Pray all you want, but

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


Well, it's nice that you ignored the philosophical problems of that and just asserted it as truth, but you'll also note that my reference to being a theist didn't say being a Christian. What the Bible claims god does or doesn't do isn't of any concern to me, because I don't think it's any more accurate as a metaphysical text than the Illiad or the Odyssey are.

Ok..I never accused or awarded you the title of being a Christian, only God through His Son can do that and then speak unto your heart, I was merely pointing out fact. Fact is Prayer works and yes God does answer prayers and yes God does change his mind and yes God does allow bad things to happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. You and anyone else would have to approach the throne of God and ask HIM.

I am sorry it is of no concern to you, but it WILL BE very soon Boris..


Peace


Grandpa Troll

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
God helps those who help themselves

Thank you Mr. Franklin.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Troll
I was merely pointing out fact. Fact is Prayer works and yes God does answer prayers and yes God does change his mind and yes God does allow bad things to happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. You and anyone else would have to approach the throne of God and ask HIM.

No, it's not fact, it's your opinion. You're entitled to it, as I am mine. I'm sure if we set up a scientific experiment to measure the effect of prayer on cosmic occurances, it would show no difference in outcome between those who did and didn't pray.

If you conceed that god isn't omniscient, I'll accept such a god can change his mind. However, you have to also conceed such a god is imperfect, since a change of mind denotes a previously-considered course of action that was less-desirable on god's part.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


No, it's not fact, it's your opinion. You're entitled to it, as I am mine. I'm sure if we set up a scientific experiment to measure the effect of prayer on cosmic occurances, it would show no difference in outcome between those who did and didn't pray.

If you conceed that god isn't omniscient, I'll accept such a god can change his mind. However, you have to also conceed such a god is imperfect, since a change of mind denotes a previously-considered course of action that was less-desirable on god's part.

Heres what I accept;


God is perfect, Humans are not

God makes his decisions based on what he determines, not Grandpa Troll or Boris Godunov

God changes directions, directives or decisons, not based on my understanding your understanding or anyones permission.

I am not arguing but merely stating fact, if you dont believe it is between you and God and His Son Jesus.

I know anything I say or type rather will do nothing to convince you, I am witnessing to you, God will add the increase, if you dont accept him, well thats your choice. There will only be 18" between Heaven and Hell, the difference between Heart Knowledge of Jesus Christ and Head Knowledge of mans reasoning.

I just wanted to share that with you

Peace

Grandpa Troll

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
It is no different than the question of why does a good God allow bad things to happen in the world? The world does not care a whit for men, as we see through natural disasters.

Exactly. Disasters provide a rather thorny obstacle to theologians attempting to explain a loving god. After all, love is the new overarching theme in Christianity.

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
In allowing men some degree of freedom, also allows harm to fall any one of us.

How does the second part follow from the first?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Troll
God is perfect, Humans are not

Originally posted by Troll
God changes directions, directives or decisons, not based on my understanding your understanding or anyones permission.

But as Boris pointed out, this is contradictory.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Troll
God makes his decisions based on what he determines, not Grandpa Troll or Boris Godunov

Then why would a prayer make a whit of difference to god? If we're incapable of effecting god's actions through praying, isn't that contradicting the notion that he changes his mind because people pray?

God changes directions, directives or decisons, not based on my understanding your understanding or anyones permission.

Again, this would mean god is not omniscient and not perfect. A perfect being would have no need to change his mind, since he would have been going the perfect course all along. An omniscient being can't change his mind, because he's known all along what he would do.

You can continue to engage in solipsisms like "oh, we can never know the mysterious will of god," but it's unconvincing. Just because you believe something to be true does not make it true nor rational. If you can rationalize any ludicrous belief to the very limits of absurdity by just saying "gods ways are mysterious," such beliefs lose all meaning and just become a string of uncritical, irrational messes.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger




But as Boris pointed out, this is contradictory.

It is when seen though the eyes of Humansness, but when God makes a call, we should Trust he has our best in mind.

Proverbs 3:5 "Trust in the Lord your God, and Lean not unto thine own understanding"

Peace

Grandpa Troll

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Troll


It is when seen though the eyes of Humansness, but when God makes a call, we should Trust he has our best in mind.

