anyone from any team can view. At least, not until we have contact with those teams in-game, that is.

Sorry ..



And nice to see Togas post again.
We all have our different syles of playing. It would be like playing AI if we all acted the same.

I like picking strong allies and sticking with them.
Arnelos likes to mix & match as needed.

Who is right ... who cares.
So long as we understand everything in this forum is all in-game heat.


And to conclude... there is a standing offer of a beer and a handshake, for any member of any team who decides to come down under for a visit to Oz.


This offer excludes New Zealanders, who drink way too much of our beer already and will be expected to BYO j/k

[GhengisFarb™]

What is this "strat" crap you are spewing? We are committed to killing GS because they have continually and repeatedly backstabbed the honorable Warmongers. They have continued to drag negotiations over treaties for hundreds of years! They are scum, useless for everything excepts to be cleansed from this world.

One of my favorite quotes from a Warmonger general:
"...the only good Chicken is a fried one......" - General E. N. Sain

[Shiber]

Bold words from an ex-dictator who is nowadays kept around only for entertainment. (yes, I know how inviting this sting is; go ahead and take your best shot! )

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Shiber

Bold words from an ex-dictator who is nowadays kept around only for entertainment. (yes, I know how inviting this sting is; go ahead and take your best shot! )

Actually, I'm now in charge of the Military. Did you not figure that from the "General E N Sain" comment? Or the beserker like slaughter of the four Roleplay cities?

[bongo]

Has anyone here installed some software lately? Did you ever read the EULA(End User License Agrrement)? Mostly it contains phrases like .....if this software causes your computer to explode and your sex-life to disappear MicroSh1t is not to blame...don't re-export to north-korea,Iran or sweden...Don't believe everything you read.....

Maybe the Demogames should have this EULA: People may behave differently in this forum than in RL or even in other poly-forums. All anger, hate or grudges(or any other negative feelings) are to be kept inside this forum and never re-exported to other forums, other sites or RL.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by bongo
All anger, hate or grudges(or any other negative feelings) are to be kept inside this forum and never re-exported to other forums, other sites or RL.

Too late.

[Panzer32]

are you feeling anger, hate, or grudges? Cuz I'm not!