Scotland cooperative game thread

Velociryx · August 25, 2003, 19:37

What follows is a photojournal of an experiment I'm trying....the discussion surrounding the decisions made here is being held elsewhere, but if anybody happens to stumble across this thread and feels the urge....by all means chime in!

The first of several screen shots to outline our position....first, a nice screenie of our homeland, with a highlight on our armies, and our sturdy General (based in Lothian)...nicely squared off against Beuchamp, in Northumberland....note that if we choose an aggressive stance in this war, Beuchamp will be our nemesis, and the immediate threat, as he guards the whole of lower England, and we lack a sufficient naval presence (our entire navy consists of five (5) warships, so ambhibious landings in force are....unlikely.

Velociryx · August 25, 2003, 19:41

Here's a shot of our government sliders (we get one move per ten-year...with other potential opportunities brought about via events), and another shot of the general situation, as the "camera" pans around:

Velociryx · August 25, 2003, 19:44

Another shot of the general situation, which also shows the position of the English King, in France, along with our able leader. An average politician and military man, but a gifted organizer.

Velociryx · August 25, 2003, 19:46

A shot detailing the religious situation in Scotland....pretty easy for us, given that all our holdings (all four of them!) are devoutly Catholic.

Velociryx · August 25, 2003, 19:47

What the world thinks of us....the good news is that only one nation hates us....the bad news is two-fold....that nation that hates us is bigger and stronger, and shares our island home, and even our allies are not particularly fond (neutral):

Velociryx · August 25, 2003, 19:52

And finally, a shot that underscores our major problem.....we cannot long afford to field the army we have....with no inflation, given the state of our current finances, we can field a force the size we currently have for six months, and that's it. With inflation, we can last longer, but of course, inflation brings with it problems of its own, not the least of which is the fact that EVERYTHING we do becomes increasingly more expensive.

Also, we have the following technology levels:
Land - 1 (ability to raise infantry and cavalry, and to construct basic (level 1) forts (all our provinces are already fortified to the best of our ability)
Naval - 1 (the ability to build galleys and warships)
Trade - 1 (the ability to place merchants)
Infrastructure - 1 (the ability to promote bailiffs to tax collectors) (note that until we promote tax collectors, we will only get 25% of our annualized census tax....not good, because that is the money from which our troop maintenance costs is drawn....fortunately, taking a single loan (200d) will allow us to place tax collectors everywhere (50d each)

Velociryx · August 26, 2003, 23:51

Initial decisions have been made, and the battle is joined! Beauchamp invades Lothian....

Velociryx · August 26, 2003, 23:53

A second loan is floated in April (the first, having been used to promote Tax Collectors in our lands), and Gunther's Band (mercenaries) are hired, turning the tide of battle!

Velociryx · August 26, 2003, 23:54

By May, it's our turn, and our victorious armies invade Northumberland....

Velociryx · August 26, 2003, 23:56

By June, we have routed the army of Beauchamp out of Northumberland and back to Yorkshire....our mercenaries lay in a siege of Newcastle (northumberland) while the Royal Scottish Army and the Army of the Highlands chase Beauchamp to Yorkshire, resulting in another victory for the home team!

ravagon · August 27, 2003, 21:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
....our mercenaries lay in a siege of Newcastle (northumberland) while the Royal Scottish Army and the Army of the Highlands chase Beauchamp to Yorkshire, resulting in another victory for the home team!

I think you mean a victory for the away team.

And I can't help but feel that you'd be much better off if you just faced reality, submitted to the rightfull rulers of the British Isles and gave up those provinces to England.

... Erm, nevermind. Wrong game...

It'll be interesting to see how you get out of the 400D hole yee've dug yerself in. Och! ...

*Starts hunting for that spell to burst bagpipes, blunt claymores and sink all landmasses north of Northumberland. *

Velociryx · August 27, 2003, 21:53

Hiya Rav!

And yes, it will be a tall order to scrape together 400d to repay both of those loans....my goal is to keep inflation at a bare minimum, but the alternative was to let Beauchump TRASH Scotland (which he surely would have done, if not for the timely arrival of Gunther and his boys), so....we shall see. My main goal is to get OUT of this war ahead of France, making a separate peace....preferably with Northumberland and money (which are my tentative goals....Northumberland cos it's so defensible, and makes striking into the heart of England in our NEXT engagement a much simpler proposition and money cos....I need it!

