September 5, 2003, 08:52
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#31
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Settler
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So that's why Blair is Bush's poodle.
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“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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September 5, 2003, 08:58
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#32
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OTF Moderator
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If he said, "I'm really sorry, I seem to have accidently spilt some water on you" we'd all be happy 'cos we're all (the majority of the public) basically too disinterested in what's really going on to care about anything much deeper than appearances.
I think the whole concept of being nice to people to get your way is called diplomacy or something.  It's not a very American way of doing things though.
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September 5, 2003, 10:11
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#33
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Deity
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Absolutely. Clinton was quite popular here because he understood how to say stuff to the international community, his international policies weren't really all that different to Bush's (pre 9/11).
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Clinton gave incorrect information about the US to Europe. For instance, he signed up to Kyoto knowing full well that in the foreseeable future it would not be ratified by the Senate. But Europe read it (rightly) that we're on board with the program.
Once Bush starts giving the correct information--that hell will freeze over before Kyoto is ratified--Europeans feel betrayed. But instead of being angry at the one who sold you that line of goods, you get angry at the person in front of you--Bush.
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I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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September 5, 2003, 10:16
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#34
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OTF Moderator
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Yeah, that's the example I had in mind when I said it.
The point is still valid that Bush has absolutely no idea how to talk to the rest of the international community.
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September 5, 2003, 10:42
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#35
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Emperor
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The Balkans are pretty much always up to no good unless someone is putting the smackdown on them.
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coming from someone who knows jackshit about the region... 
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September 5, 2003, 11:10
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#36
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Deity
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The point is still valid that Bush has absolutely no idea how to talk to the rest of the international community.
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I don't think that's true. He has been clear about what he was doing and why he was doing it. There is a high value in that. For instance, on Kyoto, knowing clearly that the US was opting out of the treaty and going more toward the basic science of climate change helped y'all plan accordingly.
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I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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September 5, 2003, 11:15
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#37
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Settler
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"going more toward the basic science of climate change" 
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“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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September 5, 2003, 11:20
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#38
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OTF Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally posted by DanS I don't think that's true. He has been clear about what he was doing and why he was doing it. There is a high value in that. For instance, on Kyoto, knowing clearly that the US was opting out of the treaty and going more toward the basic science of climate change helped y'all plan accordingly.
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You are still missing the point. It's not that WHAT he said was wrong it's HOW he said it that was bad.
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September 5, 2003, 11:23
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#39
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Deity
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I'm not missing the point at all. The way that he said it communicated clearly to y'all that the treaty was toast. It wasn't on his agenda. It might have pissed you off, but now you're under no illusions.
If you're going to argue this point, then give me a specific example that sticks in your mind of how he said it that could have been done more diplomatically.
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I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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September 5, 2003, 11:28
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#40
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Prince
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Bush makes those French knights in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" seem like skilled diplomats
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The enemy cannot push a button if you disable his hand.
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September 5, 2003, 11:29
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#41
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Emperor
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Combat Ingrid
Bush makes those French knights in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" seem like skilled diplomats
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damn "KANIGETTS!"
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September 5, 2003, 11:38
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#42
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OTF Moderator
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Urgh...
not sure I can be arsed trawling through news archives from 2 years ago to find quotes. Basically the tone from the White House changed from "let's work together to make the world better" to "we're going to make sure that Americas interests are protected and if that makes things worse for you then tough."
Now as you've said that isn't a change in policy but it makes it hard for politicians from other countries not to protest if their electorates are now going to percieve them as weak for not 'standing up' to America.
It's just the same in life, you get away with a lot more by being polite to people than you do if you are rude about it. If you turn up late for work and say, "Yeah, I was late so, what are you going to do about it?" in front of your boss he'll have no choice but to dicipline you. If you go and apologise you'll probably be Ok.
I know there is a strong feeling in the US that you don't need to be nice because you are so powerful but then you end up in situations like Iraq currently where no-one wants to help you (us), even though it would benefit them to do so because you've pissed them off so much in the past.
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September 5, 2003, 11:53
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#43
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Deity
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Well, I know it's frustrating. But if there aren't even any "old Europe" moments to hang your hat on, then how am I to know on what Bush needs to work? Sounds to me like Europe is punishing the messenger.
If it's any consolation, there is a subset of the American electorate that also didn't want to be told the truth about the issue and hates Bush because he was pretty clear about it.
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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September 5, 2003, 13:43
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#44
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Emperor
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Sava
coming from someone who knows jackshit about the region...
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comming from soeone who could not find his ass with both hands.
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From a 6th grader who readily adpated to internet culture: "Pay attention now, because your opinions suck"
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September 5, 2003, 13:57
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#45
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Emperor
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I suggest we arm europe with old rifles and tanks, give part of the troops grey pointy hats and zeppelins and the other part silly wide army pants and a fake moustaches, and then America can go on with it's bussines peacefully for some four or five years without Europe meddling in world important affairs
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September 5, 2003, 14:02
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#46
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King
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Bush's 'plain-talking' is just an inventive way to cover up his ineptness. I remember, at the start of the road map, his naivety and inexperience were being touted as bonuses; unlike Clinton, who was well-briefed and informed, George would not be derailed by squabbles over individual farms and so on. I, for one, thought it might actually work. Unsurprisingly, it failed.
