Emperor Games: how to improve your skills

[ToeTruck]

Originally posted by Arrian
Well, to be fair, your buildling was set up by the early conquest of 2 other civilizations. Like you and many others, I destroy so that I may create.

Very noble of you, Arrian. I'll remember that.

- TT

[ToeTruck]

I'm not raising this subject to be obnoxious, but instead because many people treat gold like it is part of the victory equation. As I see it, gold is a resource to be used up in developing your cities. At the end of the game, it doesn't count for squat.

In this game, I have just now switched to Democracy and am getting ready to build Theory of Evolution. But, I find myself with 6000+ gold that I have not used appropriately. That represents plenty of missed opportunities.

I figure a good builder doesn't need more than 1000 or so gold on hand for purchasing Luxuries and the occasional Coal or Aluminum. The rest should be spent developing your cities. Once every city has every improvement, then you can start amassing gold.

Next time I post, I'll have less than 1000 gold. I promise.

When you're behind, however, it's another story. You had better have the gold needed to purchase or steal techs. In those cases, 10000 or even 20000 might not be enough.

- TT

[Arrian]

As I see it, gold is a resource to be used up in developing your cities. At the end of the game, it doesn't count for squat.

I absolutely agree. I do tend to keep a couple of thousand in reserve if possible, though. Things can get surprisingly tight if a civ you're trading with declares war on you and you lose a luxury or two & a bunch of gpt income from deals. Plus the costs of fighting a war (usually rushbuilding improvements in forward cities, like walls/barracks/harbor/temple - my typical build order when I plant a city in hostile territory as an invasion beachead).

When I play Commercial civs and things go well for me, I often end up filthy rich. Some of that is a result of playing on Monarch, and since I intend to play more on Emp, I may not find myself with excess cash lying around. But I've ended games as Rome with well over $10K, despite rushbuilding tons of improvements and maintaining a large army.

In my current game (Emp, China), I think I have a little over 1k gold. I'm not commercial, I've got a big army, and I'm researching a 4-5 turn pace in the Modern Age, with 10% luxury spending on. Hence, I'm barely breaking even. Rushbuilds in newly captured towns have dropped me from ~2000g to more like ~1200.

-Arrian

[Master Zen]

Sometimes I find it rather easier to be rich on Emperor than on Monarch. Perhaps because I am more used to the tech pace of Emperor I usually find my opponents hopelessly behind in techs and short of cash in Monarch. On the other hand on Emperor there is usually no overall tech leader in my games until the early industrial era and during the medieval period there's a lot of trading going on to the point that once I get in the lead I can usually get very juicy deals from other rich civs for my techs.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by ToeTruck
Once every city has every improvement, then you can start amassing gold.

I don't think it's necessary to build every improvement. What's the point of building more universities when you're already researching a tech every 4 turns? What's the point of building cathedrals if you got every luxury in the world, got JS Bach's and a generous slider? Decisions like improvement building are very game-dependent and one must know when a certain improvement is a necessity and not. Each improvement has an opportunity cost of not having built something else, and depending on the game situation and your overall victory objective can you decide whether a certain improvement (even once you're all-powerful) is worth it or not.

My 2 cents

[ToeTruck]

Originally posted by Master Zen
I don't think it's necessary to build every improvement.

I agree entirely, Master Zen.

My point simply was that before you start piling up the gold consider spending it on more useful things. I used city improvements as my example; I could just as easily have said "Luxuries" or "Rights of Passage Agreements" or "Embassies" or whatever. The last two are weak examples, but you get the point: in Civ3, money is a "use it or lose it" resource.

- TT

[ToeTruck]

Originally posted by Master Zen
Sometimes I find it rather easier to be rich on Emperor than on Monarch. Perhaps because I am more used to the tech pace of Emperor I usually find my opponents hopelessly behind in techs and short of cash in Monarch. On the other hand on Emperor there is usually no overall tech leader in my games until the early industrial era and during the medieval period there's a lot of trading going on to the point that once I get in the lead I can usually get very juicy deals from other rich civs for my techs.

That has been my experience as well. It's kind of like under Monarch, you never quite reach critical mass.

Once you get used to the pace of Emperor (in terms of growth rate, tech rate, and building rate), the game just sort of flows.

- TT

[Theseus]

Damn...

My last several games have been HARD (AU 402, 208 and 209).

I remember the days of UP, of a gold cornucopia, of GWs at one's desire...

/me wipes a tear.

[ToeTruck]

AU208 was a killer; it totally ate my lunch.

- TT

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by ToeTruck
AU208 was a killer; it totally ate my lunch.

- TT

Almost everyone did. I finished off Rome, Iroquois, and the English, but got my butt handed to me by the combined efforts of the other four civs.

[Mountain Sage]

Originally posted by ToeTruck
Sometimes I think playing builder at all in Civ3 is heretical enough without all you warmongers around.
- TT

That makes at least two us us.
Now, is two enough for a club or just more fuel for the bonefire?

[Mountain Sage]

690AD
I kept 8 Horsemen to be updated to cavalry as mobile reserve; everything else has been disbanded.
Got Astronomy, Education, Printing Press and Theology.
All contacts have been made, with embassies (that's why I only have 600 gold left).
I have a 2 techs lead (Printing Press+Astronomy). Some have Chivalry (I won't buy it).
Copernicus Obs in 15 turns.
You can see the pace of conquest (and building order) from south to north, from cathedral to temple (keep in mind that I conquered the Arabs later than TT).

[Mountain Sage]

1240AD
I started on Musketman as future defence in coastal cities 93 so far).
I got Chemistry, Economics, Theory of Gravity, Magnetism. Metallurgy in 3 rds, then I am in the Industrial Ages. 3 techs advance; the English have Free Artistry instead.
Wonders captured: Pyramids, Colossus, GLibrary, GLighthouse, GWall.
Wonders built: Sistine, Copernicus, Smith.

[Mountain Sage]

Gold: I have less gold than TT but I am researching at 80%. People seem happy. Democracy is just fine.

[ToeTruck]

It's 1450AD and I'm seven turns away from Modern Times. Since I've pre-loaded Athens building the Palace (the Palace has been moved to Corinth BTW), I could take a 1485AD Diplo victory with Athens building the United Nations the turn Fission is discovered. That would be cool.

But I'm much more inclined to Launch, plus Mountain Sage might have disabled Diplo Victory to thwart people like me.

So, instead I've set myself up for a quick space race. Here's the zoom map:


Couple of things of importance:
1) Ephesus (Forbidden Palance) and Cornith (Palace) are both producing 100+ shields. Once you start the space race, you need at least two cities producing 80+ shields per turn.

2) Chengdu, Knossus, Sparta, and Athens are supporting cities producing somewhere between 40 and 80 shields. I'd like to get at least one of these to produce 80+ shields.

More soon.

- TT

[ToeTruck]

The best thing a builder can do is nurture good relations with his rivals. I've been selling techs and resources and even giving them away from time to time.

I haven't figured out how Gracious, Polite, and ROP all work together to prevent the AI from attacking, but I do know that I've never been attacked when my Foreign Advisor screen looks like this:



My advice to Monarch players trying to improve your game is: Don't hold onto techs. Trade them away as quickly as you get them; a tech lead only makes your rivals envious.

- TT

[vmxa1]

I can hardly believe you got Bismark to smile this late in a game, nice job. Way beyond my patience and temperment.

[Arrian]

Agreed. Bismarck almost always hates me. The last time he didn't hate me (polite), he was nevertheless the first AI civ to drop off that lone Cavalry unit to try and sneak attack me. Bismarck is a *****.

Wonders captured: Pyramids, Colossus, GLibrary, GLighthouse, GWall

That's quite a list.

-Arrian

[ToeTruck]

It's 1520AD, and I just built the United Nations:


Since all my rivals are still fat and happy, I could take the Diplo Victory and call it a game. No shame there, but I'd kinda like to launch.

Couple of things to note:

1) I miscalculated a couple of posts ago; I forgot exactly how big the UN really is. It takes a ton of shields and is might hard to pre-load.

2) My Scientific freebie was Fission which was a big bonus and Germany's freebie was Ecology. That's that first time I've ever had to research Rocketry while playing Scientific. Yea PTW!

3) Vmxa1 is right; I really should be posting "how to do it" suggestions instead of snapshots.

BTW - I decided not to hold a vote.

- TT

[Mountain Sage]

1695 AD
I am going (as for the past x-hundred years) for a buider's victory. Not much to tell you 'how', except that it's just 'build, build, build', 'diplomacy, diplomacy, diplomacy' and 'trade, trede, trade' (there are threads enough about these topics).
I hit the Modern Times with Rocketry and started to research Ecology in 7 rounds at -23 gold/turn. I have now a 3-lead in techs. Military: 17 tanks (1 in each city) and 17 subs (advanced scouts).
There are only 4 other civs left: France, Carthage, England and Germany, all polite or gracious.
My treasury is now 17'800 gold, which I will spend by running reserach at 90%.
UN is in 7 turns, but I'll go for a space race, it's more fun!
(screenshot below).

1802 AD (no screenshot)
Synthetic Fibers in 6 turns. Got Rocketry, Space Flight, Fission, Nuclear Power, Laser.
Germany and France are at war with each other, as well as Germany against England and Carthage.
I still have my 3 techs lead. 13'000 gold left.

[Mountain Sage]

1842 AD
Game's over. One of my easiest wins on Emperor, but still a lot of fun.

[Arrian]

9 hours... wow.

Last time I won a game, it was 22 hours (standard map). My empire was huge, though, and I did a lot of fighting. That'll slow ya down.

-Arrian

[ToeTruck]

Here's my final DAR. I managed a Spaceship Launch in 1650 AD. I believe there were plenty of opportunities to optimize that date, but I'm pretty happy with the results.

My best "totally peaceful" builder games have led to launches around 1700AD so warring in the beginning gained me a few turns.

Here's the victory dialog box and the final status window:




And, here's the map the turn before I launched:


The first thing to notice is that I saved The Laser for last, had the other components built, and was pre-building the Party Lounge in Beijing.

You also might notice that none of my cities were over size 20 and I only had four or five of them anyhow.

And, notice that there isn't a single military unit on my island. Didn't need them. Whenever I accidentally built one, I disbanded it in a city for the shields. Otherwise, I switched everything to Wealth pretty early.

A couple of final stats:
- None of my cities were in the top five
- My score: 4027
- Next closest rival, France: 1606
- Alexander the Magnificent

That was a fun game. Thanks Mountain Sage!

- TT

[vmxa1]

Bravo, nice job and an excellent report.

[Mountain Sage]

Originally posted by ToeTruck

That was a fun game. Thanks Mountain Sage!

- TT

You're welcome. Your options:

- play the French game;
- wait for my latest game (if I survive!);
- post one of your own.

Now, who else wants to give it a try?

[ToeTruck]

MS,

Is there something we could do format-wise that would make this thread more accessible to emperor-newbies? I'd love to play another game (like your French post), but other than a series of DAR's, I'm not sure what to post.

Any thoughts?

- TT

[Killazer]

id be dead meat in most of my Emperor games if all ive had was 23 workers and a galley rofl

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by ToeTruck
MS,

Is there something we could do format-wise that would make this thread more accessible to emperor-newbies? I'd love to play another game (like your French post), but other than a series of DAR's, I'm not sure what to post.

Any thoughts?

- TT

I would like to see you do a detail DAR like you see in GOTM. That would be a very instructive report and an opportunity to see trading and relations done right.
I know I for one could use the guidance. My idea of trading is to check in once the mood stricks me and my relations are rarely better than furious after the middle ages get started.

[ToeTruck]

I haven't spent much time at the CivFanatics site other than downloading a game or two. How are DAR's done for their GOTM's? I'll probably take a peak to see for myself, but what do you like specifically about their format?

I know what you mean about diplomacy getting lost in most DAR's. I spend 30-40% of my time conducting diplomacy which I seldom record in my logs other than lame entries like:

3200BC: Contact with Babylon. Traded Alphabet for Ceremonial Burial plus 12 gold.

and

900BC: Made peace with the Russians. Got The Wheel, Masonry, Mysticism, and 45 gold in exchange.

Much more happens in Diplomacy that is *so* central to the game's development. I'll think about how to capture that.

Thanks for the idea vmxa1.

- TT

[Rhothaerill]

Great idea. I wrote a few detailed DARs for AU209 on how I went about certain things (before ultimately losing to a Sipahi rush ), but I didn't really include much on diplomacy. I'd be interested in hearing what anyone has to say about it.