So....here's the text to bring you up to speed re: the specifics of the screenies above, and if you'd like to chime in and offer up recommendations on how to proceed....feel free! This is esentially me playing the game per the suggestions of my "advisory council" and the plan is to bring every major decision to the council to seek approval on it...sort of a Demo-EU game?

So....here's the first six months' data:

Play timespan: January 1st, 1419 - June 18, 1419:

Events of Note:

January 1st: Loan taken and Tax Collectors appointed in all our provinces. This will provide us a healthy boost to annual census tax income, beginning in January 1421.

Took steps to begin centralizing government power (production +2%, tech cost -2% from where it was)

Religion sliders: Max tolerance for Catholics, middling tolerance for Orthodox, no tolerance for Muslims (since there are no muslims nearby...this will mean that the muslims eventually hate us...no biggie).

Our naval squadron (5 warships) ordered from The Grampions to Lothian for possible supporting effort re: a siege of Newcastle (Northumberland).

The RSA (Royal Scottish Army) under Douglas holds in Lothian, and order the Army of the Highlands to do likewise in Strathclyde to see what the wiley Beauchamp will do.

Naval maint. slider set to 50% (naval upkeep drops from 0.5 per month to 0.3...saving us a little coin).

Army maint. slider kept at 100% (don't need the morale hit that comes with reducing upkeep: 11.6 per month....ouch!)

February:
Naval squadron arrives in the port of Lothian. All quiet on the front as our armies stare out across the border at the army of Beauchamp.

March 2nd: Beauchamp recieves reinforcements, bringing his total army size from 14,000 to just under 21,000. Leaving some 4500 in reserve in Northumberland, he marches on Lothian where Douglas is waiting.

March 10th: Douglas orders the Army of the Highlands from Strathclyde to Lothian to assist in repulsing Beauchamp.

March 18th: Before the Highlanders can arrive, Beauchamp slams into the army of Douglas with 12,417/3996 and begins decimating our forces.

By the 26nd, the Highlanders arrive and begin to turn the tide, but it is not enough. We will lose this fight if something drastic is not done, and if we lose this fight, we will have enormous difficulty ever invading Northumberland and beyond. Beauchamp's reserve force marches on Lothian.

April 1st: With our army panicking (and the army of Beauchamp breaking), we take a second loan, and spend 160 of our 200d to hire a mercenary band in Lothian (Gunther's band: 4000 Infantry/2000 Cavalry). Their timely arrival on the battlefield tips the scales, and the Army of Beauchamp is routed, but our own losses are grim:

Starting Strengths
RSA: 10,000/5,000
Highlanders: 9,000/1,000
Gunther: 4,000/2,000

Beauchamp: 12,417/3996

After the battle of lothian
RSA: 2486/3498
Highlanders: 6966/594
Gunther: 3897/1968

Beauchamp: 4079/2329

Losses
Scotland 11,591 (9651 Infantry/ 1940 Cavalry)
England 10,005 (8392 Infantry/ 1613 Cavalry)

A horrible, bloody battle for both sides.

April 3rd: Gunther strikes out immediately toward Northumberland, while Douglas and the Highlanders brace to recieve Beauchamp's reserve.

April 16th: The reserve force is eaten for breakfast. All 4518 English Infantry are lost, and our own forces suffer a total of: 77/44 losses. A huge, huge win.

By May 1st, the RSA and the army of the Highlands are marching to assist Gunther in Northumberland....as it turns out, our mercenary force needs scant assistance, and meets a reeling Beauchamp on the field (May 20th), handing him a second defeat, and laying siege to Newcastle (Northumberland).

The RSA and the Army of the Highlands march through Northumberland, chasing after the disspirited Army of Beauchamp, which is retreating toward Yorkshire.

June 13th: RSA and the Highlanders catch Beauchamp in Yorkshire and defeat him again, nearly destroying the once fearsome army. Our own forces are battered by these maneuvers, with Gunther's band suffering attrition damage as the others passed through.

