September 5, 2003, 12:56
|
#1
|
|
Deity
Local Time: 04:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 11,160
|
thoughts on Theoden, KINGship, and lord of the rings
Pardon the commas.
The time has come to discuss certain aspects of the Tolkien trilogy. Especially relevant in that the film of "Return of the KING" will soon be out.
Note that Theoden, ruler of Rohan, is called Lord of the Mark of Rohan, rather than King of Rohan.
Perhaps due to his relation as vassal to the ruler of Gondor, and a mediveval notion that a king cannot be a vassal?
I note he is never called "prince of Rohan"
__________________
"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber
|
|
|
|
|
September 5, 2003, 12:59
|
#2
|
|
Emperor
Local Time: 08:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Posts: 4,620
|
|
Quote:
|
|
and a mediveval notion that a king cannot be a vassal?
|
Actually this isn 't correct. As I recall, there was an English king who was a vassal to the French throne. Can't remember who or when, though - sorry 
|
|
|
|
|
|
September 5, 2003, 13:02
|
#3
|
|
Deity
Local Time: 04:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 11,160
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by David Floyd
Actually this isn 't correct. As I recall, there was an English king who was a vassal to the French throne. Can't remember who or when, though - sorry
|
There were several english kings who held what had been fiefs of France - the english tended to deny that they had to do homage for them, on grounds of the principle i mentioned above. Some - John - ISTR did do homage though. Maybe not that a king couldnt be a vassal, but that he couldnt do homage.
So, do you agree that the Lord of the Mark should have been a KING? 
__________________
"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber
|
|
|
|
|
|
September 5, 2003, 13:25
|
#4
|
|
Emperor
Local Time: 04:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Fort LOLderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Posts: 9,091
|
A King could be vassal to an Emperor, as was the King of Bohemia to the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire. The Crowns of Burgundy and Lotharingia were vacant, but any King would also have been a vassal of the Emperor (the Emperor himself was also King of Germany and Italy).
If you asked the Ottoman Sultan, the King of Hungary was his vassal, as he paid tribute (and later by conquest). The King of Serbia was a sometime vassal of the Ottomans.
IIRC, the King of Sweden was a vassal to the King of Denmark during the Union of Calmar
Since you wrote medieval I won't go into ancient kings and vassalage.
__________________
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
|
|
|
|
|
|
September 5, 2003, 13:27
|
#5
|
|
Emperor
Local Time: 04:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Fort LOLderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Posts: 9,091
|
BTW, Theoden is referred to as King Theoden.
__________________
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
|
|
|
|
|
|
September 5, 2003, 13:28
|
#6
|
|
Deity
Local Time: 04:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 11,160
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
A King could be vassal to an Emperor, as was the King of Bohemia to the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire. The Crowns of Burgundy and Lotharingia were vacant, but any King would also have been a vassal of the Emperor (the Emperor himself was also King of Germany and Italy).
If you asked the Ottoman Sultan, the King of Hungary was his vassal, as he paid tribute (and later by conquest). The King of Serbia was a sometime vassal of the Ottomans.
IIRC, the King of Sweden was a vassal to the King of Denmark during the Union of Calmar
Since you wrote medieval I won't go into ancient kings and vassalage.
|
Good historical points, re kings and emperors.
I personaly dont particulary see the Lord of the Mark becoming an Emperor and as for becoming a Deity , well that would stir the wrath of the Valar, for sure.
__________________
"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber
|
|
|
|
|
|
September 5, 2003, 13:29
|
#7
|
|
Deity
Local Time: 04:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 11,160
|
__________________
"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber
|
|
|
|
|
|
September 5, 2003, 13:34
|
#8
|
|
Deity
Local Time: 04:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Not your daddy's Benjamins
Posts: 10,737
|
Well, it had been thousands of years since the southern numenorians had control over Rohan. And I don't think the Steward of Gondor ever had ultimate authority over Rohan.
Or maybe I'm not remembering correctly.
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
|
|
|
|
|
|
September 5, 2003, 13:36
|
#9
|
|
Deity
Local Time: 04:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 11,160
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by DanS
Well, it had been thousands of years since the southern numenorians had control over Rohan. And I don't think the Steward of Gondor had authority over Rohan.
Or maybe I'm not remembering correctly.
|
When the rohirrim came down from the north about 600 years prior to the war of the ring IIRC, the Rohirrim agreed to come to the aid of Gondor at need, in return for the land. That would seem to be the definition of a military fief. Dont think homage was mentioned though.