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September 5, 2003, 14:02
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#47
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OTF Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally posted by DanS
Well, I know it's frustrating. But if there aren't even any "old Europe" moments to hang your hat on, then how am I to know on what Bush needs to work? Sounds to me like Europe is punishing the messenger.
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Well it's a combination of the complete lack of tact and diplomatic skills combined with policies that are far to the right of anything in mainstream European politics.
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September 5, 2003, 14:10
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#48
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Deity
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I think it's almost all about the policies. It's a natural human reaction to dislike hearing a view that is diametrically opposed to your own. Even moreso when you know that there's not going to be much opportunity for persuasion.
I don't like Schroeder or that French guy much because of it.
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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September 5, 2003, 14:12
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#49
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OTF Moderator
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It's both but yes, the policies are often scary and offensive (to European ears).
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September 5, 2003, 14:18
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#50
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Deity
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OK, so we're making some progress. I think we could probably agree on a good package of what those policies are. Kyoto, death penalty, ICJ, war with Iraq. All offensive to Europeans. All popular in the States.
Mostly, this offense isn't reciprocated, but there you are.
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I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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September 5, 2003, 14:21
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#51
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OTF Moderator
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That's a start. 
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September 5, 2003, 14:29
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#52
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Settler
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I'd see 4 things:
- extreme right wing policies
- a lack of will to compromise
- a double standard in demanding concessions from others
- a highly arrogant, insulting style
Will take a bit, but we can play that game too. Works extremely well in matters of trade.
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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September 5, 2003, 14:31
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#53
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Deity
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MikeH: OK, then using this survey we can generalize the discussion.
At least the Germans are becoming increasingly pacifist, while at the same time wanting the trappings that go along with superpowerdom. This desire is mainly due to all of those US policies that are offensive to Germans, but about which they have been shown to be able to do precious little about currently.
You follow?
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I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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September 5, 2003, 14:34
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#54
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King
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Hmm ... whatever did happen to the EU initiative to the Korean Peninsula? Did it get overshadowed and eventually superceded by other developments? Or is it still on the table, being unobtrusive about things?
Gatekeeper
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"I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll die defending your right to say it." — Voltaire
"Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart." — Confucius
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September 5, 2003, 14:36
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#55
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Settler
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Quote:
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Originally posted by DanS
At least the Germans are becoming increasingly pacifist, while at the same time wanting the trappings that go along with superpowerdom.
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"War", "Justice" and "Superpower" don't mean the same thing to germans as they do to you. So that troll doesn't catch.
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“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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September 5, 2003, 14:36
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#56
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Deity
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Quote:
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- a lack of will to compromise
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Euros just don't like that they have to compromise 3/4 while the US has to only compromise 1/4 on some things. But this is the score, if Europe isn't a superpower.
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Quote:
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- a double standard in demanding concessions from others
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You like redundancy, don't you.
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- extreme right wing policies
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That's where the electorate is at, although of course I wouldn't describe the policies as extreme right wing.
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I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
Last edited by DanS; September 5, 2003 at 14:42.
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September 5, 2003, 14:39
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#57
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Deity
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Quote:
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"War", "Justice" and "Superpower" don't mean the same thing to germans as they do to you. So that troll doesn't catch.
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You're going to have to explain this to me.
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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September 5, 2003, 14:46
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#58
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Settler
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In stereotypes:
war: bombing 3rd world countries vs total destruction of homeland
justice: getting some bad guy vs political solutions of conflicts
superpower: military vs economic/political power
you're the best exanple for the last point. 
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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September 5, 2003, 14:48
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#59
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Settler
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Quote:
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Originally posted by DanS
Euros just don't like that they have to compromise 3/4 while the US has to only compromise 1/4 on some things. But this is the score, if Europe isn't a superpower.
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This admin doesn't even go the 1/4, so it doesn't matter.
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“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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September 5, 2003, 14:52
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#60
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Emperor
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Quote:
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Originally posted by DanS
At least the Germans are becoming increasingly pacifist, while at the same time wanting the trappings that go along with superpowerdom. This desire is mainly due to all of those US policies that are offensive to Germans, but about which they have been shown to be able to do precious little about currently.
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I don´t think we are are becoming increasingly pacifist, I´d rather think pacifism isn´t as widespread anymore in general here. After years of conflict on the Balkan there is a certain will here to participate in military action, but not in clearly preemptive wars (let´s ignore if justified or not) and only in an international context (not neccessarily UN, but certainly not if there is the impression that besides the US noone really is happy with a particular action). During the last decade Germany has moved from a "no German troops ever outside NATO area" attitude towards more pragmatism. Pacifism plays still an important role here, but I doubt it is increasing. The problem is where should we participate and under what conditions.
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