As of June 18th, the armies look like this:

Gunther's band (laying siege to Newcastle, in Northumberland): 3138/1828 (need 5k to maintain a siege...not quite enough)

The Royal Scottish Army (under Douglas): 1892/3397 (currently in Yorkshire)

The Army of the Highlands: 6374/475 (also currently in Yorkshire)

The Army of Beauchamp: 840/1681 (in Yorkshire, retreating toward Lancashire)

So....at this point, the pressing concerns are:

* We need to reinforce Gunther's siege of Newcastle, as he lacks the manpower to maintain it. Options here would be to send either the Army of the Highlands or the RSA back to Northumberland, or to recruit 1,000 infantry (cost of 9d....we have 77d currently)....if we opt for that, it'll take 3 months to train the infantry, and the better part of a month to get them to the siege site....during that time, no progress will be made on the siege.

* The walls of York are weak (1), having taken a bit of a pounding during our battle there....we could leave the army of the Highlands there, and detach some men from it to go back to Northumberland....we would have JUST ENOUGH men to maintain both sieges that way, and this would free up Douglas to persue the defeated Beauchamp to Lancashire....

The problem is that even tho York's walls are surprisingly weakened, it's not a province we'll likely want to keep in this war, however, it's capture would give us a strong bargaining chip for money....which we desperately need, on account of having floated two loans....

So...stay in Yorkshire, or move in force to Lancashire, which is much more attractive to us from an acquisition standpoint?

Also, there remains the question of whether or not to haul out the naval squadron and risk drawing fire from the English fleet. If we do so, we could shorten the siege of Newcastle by several months....we could also lose warships we have no funds to replace.

Right now, we have a "warscore" of +5%, and this will increase dramatically as we capture provinces....that score merely reflects how we have fared in open battle, compared to the English....in other words, we've won five engagements, and they've won zipolah! (four actually...not sure where the extra point came from...total destruction of an enemy force, perhaps?)

Total losses have been devastating for both sides, with Scotland losing 13,896 in six months, and the English losing 19,009. Our total combat strenght (counting all three armies) is 11,404 infantry, 5700 cavalry (max supportable amount has increased to 10,000, current army size is 17,104, so we're still well above that limit).

The army of Beauchamp is the only English force we can see on the island, so for the moment, at least, we appear to be firmly in control....but, our ranks have thinned considerably, and we have scant funds for additional troops....

-=Vel=-

Velociryx · August 27, 2003, 23:01

Per some PM'd advice from the council, I have played slightly more than another year, and now, we are truly at a crossroads...here's the scoop!

Play Period: June 18, 1419 - September 1st, 1420:

July 1st - Douglas marches to Lancashire, following the shattered army of Beauchamp. The Army of the Highlands creates a "Yorkshire Regiment" from its own ranks, then marches a whopping 791/59 to Northumberland to assist Gunther's siege there.

July 21st - The Army of Beauchamp is destroyed to a man, and the English General's head is posted on a pike at the head of the Army of Douglas....further, Douglas has sufficient numbers remaining in his force to initiate a siege of Lancashire!

With three sieges in progress, and no English troops in sight, we reduce our military maintenance to 50% and settle in to our sieges.

August 1st: 81d banked, Stability has returned to max (+3), and we raise war taxes (increase in war weariness).

August 13th: We tentatively pull our naval squadron out of Lothian to assist the siege of Northumberland.

August 19th: The squadron is pounced on by 17 English warships....we beat a hasty retreat to the port before any of our ships are lost, and do not pull them out again.

September:
State of our sieges is:

Northumberland (3)
Yorkshire (1)
Lancashire (1)

December 22nd: Lancashire is captured from the English dogs!

OoO

January, 1420 - The Army of Douglas (RSA) marches to liberate our Welsh cousins

Northumberland siege (1)
Yorkshire siege (-5)

My march, Wales is under the gun (3 - no progress), and we have improvement on the Northumberland siege (-3), and by May, Northumberland is captured.

June, England offers us a paltry 145d for peace (no territory) which we MUST decline. A counter-offer, including Northumberland, reveals that after our rejection of their peace plan, they promptly emptied their treasury.

July - Gunther advances to Midlands unopposed.