And no, the Steward did not claim authority over the INTERNAL affairs of Rohan - but the same was true at SOME times in regard to SOME vassals.
Note also that the Stewards were not KINGS.
__________________
"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber
|
|
|
|
|
|
September 5, 2003, 13:39
|
#10
|
|
Emperor
Local Time: 03:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Back in BAMA full time.
Posts: 4,502
|
Rohan is not a vassal state to Gondor
|
|
|
|
|
|
September 5, 2003, 13:39
|
#11
|
|
Deity
Local Time: 04:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Not your daddy's Benjamins
Posts: 10,737
|
|
Quote:
|
|
Note also that the Stewards were not KINGS.
|
Of course.
|
Quote:
|
|
When the rohirrim came down from the north about 600 years prior to the war of the ring IIRC, the Rohirrim agreed to come to the aid of Gondor at need, in return for the land. That would seem to be the definition of a military fief. Dont think homage was mentioned though.
|
OK, then they would have made that deal with the Steward of Gondor? I don't have my book handy...
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
|
|
|
|
|
|
September 5, 2003, 13:43
|
#12
|
|
Deity
Local Time: 04:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 11,160
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by DanS
OK, then they would have made that deal with the Steward of Gondor? I don't have my book handy...
|
yes with the Stewards, who were already ruling when the arrived, IIRC
__________________
"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber
|
|
|
|
|
|
September 5, 2003, 13:44
|
#13
|
|
Deity
Local Time: 04:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 11,160
|
I am delighted that this is being treated as a serious thread about Tolkien and medieval history. 
__________________
"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber
|
|
|
|
|
|
September 5, 2003, 13:46
|
#14
|
|
Emperor
Local Time: 04:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Fort LOLderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Posts: 9,091
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by DanS
OK, then they would have made that deal with the Steward of Gondor? I don't have my book handy...
|
Yes, the line of Kings in Gondor died out well before that. The King of Arthedain then laid claim to the Crown of Gondor, but the nobility of Gonder refused to be ruled by a Northerner.
__________________
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
|
|
|
|
|
|
September 5, 2003, 13:52
|
#15
|
|
Deity
Local Time: 04:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Not your daddy's Benjamins
Posts: 10,737
|
That's a subject that I never figured out. The only reason why Aragorn was able to become King of Gondor was because his subjects (and most importantly Faramir) allowed that to be?
I'm going to have reread the appendices.
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
|
|
|
|
|
|
September 5, 2003, 13:57
|
#16
|
|
Deity
Local Time: 04:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 11,160
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by DanS
That's a subject that I never figured out. The only reason why Aragorn was able to become King of Gondor was because his subjects (and most importantly Faramir) allowed that to be?
I'm going to have reread the appendices.
|
By law, the heir of Elendil would become king, but it was up to the people of Gondor to recognize that someone was genuinely the heir. With the case of the king of Arthdain, they claimed he was not the true heir, IIRC. In the case of Aragorn there was no dispute.
BTW, dont you suppose, that in the dangerous times of the war of ring, that King Theoden maintained border posts? Along the borders with Dunland, Isengard, and along the river certainly, if not with Gondor? At least a thousand posts?
__________________
"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber
|
|
|
|
|
|
September 5, 2003, 14:16
|
#17
|
|
Emperor
Local Time: 04:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Fort LOLderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Posts: 9,091
|
With Aragorn there was no dispute because of the ghosts.
__________________
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
|
|
|
|
|
|
September 5, 2003, 14:19
|
#18
|
|
Deity
Local Time: 04:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 11,160
|
a thousand posts along the border indeed, to keep out Orcs, wraiths, etc
at least a thousand posts, or how else could the lord of the mark have been a king?
And no, he wouldnt have simply announced his title, for fear of the wrath of the Valar.
__________________
"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber
|
|
|
|
|
|
September 5, 2003, 15:15
|
#19
|
|
Prince
Local Time: 08:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: England
Posts: 310
|
Theoden was King of Rohan and Rohan was not a vassel state to Gondor!
It was and independant nation whose lands used to belong to Gondor but were formally given over to Eorl and his people by the Steward Cirion because Eorl came to Gondors aid during a time of war. And also because Gondor had diminished as a people and could no longer populate and defend such great a terrortory.
Cirion and Eorl also swore an alliance between their nations to come to each others aid in times of need. You'll remember Gondor calling upon Rohan to help during the War of the Ring (sending that red arrow).
