Modelo Comercial Civ3 vs Civ2

[Dr. Nick]

Primero de todo: "Comienza la pulseada de Cancún por los subsidios"

"La liberalización del comercio es una falsa receta de crecimiento"

EE.UU. y Europa flexibilizan su posición por los subsidios

World trade talks collapse (Perdon, no encontre una fuente en castellano )

Parece que no va ni para atras ni para adelante el tema de los paises desarrollados vs los subdesarrollados, y mientras firman 'mission statements' sobre erradicar la pobreza y permitir el desarrollo, las acciones hablan al reves. Entre el FMI y la OMC... *suspiro*

[DrGerry]

Terminó como empezó.

¡Bah!, como todos sabíamos...

[Niessuh]

Al menos los paises ricos no han conseguido romper la alianza de los 23, que es todo un logro. Aqui algunos hablaban de sembrar la discordia ente ellos como si fuera algo aceptable y positivo......vergonzoso

Otra cosa positiva es el asesoramiento de las ONG a los paises pobres, ha estado a la altura de los lobbies que acompañaban a yanquis y euro-peos

[Chilean President™]

Chile lamenta falta de resultados en la cumbre

[academia]

Al menos los paises ricos no han conseguido romper la alianza de los 23, que es todo un logro.

Si... creo que es lo unico rescatable.

[Dr. Nick]

Viva el G23! Juntos les hacemos el ole a los G7!

Es medio como David y Goliat.

[Estilpón]

Otra cosa positiva es el asesoramiento de las ONG a los paises pobres, ha estado a la altura de los lobbies que acompañaban a yanquis y euro-peos

eso es exactamente tan discutible como los que los lobbies sean positivos para el G7....

lo bueno es que el G23 se ha negado a liberalizar "lo que le interesaba" al G7 si estos "no liberalizaban lo que le interesa "al G23

[jasev]

eso es exactamente tan discutible como los que los lobbies sean positivos para el G7....

Hombre, no es exactamente lo mismo porque los lobbies son por definición egoístas (tratan de conseguir beneficios para sus patrocinadores), mientras que se supone que las ONG actúan de forma altruista. Otra cosa es que puedan equivocarse.

[Estilpón]

por eso pongo discutible (porque me refiero a las consecuencias) y no "lo mismo", porque efectivamente, no lo son

[Niessuh]

Al menos han evitado que estos paises sean avasallados, aunque estoy de acuerdo en que algunas ONGs tienen plantamientos dudosos (y no me refiero a las más "radicales")

[Estilpón]

sí, el mundo rico tiene tendencia a exigir la apertura de los mercados en los productos y servicios en los que es competente, y en los que no es eficiente y tiene productores (productos agrícolas, materias primas, acero, minería etc...) aplicar excepciones a diestro y siniestro... perjudicando claramente a los países en desarrollo... inaceptable

[yaroslav]

a mi me ha decepcionado mucho Europa, creí que ibamos a ser menos egoistas

[Dr. Nick]

Te decepcionaras mas cuando leas esto, los paises que estaban trabando el acuerdo entre el FMI y la Argentina eran Francia, Espa*ña e Italia, que exigian aumentos de tarifas y compensacion para los bancos.

[yaroslav]

Desde luego, la actitud de Francia e Italia es vergonzosa

[Dr. Nick]

Miralo a Aznar, encima, amigo del conserva destruidor de paises De La Rua...

...me pregunto si De La Rua en realidad se convirtio en un emigrante como tantos otros argentinos? No ven que yo les dije que estaban haciendo contra colonizacion? Menem lo mandamos a Chile con la Bolocco, y a ustedes les mandamos De La Rua...

No ven? La venganza sera terrible!

Pero es en serio que España, Italia y Francia eran los que trababan las negociaciones... sino preguntenle a Gerardo, que no es troll.

[academia]

Pero es en serio que España, Italia y Francia eran los que trababan las negociaciones... sino preguntenle a Gerardo, que no es troll.

Si... y lo tragicomico es que el apoyo vino desde USA

[yaroslav]

No puedo resistirme a publicar esta basura, sacada directamente del Wall Street Journal...

Jose Maria Aznar hasn't just turned Spain into a staunch U.S. ally and economic dynamo, he's also doing something no other Spanish leader has since Charles V abdicated in 1556 -- he's preparing to leave office of his own accord. I put this to him last week in an interview -- adding, in jest, that Charles V's record might need an asterisk against it as he was only half-Spanish -- and Mr. Aznar did something even more unusual: He laughed. "Si," he chuckled, after some thought.