August 1st - Yorkshire captured and the Yorkshire regiment advances to Lincoln. Our war-score is now a healthy 26%! Sadly, it appears that English coffers are still quite empty. The good news is that our treasure has inched higher (94d) - almost half a loan! War Taxes raised!

September 1st: We have 3 sieges initiated once more (Wales: -4, walls breeched), Midlands (1), and Lincoln (1).

In France, England annexed Orleanes, but have lost control of that province to France, and the English armies are sadly outnumbered. It is no secret that England will be seeking a hasty exit from this war, and if we want to control our own destiny where peace is concerned, we must act soon.

Without much in the English treasury, however, our plan of using English gold to pay our massive debts no longer seems viable, so....a decision:

Do we try for peace now, opting for at least one new territory, and keep minting coin to raise money to pay at least one of our loans off, or do we fight on, hoping that England does not cheese their way to a cheaply bought peace with France, leaving us with nothing....

-=Vel=-

Velociryx · August 27, 2003, 23:03

snapshot of the war in France....

ravagon · August 27, 2003, 23:46

Oy.

My take (for what its worth - I'm still on 1.06 having started several other games before finishing with England and not wanting to throw them away I stuck with it) is that England is probably a little behind, (due to army losses) pointswise, in Europe as that annexation would've cost a bit.
OTOH though, they're sieging a French province, don't appear to have lost control of any of their own, and still have a significant army. On top of that the French army that outnumbers them 2:1 seems to be heading to Burgundy and hence attrition when they all show up at once.

I'd try for another peace deal as soon as Wales falls. That should give you 30%+ even though Wales is just a colony at this stage. Then you could probably try another offer for Northumberland + cash with a 10%+ margin so they take the stability hit if they refuse ...
I wouldn't think you'd want more than Northumberland in this round as it'd only split your resources trying to defend both of em.

Btw, not wanting to douse the fire any, but whats the penalty for bankruptcy in 1.07?

[PS: In case I haven't mentioned it, yet again, lately, you type heinously quickly!

]

Velociryx · August 27, 2003, 23:55

Yep....keeping my practice at it up! (the typing, that is!)

As for the Bankrupcy penalty....IIRC it's +20% inflation and 5 years of morale penalty for the army...OUCH!

That sounds like a good plan, and a sound analysis of England's position....perhaps they're not quite ready to bail in the war yet, especially as you say, since France seems more interested in trouncing Burgundy.

Here's another idea, and for this one, I'll toss our our troop costs:

Infantry 7d on the thousand
Cavalry 16d on the thousand

Warships 59d for one

Galleys 11d (might not be a bad option for Scotland, to give us transport capacity on the cheap)

One thing that can boost our money intake would be if we raised 1k cav in Lothian and send them on a pillaging mission through the English provinces we've not touched yet, or not touched in a while (per that latest screenie, it seems that Northumberland and Lancashire are both ripe for pillage.

Training time is ~4 months for cav and it'd take a month to make Northumberland, then they'd be good for 2 provinces a month....they could easily pay for themselves via the pillage income--already checked our armies laying siege, and sadly we lack excess manpower in any of our siege groups to pull off some guys for pillage work.

The potential drawback is that we're already above our max supportable troop limit, and if we see peace made, then we have an extra 1k of cav to pay for, and no means of making them a money machine for us.

Your thoughts on that, good sir?

-=Vel=-

EDIT: If we go the "pillage our way to wealth" plan, then we'll likely need to delay an offer of peace to England....I do not believe that Wales will hold out till the end of the year, and we'd need to give our pillage force ~6 months to make their rounds, which puts us to approximately June of next year before we would want to make an offer of peace....that might be pushing the envelope slightly....don't know.

Velociryx · August 28, 2003, 00:08

Another option along those same lines would be to use the Army of Douglas (currently in Wales) for pillaging after the siege concludes there. He'd prolly be ready for such use around or before we could train a new cavalry garrison....could split off his infantry and take the cav only for speed, make the rounds, marching the infantry contingent to the English capitol to hold, and wind up with the cav arriving there after riding thru the other English lands, to lay in a siege.

If we wanted to, once either Gunther or the Yorkshire regiment finished their sieges, they could backtrack thru Lancashire and Northumberland to pillage there, before advancing to their next siege point....gotta think in terms of coin with those loan due dates looming on the horizon....