So the relationship between them was one of allies not one being a vassel to the other.
|
Quote:
|
|
The time has come to discuss certain aspects of the Tolkien trilogy
|
Oh and Tolkien never wrote a trilogy! He wrote LoTR as one book which the publishers printed and released in three parts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
September 5, 2003, 15:18
|
#20
|
|
Deity
Local Time: 04:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 11,160
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by Turambar
Theoden was King of Rohan and Rohan was not a vassel state to Gondor!
It was and independant nation whose lands used to belong to Gondor but were formally given over to Eorl and his people by the Steward Cirion because Eorl came to Gondors aid during a time of war. And also because Gondor had diminished as a people and could no longer populate and defend such great a terrortory.
Cirion and Eorl also swore an alliance between their nations to come to each others aid in times of need. You'll remember Gondor calling upon Rohan to help during the War of the Ring (sending that red arrow).
So the relationship between them was one of allies not one being a vassel to the other.
|
i do now recall "all hail theoden king!"
but a "mark" means a march or borderland, does it not - usually denoting a fief? Whence the title Marquis.
But im glad he wasnt Marquis of Rohan.
__________________
"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber
|
|
|
|
|
|
September 5, 2003, 15:22
|
#21
|
|
Emperor
Local Time: 04:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Fort LOLderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Posts: 9,091
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by Turambar
Oh and Tolkien never wrote a trilogy! He wrote LoTR as one book which the publishers printed and released in three parts.
|
He didn't give it to them as one book, but over several years.
__________________
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
|
|
|
|
|
|
September 7, 2003, 08:24
|
#22
|
|
Prince
Local Time: 08:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: England
Posts: 310
|
|
Quote:
|
|
He didn't give it to them as one book, but over several years.
|
 Not sure where you got that idea from.
Tolkien gave it to them as one whole book. The publishers decided to publish it in three parts to keep printing costs down. Tolkien had in fact finished writing all of LoTR years before it got published in 1954 / 1955.
|
|
|
|
|
|
September 7, 2003, 14:33
|
#23
|
|
King
Local Time: 04:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,681
|
What are you all talking about?!?
Bilbo, Frodo, and Samwise wrote the Red Book of Westmarch (aka The Lord of the Rings)! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
September 7, 2003, 15:50
|
#24
|
|
Deity
Local Time: 04:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Not your daddy's Benjamins
Posts: 10,737
|
|
Quote:
|
|
With Aragorn there was no dispute because of the ghosts.
|
Bingo! That answers it.
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
|
|
|
|
|
|
September 7, 2003, 17:00
|
#25
|
|
Emperor
Local Time: 10:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,491
|
Bilbo! It does. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
September 7, 2003, 17:28
|
#26
|
|
Emperor
Local Time: 10:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 3,079
|
 Couldn't you have at least tried to make it a little more subtle lord of the mark?
Then again, your username is cooperating nicely...
|
Quote:
|
|
at least a thousand posts, or how else could the lord of the mark have been a king?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
September 7, 2003, 18:04
|
#27
|
|
Emperor
Local Time: 03:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Fear and Oil
Posts: 5,892
|
Don't forget:
-The King of England, Richard Lionheart agreed to be vassal to the Emperor (a Hohenstaufen IIRC) in 1194.
-The King of England, John Lackland agreed to be vassal to the Pope in 1205.
__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon
|
|
|
|
|
|
September 8, 2003, 12:08
|
#28
|
|
Deity
Local Time: 04:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Not your daddy's Benjamins
Posts: 10,737
|
I reread the passages regarding Aragorn and the other point to prove that he was the King was that he had the hands of a healer.
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
|
|
|
|
|
|
September 9, 2003, 20:33
|
#29
|
|
Emperor
Local Time: 03:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: In Exile
Posts: 4,140
|
I know this thread had slipped a few pages but I came across this site on the internet. I thought maybe some of you might like to look at it. Some may already know about it. It's a pretty good sized site. Lot's of info there.
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
__________________
Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We are evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that. --Saul Tigh
|
|
|
|
|
|
September 9, 2003, 21:05
|
#30
|
|
King
Local Time: 04:17
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: The 3rd best place to live in the USA.
Posts: 2,744
|
Yeah. Someone on Sd.net posted a link to that Encyclopedia. Good stuff.
__________________
With such viral bias, you're opinion is thus rendered useless. -Shrapnel12, on my "bias" against the SS.
And any man who may be asked in this century what he did to make his life worth while, I think can respond with a good deal of pride and satisfaction: "I served in the United States Navy!"
"Well, the truth is, Brian, we can't solve global warming because I ****ing changed light bulbs in my house. It's because of something collective." --Barack Obama
|
|
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is On
|
|
|
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:17.
|
|