Now that his party has just picked Mr. Aznar's successor as candidate for next year's elections, it's time to do a historic reckoning of the prime minister's own seven-plus years in office. His imminent exit evidently allows him to be more unbuttoned than he's been in the past, as when he tells us that the Middle East Road Map has failed -- for the moment at least. "There's no road and there's no map," he said. A former aide later asks me, "He said that? And you're going to use it?" The man rolled his eyes. "This is a different Aznar now." And there's no reason for Mr. Aznar not to be "different," to have a strut in his step, given his achievements:

- He has transformed Spain's politics. He inherited the wounded remnants of Gen. Franco's conservatism -- insular, atavistic and Hispanically mystical in its Catholicism -- and made it classically liberal. He has also made it acceptable to be on the political right in Spain, which, when you consider the popular distaste for la derecha after Franco's death, is no mean feat. "This is the first time in our history that we've had liberal policies," he said. The approach has produced a thriving economy, one of the few in the EU still growing. "Our policies have allowed us to have a revolution of prosperity. When in a country of 40 million you create four million jobs, that is a social revolution," he added.

• By supporting the U.S. on Iraq, Mr. Aznar has put Spain squarely in the pro-U.S. camp, bidding to end suspicion that goes back, for the left wing, to the Franco era, and for the right to the Spanish-American War. "The transatlantic link is a great need for Europe," he stressed. "I would like Europeans to defend these things with more courage." The reason it isn't happening? "Europeans have become too complacent."

• He's taken Spain out of the French shadow where it was since 1700, when the Bourbons replaced the Hapsburgs as the ruling dynasty. Of all the changes this may be the most momentous in his efforts to make Spain a "strong country again," since its decline as a great nation dates roughly from that time. During our chat he slipped barbs at Jacques Chirac. "I don't understand those people who mistreat East Europeans," he said with a bemused air, a reference to Mr. Chirac's attack on the EU's newest members earlier this year. Asked about Mr. Chirac's use of "la resistance" to describe the terrorists sabotaging the administration in Iraq, Mr. Aznar's curled his lip: "It's a very French position."

• Mr. Aznar is the first Spanish leader who has recognized the potential of Hispanics in the U.S. and sought to interact with them: "I want Hispanics there to know that they have common European roots and a heritage that can be as solid as the Anglo-Saxon one." And any influence he has with Hispanics could be useful to his good friend, George W. Bush, in the elections next year. "Bush will win the election and will do it on his own," Mr. Aznar said, "but if he needs a hand he knows he'll have it" -- raising the delicious prospect of a retired foreign statesman giving stump speeches en espanol for a U.S. presidential campaign. (For starters, he's going to Miami this month -- "to be with the Cubans.")

The Aznar reach for Hispanics puts France on notice that, at a time when its language and geopolitical position are plummeting in worth, Spain's are headed in the opposite direction. He said he's told Mr. Chirac that there were 40 million Spanish-speakers in the U.S. and that he didn't share the French idea of a "European cultural exception." Why? Because "the Spanish cultural exception is with 350 million people who live on the other side of the Atlantic."

• By leaving of his own accord at a time of his own choosing, Mr. Aznar is trying to end the tradition of caudillismo, of the charismatic, populist leader who refuses to let go of power until he dies in office or is run out of Madrid. This practice has been the bane not just of Spain, but also of her daughter-republics across the Atlantic. This is the capstone of all his changes, and the one that might ensure that they survive the individual. Spaniards are astonished that a politico is sticking to his word, setting a term limit for himself as he said he would in 1996. It's like an end to cynicism, and he recognizes this. Of leaving, he said, "I'm convinced it is very good for my party and for my country. I don't want some of the most important policies that we've put in place to be seen as personal issues. I wouldn't like these solid Spanish positions to be seen as 'something that Aznar did.' I want them to be shared by an entire generation."

Unlike Charles V, who retired to a monastery, the worldly Mr. Aznar wants to ensure the survival of his reforms by further explaining them to his compatriots. Though they support him strongly, according to opinion polls, many are perplexed by the swirl of things. This risks the very personalismo that Mr. Aznar wants to avoid -- loyalty to the man without understanding his policies. He affirms that defending his reforms is the only way to preserve his legacy, something he wants to devote his full attention to now.