-=Vel=-

ravagon · August 28, 2003, 00:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
One thing that can boost our money intake would be if we raised 1k cav in Lothian and send them on a pillaging mission through the English provinces we've not touched yet, or not touched in a while (per that latest screenie, it seems that Northumberland and Lancashire are both ripe for pillage.

Training time is ~4 months for cav and it'd take a month to make Northumberland, then they'd be good for 2 provinces a month....they could easily pay for themselves via the pillage income--already checked our armies laying siege, and sadly we lack excess manpower in any of our siege groups to pull off some guys for pillage work.

The potential drawback is that we're already above our max supportable troop limit, and if we see peace made, then we have an extra 1k of cav to pay for, and no means of making them a money machine for us.

Your thoughts on that, good sir?

I wouldn't go raising any new force unless you absolutely have to. Not at this stage anyway. A 4 month period to rear cav sounds like far too much. The war could've been over by a couple by the time they arrive. If necessary you could set your other sieging forces to cover instead and break them up into raiding bands.
I don't imagine you're planning on continuing the war for long enough to actually win those provinces ... ?

Heh. I didn't realise you got the inflation hit along with the morale penalty (which, by and large, shouldn't really matter as long as you don't go picking fights before the next round with England).

Velociryx · August 28, 2003, 07:58

Update!

Played thru to November, and we now have a SERIOUS peace offer tabled by the English....I shall let the screen shot speak for itself....a good offer, beacuse one of the provinces in question shares our cultural heritage....

We have not, however, concluded the siege of Wales, and so no pillage work has been done.

Velociryx · August 28, 2003, 08:03

This is good for us because it sets up a possible expansion against the Irish....with Meath as a base to operate from, we could swing the naval squadron around, and plant a worthy force in Eire (with whom we have a standing CB, because we have shields on the whole of their island)...three of their provinces are unfortified, and so we could grab them swiftly and easily.....continuing our war with THEM, and gain money via pillaging there, plus, we'd have a 5-year window of peace with the English (at which time, hopefully, our two loans will have been paid in full).

The drawback to a war with the Irish.....if we win--and I believe we could--we'd grab three unfortified provinces, which would mean that an enormous amount of effort would have to go into constructing fortifications there, and it is doubtful that we could accomplish both that AND the repayment of our loans before the English decided to go another round with us....so we'd HAVE to garrison the Emerald Isle to retake our easy-picking provinces....that might spread us a bit thin in the face of an extremely angry England....

-=Vel=-

Maniac · August 28, 2003, 10:39

Go for it!

Velociryx · August 28, 2003, 11:21

I dunno....the more I think on it, the more my opinion would be to wait a bit longer yet....not that the offer isn't a good one...it certainly is! However, by waiting, we further increase our war score (wales is now -5....won't hold out long), and we can pick up some extra money by pillaging.....an EXCELLENT suggestion that was posed was to wait till after Douglas finished up in Wales, then split his force into its infantry/cavalry components, march the infantry thru Lancashire and Northumberland, then south to Anglia, while the cavalry command under Douglas himself sweeps through southern England, pillaging as he goes, and finally meeting the infantry in the English capitol for a siege there....that gives us some badly needed money without ending either of our other two sieges--which, when concluded, will give us an even MORE impressive war score.

However, at this stage of the game, the longer we slug it out, the more likely we are to get peace dictated to us by the French....which could leave us with nothing.

I will abide by the wishes of the council, however...

-=Vel=-

Nikolai · August 28, 2003, 11:59

I agree with your view, Velociryx.

Build up your powerbase and forces, untill the truce is over! Then...

Velociryx · August 28, 2003, 12:03

So, that's one vote against accepting the offered peace....

Maniac · August 28, 2003, 17:26

Quote:

I dunno....the more I think on it, the more my opinion would be to wait a bit longer yet....

Whatever. Then don't go for it!

Quote:

Training time is ~4 months for cav and it'd take a month to make Northumberland, then they'd be good for 2 provinces a month....

An enemy army has to be present in a province at the end of the month to pillage it. So only province per month.
Also, don't forget to put yor tax slider at max while pillaging!

Btw, where's the main discussion thread for this game?