Proverbs 3:5 "Trust in the Lord your God, and Lean not unto thine own understanding"

Peace

Grandpa Troll

Yup, solipsism.

[DinoDoc]

I always believed he answered every prayer. Just that sometimes the answer was no.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I always believed he answered every prayer. Just that sometimes the answer was no.

We dispensed with that on page 1. Keep up!

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Boris -

Sorry Molly, there is someone here who can't figure out the obvious. Boris, just what do you think "reminded" Molly of Lector? Someone's post? Molly was inspired to compare someone here with Lector and I asked whom provided that inspiration and I still can't get an answer. Do you think if Molly had started this thread Lector would have been mentioned? It's obvious Molly was slamming someone in this thread for deriving "amusement" from this tragedy... Making sense yet?

Berz:

Option A: take what I posted at face value, and what I explained the post was about, and hold fast to Samuel Beckett's dictum: no symbols where none intended.
Then take a chill pill and be cool, daddy-o.

Option B: Go lick a dog's arse 'til it bleeds.

Whichever you find most congenial.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


Then why would a prayer make a whit of difference to god? If we're incapable of effecting god's actions through praying, isn't that contradicting the notion that he changes his mind because people pray?

I never said that Prayer is ineffectual..actually exactly the opposite

James 5:16 states the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

God listens to the prayerful supplications of his people, and Jesus even stated when he was praying that he was praying outloud, not because he had to in order for Our ftaher to hear Him but that he wanted to teach his disciples.

The Lords Prayer even states "Thy Will be dont, here on earth as well as in Heaven."

Peace

Grandpa Troll

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
We dispensed with that on page 1. Keep up!

I stopped reading that page when Lector was mentioned. What was the resolution?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Troll


I never said that Prayer is ineffectual..actually exactly the opposite

James 5:16 states the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

God listens to the prayerful supplications of his people, and Jesus even stated when he was praying that he was praying outloud, not because he had to in order for Our ftaher to hear Him but that he wanted to teach his disciples.

The Lords Prayer even states "Thy Will be dont, here on earth as well as in Heaven."

Peace

Grandpa Troll

Quoting the Bible as some sort of authoritative source to people who believe it is neither the word of any god nor divinely inspired is nonsensical.

You ignore the rational problems with your position, and just throw out Bible verses that don't answer any of our questions. Why bother? If you want to engage in the "I don't have to defend my position rationally because I can just claim god can do anything and everything even if it makes no sense" defense, I just swat it aside with the "Solipsisms do not an argument make" point and will call it a night.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I stopped reading that page when Lector was mentioned. What was the resolution?

We resolved that god doesn't care about you or your pathetic little prayers, puny mortal.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I always believed he answered every prayer. Just that sometimes the answer was no.

How is that different from not answering?

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


Quoting the Bible as some sort of authoritative source to people who believe it is neither the word of any god nor divinely inspired is nonsensical.

You ignore the rational problems with your position, and just throw out Bible verses that don't answer any of our questions. Why bother? If you want to engage in the "I don't have to defend my position rationally because I can just claim god can do anything and everything even if it makes no sense" defense, I just swat it aside with the "Solipsisms do not an argument make" point and will call it a night.

Ok..heres MY POINT:

I am just sharing God's inspired written word, you can accept it or not..BUT..one day your soul will be required of thee..which direction will it be shipped..Heaven or Hell?

Ok..Peace unto you

Grandpa Troll

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Troll
It is when seen though the eyes of Humansness, but when God makes a call, we should Trust he has our best in mind.

Are you trying to say, "We don't know what the heck is going on?"

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
We resolved that god doesn't care about you or your pathetic little prayers, puny mortal.

How Deist of you!

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Are you trying to say, "We don't know what the heck is going on?"

At times, EXACTLY!!

We do not have the vision God has or even the ability to Fathom his great understanding.

We do have understanding a lot of the time and yes God has given us instinct and brains, BUT we do not allways see what God has in mind for HIS greater plans, which sometimes excape our understanding.
THAT is my point.

Peace

Grandpa Troll

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Troll
Ok..heres MY POINT:

I am just sharing God's inspired written word, you can accept it or not..BUT..one day your soul will be required of thee..which direction will it be shipped..Heaven or Hell?