"Everything takes time. Until now I have dedicated myself a lot to facts, a little to persuasion. Now I'm going to dedicate myself to persuasion," he says. Next spring, he will become the head of a classical-liberal think-tank created for him, the Foundation for Social Studies and Analysis, better known by its Spanish acronym, FAES. But is this enough for a 50-year-old who has changed what used to be one of the most hide-bound societies in the civilized world?

Mr. Aznar denies he seeks a high-profile post like that of the U.N.'s secretary general, or to become a future president of Europe (it's hard to see any French government accepting him any time soon). But he says he wants to work hard to "not allow the leftist point of view in Europe to define what is politically correct" and on making sure that Europe retains "an Atlanticist view." I can see heads slump at the prospect in Paris. And in Washington? Cries of "Viva Aznar!"

[yaroslav]

Pero es que aún hay más del mismo periódico

Spanish Prime Minister Jose María Aznar has about 50 million reasons -- the size of the Latino population in the U.S. -- why he can't embrace the French foreign-policy vision of making Europe a counterweight to, instead of a partner of, America.

Mr. Aznar confirmed in an interview that he asked French President Jacques Chirac recently whether "he wouldn't feel differently" toward America if its largest ethnic community were of French heritage and growing fast. The two men have locked horns for months over their differences toward the Bush administration's Iraq policies and their competing visions of Europe's future.

However, this is the first time the Spanish leader has gone beyond his general approval of America's fight against terrorism and placed it within the context of his vision of Spain as a trans-Atlantic bridge to all of the Americas.

"I want Hispanics in the U.S. to know that they have common European roots and a heritage that can be as solid as the Anglo-Saxon one," he said. "For me, the trans-Atlantic partnership shouldn't just be the United States and Europe, but between Europe and all of the Americas."

It is a vision Mr. Aznar is confident will survive when he steps down next year, after two four-year terms in office. Despite overwhelming public opposition to U.S. policy in Iraq, his choice as the ruling party's candidate to succeed him, former Deputy Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy, is determined to maintain a strong trans-Atlantic relationship, Mr. Aznar says.

For good reason. In just over a decade, Spanish companies have invested more than $90 billion (€79.72 billion) to expand in Latin America and have increasingly spoken of using Mexico as a platform to enter the U.S. market. In December, for instance, Bank of America Corp. agreed to pay $1.6 billion to Spain's Banco Santander Central Hispano SA for a 25% stake in Grupo Financiero Santander Serfin SA, one of Mexico's biggest banks. Both Santander and Bank of America hope the deal will enable them to cash in on the growing Latino market for remittances, while providing Santander with a stepping stone into the U.S.

Mr. Aznar's comments also as Latin Americans make up the fastest-growing immigrant group in the European Union. The Spanish leader sees Spanish and English as the globe's two most important languages and he wants to build on that politically and economically, in some cases giving his country an influence far greater than its size might warrant.

When Argentina hit a snag earlier this month during negotiations with the International Monetary Fund over a debt-refinancing package, Spain and the U.S. teamed up to help broker a deal vital to the interests of Spanish and U.S. companies in Argentina.

Similarly, Mr. Aznar has leveraged his close relationship with U.S. President George W. Bush to influence U.S. policy in other regions. Even as he backs the U.S. in Iraq, Mr. Aznar said he encouraged Mr. Bush to be more willing to deal with Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat in an effort to revive the Mideast peace process following Israel's controversial decision to expel the Palestinian leader late last week.

"Arafat is a reality," he says. "You might like him more or less, and he shares part of the responsibility for what's gone wrong, but we cannot act as if he didn't exist."

Mr. Aznar had urged President Bush to push the so-called road map peace plan in the run-up to the Iraqi war. Now, he says, "There is no road and there is no map. We need to re-establish them."

Mr. Aznar concedes that there is little room for maneuver ahead of next year's U.S. presidential elections, however, and that Iraq was the greater trans-Atlantic priority. "If the situation in Iraq deteriorates, it will be worse for the Middle East and it will be worse for everyone. What we're doing now is just bailing out water."

Mr. Aznar's comments come at a critical time for trans-Atlantic relations, ahead of this week's likely vote at the United Nations on a new Iraq resolution. The prime minister also is scheduled to visit New York and Florida later this month, where he will meet with members of the Latino community. Although he hasn't been asked, