Having a hard time liking Civ2...

[sboog]

I really wanted to like Civ2. I know Sid Meier is the father of all good strategy games - and that Bruce Shelley worked on Civ2.

For the last year I have played Age of Empires, and loved it. But lately I have thought it would be good to try Civ2 since it is such a classic.(And since Bruce Shelly was a part of both.)

I am having a hard time with it. I just can't figure out what is going on from the tutorial. The icon of the soldier blinks and I can move him with the numbered keys - left or right or up or down - but it seems to do nothing. What am I moving him to or for?

And it says "press enter" that my turn is over - well, I press it, and nothing happens.

I have no idea what is going on or what the goal is.

In Age of Empires, you can create your villagers and watch them run to forage the berry bushes. You can create docks and watch the fishing boats cast their nets and hear the waves. And you create ax men, priests, stone throwers, chariot archers, etc.

I know there must be a lot of depth in Civ2, that is why I am sticking with it.

But are there just a few basic ABC's of the game play that would help me? I'm not talking about strategy or tons of information. Just a little simple "how to" to help me get beyond this impasse. I really do want to like the game.

sboog

[finbar]

Hmmmm. What a damn good question. It's not often we get asked something so basic. I'd suggest a visit to the Great Library thread which sits permanently near the top of the threads on the Strategy forum. It contains hints and tips and advice on everything for beginners through to advanced levels of play.

That aside, your soldier unit can be used for one of three purposes: (a) defending a city from within it; (b) attacking an enemy unit; (c) exploring the darkness of the surrounding terrain, opening it up for expansion. The choice, of course, depends entirely on where you're currently at in the game.

------------------
Founder, ACS Pedantry Institute
Founder, ACS Gourmet Recipe Exchange
Horse and Hydey Wrangler
Mono Rules!
#33984591

[Winston]

To address your point of having pressed Enter without anything apparently happening, this is because you're in the initial stages of the game where you have only one or a few units to order around, and so nothing much happens on each turn.

A suggestion would be to start a new game and choose the option "Accelerated startup" under the Customized rules-screen. This way, the game starts a couple of centuries down the line, and you'll see that you have more units, one or two cities laid down, and more of the map revealed to you - perhaps you've even made contact with other civilizations. You will have made some scientific discoveries as well, enabling you to see some of the implications this will have had on your game.

Also, as finbar suggested, The Great Library thread in the Strategy forum makes for some good reading, eventhough it relates more to the player who's got a few games under his cap - but you'll get there I'm sure!

Keep going. Lots of fun awaits you just around the corner!

[ColdWizard]

read the manual, its describes everything and is the easiest (IMHO) way to learn the game

[Gorgo the Magnificent]

Great suggestion ColdWizard! I'm sure that's just what sboog was hoping a helpful soul would say! 'Read the manual'... Brilliant! Man, what would we do without you!

[Gorgo the Magnificent]

sboog - don't feel bad. I have the exact same questions as you - I really wanted to enjoy this game. But already my attention span is taking me elsewhere. I tried Alpha Centauri before this, but it was more confusing than Civ II (I know, hard to believe). Since I am really wanting to get into a new genre of game (I am mostly into RPG's and adventure). And I am also tired of spending big bucks on games, I am trying to enjoy the older, cheaper classics. I think I will try Dungeon Keeper II next. I am also going to re-purchase Myth II: Soulblighter - it was the very 1st game I ever bought for my computer, but didn't finish it.

Anyway, Civ II came highly recommended (just read the reviews at Amazon), but I could just not find the addictiveness that so many others rave about.

Look around for Scouse Gits - he'll help you out!

[Smash]

You aren't gonna see much when you press enter.No fishing boats casting nets,no workers gathering berries.It is all conceptual.You might see barbarians or other civilization's units later.They may even attack or intiate a diplomatic session but no fancy graphics.

The game is very large in concept.Don't expect to know much for awhile.Thats the fun.

When you get stuck,check civlopedia and/or come here.

Keep expanding and exploring.More cities and clear the "black"

Each city has citizens.These citizens work the surrounding land.Conceptually.They produce A.sheilds B.food and C.trade arrows.
A.Sheilds are what you build stuff with.ie-City A produces 5 sheilds.It will take 2 turns to build a 10 sheild warrior.

B.Food is used to feed the citizens and any settlers that are supported by that city.Any extra food beyond that demand is "stored" in the foodbox.When that foodbox is filled,your city grows larger by 1 citizen icon.This icon represents 1000s of people.

C.Trade Arrows are what is used when you set your tax,science and luxury rates.The more arrows you produce,the more you can assign to any or all of the 3 tax categories.

Research Monarchy ASAP.Ceremonial Burial,Code of Laws and Alphabet are required before it can researched.You'll have to acquire at least 1 non Monarchy pre-requisit along the way.When you get it,hold a revolution and switch governments.

You'll see a difference in gold,science and production.You should begin to understand how and why science research works and the value of new advances.Each new government form produces different amounts of resources and science.

Units have individual characteristics and abilities.Some are good for defending while others are better for attacking.Settlers improve the land and build new cities.Caravans deliver goods for profit to other cities and aid in construction of wonders.Diplomats have a range of tasks they can perform.Some units move 1 square while others move 2 or 3.Ships are for the sea and can carry units to other lands for settling,exploring and military campaigns.

You have 3 main areas to consider:
Military-defend your cities and/or take cities from others
Science-new technologies allow better units,city improvements and wonders of the world to be built.
Economics-good old fashioned cash.You can buy stuff with it.Units and city improvements can be rushed by buying up what is left in the sheild box.


Wonders of the World have different effects on your civilization.They are good and you should build some at some point.Consult civolpedia for their effects,cost to build and the technologies required for them to become available.
Beginners will find The Great Library and The Hanging Gardens quite useful.Then again,so will experienced players
Possibly The Great Wall also.


Thats a tiny scratch of the surface.

There are no stupid questions.

[Scouse Gits]

Thanks for the vote of confidence Gorgo - but this time Smash well and truly beat me to it -- very good advice above -- do follow it -- do keep playing this wonderful game -- just look at all we sad people with no life outside Civ and posting at Apolyton -- there really must be something to the game -- Good civin'

------------------
Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[East Street Trader]

Good stuff from Smash, hope it helps you get started.

Will it be worth putting in the effort? Hard to say. I too enjoyed Age of Empires for a while - I too love the fishermen with their nets and all the rest of the splendid eye candy. But, in the end, the strategy and tactics are limited. Sure you must build a good economy and be economical with available resources, but that is not too tough. And the objective is very straightforward, armed forces strong enough to knock out the enemy. He's building up too but if you just grow quick enough and get at him when there is an imbalance of military force you'll win. (And, of coures, in real time it helps to have quick fingers!)

So where is the difference with the civ games?

The answer is that the enemy is much less of a sitting target. The game is constantly moving on - and on more than one front. If you concentrate too hard on building up your military strength you can't advance your science (and when your large army of archers and chariots arrive they meet musketeers or riflemen!); and to achieve faster scientific advance you may need to devote resources to exploration and to developing your land or your cities.

What this leads to is the need for a long term strategy which is then worked through with a wealth of tactical decisions as the game progresses.

And that's another major difference. A game of civ is a long game. You will certainly not complete it at a sitting and may finish up playing one game out over numerous sessions spread over a period of weeks.

The question whether it's going to prove worth it may be answerable by asking the questions will you find yourself wondering, once you've played one or two games, whether you could have done better by following some different approach and will you then get satisfaction out of starting a new game to test out that alternative? And are you up for spending the hours on working through all the tactical actions needed to take that new strategic idea through to a conclusion? If so I predict that you are heading for the addiction that afflicts many of us.

But if your enjoyment of computer games needs regular short term thrills, finding the hidden door, meeting the big boss, advancing your character to a new level, suddenly finding the screen full of colour and action, then probably this genre is not for you.

[sboog]

Thanks everyone for your good help. I printed all your messages out.

So today, I will study them and go back and dig in the manual. Then try to play the tutorial game again. Still have a lot of questions.

But on the "enter" problem. I press it and it keeps blinking until I press it fast 3 or 4 times in a row. Is that normal?

sboog

[Scouse Gits]

sboog - do you have a very fast machine? there is a small (roughly 4x4 pixel) square in the bottom ?left? hand corner of the right hand panel (just below and to the ?left? of the press enter to end turn - and that should cylce through the other game colours as the AI plays its turns - an alternative is to use the mouse to click on the rh panel (instead of using the enter key)

please feel free to ask any such questions - we all love this silly game and will certainly help a newbie become as addicted as we are ...

------------------
Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[Everyman]

I love the Age of Kings. It's an elegant, extremely well-designed real-time game and you can even learn a bit about medieval history as well. However, after completing the campaigns in both Age of Kings and Conquerors and developing my skills to the point where I can knock off 4 civs at hard level, I'm back to pushing Civ II units around the screen with my directional arrow keys.

You'd do well to hang in until you get the hang of Civilization II, as it's simply the greatest of all turn-based PC games.

One thing to bear in mind as you make the transition from AoE to CivII is that you should take your time when considering a move. In the opening moves you make crucial decisions -- where to explore, where to set up a city -- that will determine the eventual outcome of the game. There's no need for speed in Civ II, just take your time.

[Smash]

you probably need to go into FILE/GAME OPTIONS and set "wait at end of turn".

[sboog]

Everyman, you could win all the campaigns in AoK/TC on hard???? That is something I have not been able to do. Yet I love the game. Especially the oldest, AoE.

That said, part of winning in those games is speed. You got to research fast and act fast and produce. You got to get those resourses coming in and then you got to start pumping out those archers and boats.

At times I have longed for a little breather - when I could just take my time and enjoy the game. But if you spend too much time enjoying in AoE, you get smashed!

So it looks like in one respect, Civ2 may bring me the kind of game where I am not under time pressure. And that is one of the reasons I wanted to learn to play.

This is a great forum. Thanks to all for the encouragement.

sboog

[Dhalsim]

There are only two games I've ever played that are deep, deep and deeper still, CivII and Streetfighter 2.
I've played CivII for 2.5 years and am still learning, and played SF2 (in its many guises) for 8 years, and can still be shocked at the variety of styles available. These are games that you can 'BUST'. They're wild, they're made for the mind. I enjoy other games , occasionally, but allways come back to the best. I hope you beat the frustrating, bewildering start of civ2 to reap the rewards.

------------------
Yoga Flame

[sboog]

Smash, I tried setting the option to "wait at end of turn" and it does help.

Thanks.

sboog

[Smash]

many turns early in the game are like this.Press enter.Press enter.Its because you have no units out yet and nothing has been built.

[kyrie_asini]

I know what you mean... I played Warcraft (II) and Age of Empires first, and I am still getting used to the turns... If I hadn't had bcr3 helping me I don't know if I would have won my first game... Personally, I still like AoE a little better but I still am learning CivII, so I won't make a definite descision yet.

[Chronus]

Hi sboog,

I believe further up you had a post that said you would press Enter several times and nothing would happen. Try this ...

1) Turn the "Wait at end of turn" option back on.
2) Go open your city screen every time you hit the Enter key and take a look at what's going on. You'll notice your production and food boxes getting fuller. Try moving the "workers" around in the terrain map (within the city screen) and take note of the different results. Although this may not appear like much, it is one of the fundamental cores in understanding CIV 2.
3) Exit the city screen and go to your Science Advisor. You'll notice your research bar increasing each turn as well.

Sorry if this post sounds patronizing . . . I'm assuming that you truly thought nothing was happening when you clicked Enter.

Hang in there and happy gaming!

[sboog]

Not patronizing at all. Very helpful.

Sometimes the "press enter" sign keeps flashing until I press enter 3 or 4 times rapidly.

I'm sticking with it. There's got to be something magical about this game for everyone for years to love it so.

Right now I am trying to figure out all the stuff on the City Display. Haven't got it down just yet.

sboog

[Chris 62]

quote: Originally posted by sboog on 04-07-2001 06:12 PM Sometimes the "press enter" sign keeps flashing until I press enter 3 or 4 times rapidly.

Look at the year indicator at the right of the screen when this is blinking. Each time you hit end player turn, it should change years. The odds are you went through 3 or 4 turns, not that the end of turn wasn't working. In the early part of the game, nothing much is going on with the AI civs either, so the turns go quickly.


------------------
All knowledge begins with the phrase: I don't know.

[Laertes]

quote: Originally posted by sboog on 04-05-2001 07:39 PM I just can't figure out what is going on from the tutorial. The icon of the soldier blinks and I can move him with the numbered keys - left or right or up or down - but it seems to do nothing. What am I moving him to or for? sboog

Your first screen should when you start a game should show you a settler, not a soldier. You want to find a nice site to start a city (close to green fields, trees and hills with a square or two, and ideally a river, whales or silk in the vicinity).

Once you have found a nice site, all the advice Smash provided applies

[rwprice]

I've been thinking alot about this thread since it was started. In fact, a similar question prompted me to start the thread "How long did it take you to really understand Civ2?". My goal was to see if other people found the going a little tough in the beginning. I've been sticking with Civ2, but sometimes it's hard to escape the feeling that I'm just going through the motions as I cycle through all my many units.

Some people have mentioned reading the manual. I've done that, and it actually does help--I'd recommend it. Others have said that you need to play several games, and I'm thinking that that may be the key. So, I plan to stick with Civ2 and learn as much as I can, but I hope to feel the addiction that so many of you seem to share. I can tell that the game is incredibly deep, I just want to experience the enjoyment for myself.

[sboog]

I'm with you rwprice. I want to be able to have the experience of playing this beautiful, deep game.