Velociryx · August 28, 2003, 17:41

I'm...actually shifting the main discussion to here, so chime in!

-=Vel=-

Velociryx · August 28, 2003, 17:55

Thus far (and I'll be playing a bit further when I return home this evening), it appears that we will reject the offer of peace for Meath and Northumberland and continue the fighting, with the goal of concluding the siege of Wales, and then sending Douglas to pillage (at the rate of one province per month--though we can still do some faster than that via leaving covering forces with the cav as they march-- and having Douglas end his march through lower England in Anglia to take up a siege there, being joined by the infantry under his command as they swing through the northern non-pillaged provinces and then south.

Once we have initiated a siege at Anglia, we shall take stock of the situation and see what peace might be arranged--and how our treasury is looking--note to self: max treasury slider! (I think it's already there so we're not hemmoraging money, but will double check!)

I shall check back here before playing through, to see if anyone has objections to this course, and if not, then I will report back when I reach the point described above.

-=Vel=-

ravagon · August 28, 2003, 21:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx

The drawback to a war with the Irish.....if we win--and I believe we could--we'd grab three unfortified provinces, which would mean that an enormous amount of effort would have to go into constructing fortifications there, and it is doubtful that we could accomplish both that AND the repayment of our loans before the English decided to go another round with us....so we'd HAVE to garrison the Emerald Isle to retake our easy-picking provinces....that might spread us a bit thin in the face of an extremely angry England....

-=Vel=-

Would you actually have to fortify those provinces though?
The big advantage of having no fortifications is that you can often pull off a supply trap whereby an enemy force is cut off very quickly.
Additionally, if you did have Meath as a staging point - could you try a force-vassalization of Ireland instead of actually gaining those provinces (I'm not entirely sure of the conditions needed to vassalize though - even in 1.06)?
You wouldn't miss out on too much income either with the 30% loss from not having a land connection to your capital in addition to the higher tech costs from a larger number of provinces.
Much better to take only 50% of their income and no tech "penalty" IMHO.

Add to this the benefit of splitting an English counterattack between Northumberland and Meath (which you wouldn't really be able to defend but then again Meath isn't really worth that much as far as war score goes) and you have the makings of a significant advantage.

Q: How does the battle fare in France?
If you're racking up the points against England then so are the French as the head of your alliance (although I'm still not quite sure how that equation works either).

Velociryx · August 28, 2003, 21:16

Update thus far:

All did NOT go according to design. On January 28th, 1421, the English made their peace with France, which saw Orleanes and Caux fall into French hands, but our French masters were generous, and got Northumberland and Lancashire for us. These are two provinces which we had CB shields on, and so there is no revolt risk....although they are off-culture, they are still among the more valuable provinces under our control, and this boon sees our Kingdom grow by an impressive 50%. I would have preferred some monitary gain, over the second province, but alas, it was not meant to be. We have some time yet before our loans are due, and I have no doubt in my mind that we will NOT be able to pay them both off. For the time being, I am keeping with a heavy minting policy, and even at that, we are losing 0.6d per month.

I promoted Tax Collectors in our two newly gained provinces in the hope that once those appointments are made, the increase to our economy will be sufficient at least to allow us to break even each month, and perhaps see a slight gain. Nonetheless, the majority of our annual increase in ducats will come from the annual census tax, and my goal is to preserve as much of our income as possible.

Once the TC appointments are completed, I'll see how that impacts the total number of troops we can support (10k at present)....in order to save money, we will probably have to disband some segment of the army....Infantry, no doubt, and no doubt from the ranks of Gunther's mercenary band....given the current situation, I think it would be unwise to stage an attack against Eire, although their allies are all land-locked german minors and Navarra, and would pose us no threat. Since we do not have Meath as a base, however, and given the scant naval presence we have--with no funds whatsoever to increase it, we could only stage a one-point landing, which would likely get us killed, and not much else.

So....we're stuck....for now.

Velociryx · August 28, 2003, 21:18

Hmmm....that's a very good point, Master Rav....and to that end, I shall swing the Scottish naval squadron 'round the Emerald Isle and take shots of the conditions there....will post those shortly, to see if you are in favor of an invasion of Eire....

-=Vel=-