And here's my point: You can spout all the Biblical passages you want, and claim it's the word of some deity, but that is meaningless in a debate wherein the other people involved don't accept the Bible as such. Unless you're prepared to defend your beliefs with rational thought, logic and arguments that actually address the issues raised, then you're wasting our time and yours. We can all go and open the Bible and see some quotes, we don't need you to post them like some sort of quote-of-the-day machine.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Troll
We do have understanding a lot of the time and yes God has given us instinct and brains, BUT we do not allways see what God has in mind for HIS greater plans, which sometimes excape our understanding.
THAT is my point.

A point that has been dispensed with as mere solipsism used to hide from a thorny point you can't debate with reason. Saying "God works in mysterious ways" is a nice balm for not having to actually think about your beliefs logically or to avoid uncomfortable metaphysical arguments, but it's patently useless in discussion with people who are interested in an actual debate of ideas instead Biblical regurgitations.

[Berzerker]

Boris -

Gee, I'd say what reminded Molly of Lecter was the image of devout fundamentalists relying on prayer in times of disaster and setting themselves up to be wiped out by disaster.

Gee, what did Lector do when reading these accounts? Derive amusement? So, who is deriving amusement? A movie character that doesn't even exist? Does Molly just think of Lector whenever a tragedy occurs to religious folk or was it that someone in this thread "appears" to be laughing at this tragedy just as Lector would be laughing?

I think he was right when he used "paranoia" for you, which you make pretty obvious by your refusal to admit you made a wrong assumption about his intent and your shrill attempts to keep the argument going.

Shrill? I asked Molly to identify the person deriving amusement from this tragedy. Hardly shrill... Btw, refusing to acknowledge a mistake is not paranoia.

For someone who claims to champion personal responsibility, it's amazing you never seem to take any for your own mistakes.

What mistake? We have 2 interpretations, you accept yours and I accept mine.

I'm surprised you didn't lash out at me for correcting your error on the Tommy Chong thread (though you did blame it on FOX instead).

Why would I? Do you realise you've just contradicted yourself? And yes, Laurie Dhue said 9 years, not 9 months. So what should have I done, typed 9 months instead of what I heard her say?

I've seen you and Molly butt heads before, so I know you don't like him and are eager to take him one whenever you can.

Oh stfu, Molly jumped into this thread to compare someone to Hannibal Lector and started insulting me when I asked him to identify the "villain" so don't give me this sh!t about me being eager, etc., all I've done is try to get Molly to identify the target of his insult. And this is the first time I've gotten on Molly's case so I don't know what in the hell you're talking about.

And I saw how you falsely implied Dr. Strangelove wasn't a doctor because he dared to disagree with you with his medical opinion, and didn't make any attempt to apologize.

First, how do you know I "falsely implied" Strangelove isn't a doctor? Have you seen his medical diploma? And it wasn't over his medical opinion, it was over his use of "reefer madness" style arguments in support of the drug war. You clearly don't know what you're talking about.

I'm well aware of your penchant for vindictiveness against anyone who dares to argue with you, but in this instance, I think it's safe to say you picked a battle unwisely and look like ever the paranoid fool. I can't wait for more eyerolls, with the hope they'll get lodged up there.

Oh stop your BS! I'm not "vindictive" with people who disagree with me, just with people who start insulting me first. Feel free to actually prove an accusation for a change. Here is what started the insult war and if you look close, it wasn't me:

And Berzerker- unknot your knickers fer crissakes, I wasn't accusing you of deriving enjoyment from the demise of the children. I'm just glad to see you support the right of someone to hold to their faith- even when it means the death of others.

That was from Molly in response to my post here:

That was part of George Carlin's routine, but Molly, this wasn't about a tornado hitting a church on Sunday, it was quite avoidable. And aside from David's comment about the Darwin Awards (obviously only applicable to the adults), who is "amused"?

That was a simple and polite question. Now, aside from the nasty tone he starts off with, where in the hell did he get that BS about me supporting such a right? Yeah, Molly isn't here to insult anyone, it's all an honest mistake. I suggest you read the thread before blabbing on about "vindictiveness" because that insult from Molly preceded any negative comments I made about him. Whining about me being "vindictive" while ignoring Molly's posts is hypocritical. Btw, that was quite a vindictive post there, Mr Consistency...

[Berzerker]

Molly -

Option A: take what I posted at face value, and what I explained the post was about, and hold fast to Samuel Beckett's dictum: no symbols where none intended.
Then take a chill pill and be cool, daddy-o.

Option B: Go lick a dog's arse 'til it bleeds.

No third option where intentions are unclear and someone asks for clarification? Try this, the next time someone asks a simple and polite question, answer it instead of throwing around insults and lies.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Troll
We do not have the vision God has or even the ability to Fathom his great understanding.

Hm, who says your god has vision or great understanding?

Originally posted by Troll
We do have understanding a lot of the time and yes God has given us instinct and brains, BUT we do not allways see what God has in mind for HIS greater plans, which sometimes excape our understanding.

How could you tell when you actually understand "his plan" and when you don't without any frame of reference? In other words, how is it possible to know the unknowable at times and not at others?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Molly -

No third option where intentions are unclear and someone asks for clarification? Try this, the next time someone asks a simple and polite question, answer it instead of throwing around insults and lies.

I explained, you chose to believe I was insulting someone. I said I wasn't, you called me an 'intellectual coward' (exactly what, or who was I meant to be afraid of?), a purveyor of bullsh!t, etc,. Charm school clearly working.

Do you support a person's right to hold a particular faith? Such as say, Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and so on? Your post in the Alabama Decalogue case would seem to indicate so.

Unfortunately adherents of those faiths may have children- who have no choice about whether they are born to people who pursue those beliefs. Those beliefs have resulted in the deaths of children- children denied medical treatment and blood transfusions.

http://watchtower.observer.org/apps/...LDREN/10601009

http://watchtower.observer.org/apps/...LDREN/10727009

http://www.cultnews.com/archives/000359.html

http://www.secularhumanism.org/libra...wood_23_03.htm

[Berzerker]

Molly -

I explained, you chose to believe I was insulting someone. I said I wasn't, you called me an 'intellectual coward' (exactly what, or who was I meant to be afraid of?), a purveyor of bullsh!t, etc,. Charm school clearly working.

You're ignoring your first response after I asked for clarification, here it is again:

And Berzerker- unknot your knickers fer crissakes, I wasn't accusing you of deriving enjoyment from the demise of the children. I'm just glad to see you support the right of someone to hold to their faith- even when it means the death of others.

All I did was ask "who was amused" and that was what I got in return - an insult and a lie (okay, a snide falsehood?) about me supporting the "right" of these parents to get their children killed. Now, I apologise for the "intellectual coward" insult since it is possible you didn't mean anyone in the thread was behaving like Hannibal Lector, but the BS charge stands.

Do you support a person's right to hold a particular faith? Such as say, Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and so on? Your post in the Alabama Decalogue case would seem to indicate so.

Sure, and this is relevant? Did I say in that thread this right translates into a right to recklessly endanger others to the point of getting them killed? Nope, and it would have helped if you referenced the other thread so I would have had some idea where you were getting that nonsense. That other thread was about the 10 Commandments and a stone monument, not religious folk effectively killing their children through utter neglect.

[LoneWolf]

Hey, the rabbit turd is back!!! Cool!!!!
These sorts of threads always intrigue me. If you don't believe, why do you care if others do? And if you do, (as I do), say what you believe and hope it sticks.

[Lincoln]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Are you a closet Calvinist?

I think that the will of man and the will of God both enter into the ultimate will of God which is superior. In other words, God get's in the first and last word but we get to play our part as well. The end is known by God but I think that Calvin missed something because he did not understand the relativity of time. It is entirely possible for one being in one deminsion to act out his little drama in his corner of the universe while the supreme being sees the future of our actions before we do.

Calvin thought of God as assigning men to an arbitrary destination. That is true to some extent because God created people with the full knowledge that some would end up in hell and others in heaven. Looking at the drama down here on earth though I think we would conclude that they deserved it. If Hitler, for example, is thrown into hell I don't think that too many people are going to shed a tear over it. And if the cleaning woman down the street ends up in heaven I don't think that the overall justice will be in question.

The justice of God is (throughout scripture) to lift up the poor and humble and destroy the powerful and arrogant. When Jesus came to earth he rejected the arrogant religious community and reached out to harlots, fishermen and the despised members of society. Calvanists too often think that they are the chosen. I think that God is still rejecting religious arrogance and drawing the weak and despised to his fellowship. I think that the Indians that were slaughtered will be in heaven beore their Calvanist persecutors will.