But even with the manual in hand, I just can't seem to get it.

I can get my first city built. (No problem handling the Orders button.)

But then, I want to send a settler to produce something and all that seems to happen is I move him right or left and then if by chance on where I land, a box pops up and the tutorial says I can research something that will enable this or that. Now I see the value in that. But what I want to know is:
1 - What causes that box to pop up? Is it a certain unmarked square I land on?
2 - I can't see anything happening with my settler as far as producing food goes. For example, in AoE you can click on a villager and send him to chop wood, shore fish, build a dock, or pick berries - AND you can SEE him doing it.

I am embarrassed to display my blindness on all of this.

I very much want to like the game and be able to grow with it.

If only the manual had a simple pictorial guide - you know, "This is a settler" "Send him here he does this." Or "send him there and he does that." It's all fine about research and resources, but I just can't get the hang on HOW and WHERE TO MOVE the units to accomplish something.

sboog

[Smash]

ok.The pop up box is annoying and contains much bad advice.It is in FILE/GAME OPTIONS/tutorial help and instant advice.Thats what controls those.There will other important messages though.
Roads(R) can be built on any terrain cept ocean.You need to discover Bridge Building before you can build them on rivers.
Forts(F) can't be built until you discover Construction.
Irrigation(I) has different effects depending on the terrain.
Grass and Plains can have their food production increased by irrigating.The square must be next to a water source.ocean,river or another previously irrigated square.
If you press I on a forest square it will be "cut down" and turned to a plains square.
Mining(M) can be done on hills,mountains,desert and some specials to increase sheild output.If you mine(m) a grass or plains it will change to forest(reforestation)

These actions take differing amounts of turns to complete depending on the task and the terrain involved ie:its easier to build a road thru flatland than it is thru a mountain pass.

here is what to do:
start a game.
STOP
go to the top and open CIVLOPEDIA.
Go to Game Concepts section(not the manual)
here you will find the info you need.
Consult this CIVLOPEDIA any time you wonder about a city improvement,a technology,a unit,a wonder etc.You should see a list of categories:
Civilization Advances
City Improvements
Wonders of the World
Military units
Governments
Terrain Types
Game Concepts
Search

The City Screen
When you first build a city or later by clicking on it you get a pop up City Screen.Most of it is self explanatory.A very important part of it is the Resource Map

click

Here I have just founded a city.You see the city square producing 2 food icons,1 sheild amd 1 trade arrow.There is one square being "worked".It is a whale.It produces 2 food icons,2 sheilds and 2 trade arrows.That gives me a total of 4 food,3 sheilds and 3 trade arrows which at 60% science in despotism gives me 2 science beakers towards research.This is being generated each turn.

Now,if I move my mouse on to the "workers" on the whale and click it, they "disappear".I can then click on another square and "re-assign" them
click
In this picture I have "moved" my "workers" from the whale to a forest.Notice now it produces just 1 food icon and 2 sheilds.Now my total is 3 food,3 sheilds and 1 trade arrow which at 60% despo gives me 1 science beaker towards research.It will take twice as long to finish my first research...not good.

click

Now,in this picture I have once again "moved" my "worker" from the forest to an unsheilded grass square.That square only produces 2 food right now giving me a total of 4 food,1 sheild and 1 trade arrows.
If I build a road on that square it will produce a trade arrow.If I irrigate it it will produce more food icons-note-irrigation has no effect under the despotism government..another reason to get out of it ASAP.

So,I am best off placing that worker on the whale.That is obvious.Later as my city grows and I get more workers to control,I will need to manage things a little more.The game itself does not automatically place my workers on the best squares.I need to go into the resource map and "manage" my workers from time to time
.ie:if I have 2 sheilded grass squares and 1 has a road,I want to make sure my workers are on the roaded one.Or the irrigated one..or the mined gold square..or the irrigated wheat square etc...


>>>are you using the numeric keypad to move?
5 corresponds to the unit's position and you can move any direction 1,2,3,4,6,7,8,9

[This message has been edited by Smash (edited April 14, 2001).]

[Smash]

I feel like a drug pusher

C'mon,one little hit.Just try it....everybody is doing it...you're not chicken are you?

[Scouse Gits]

You're doing great Smash!

What are you - a Public Relations Consultant for Sid's Games?

--------------

SG(2)

[sboog]

Thanks, Smash. If that doesn't help, I don't know what will.

Will give it another good try tonight. Or better yet, on Easter Sunday.

sboog

[MattHiggs]

OMG, I love Civ 2, it's a game you can play again and again and never get bored! If only I could play it multiplayer

How could you not like Civ2?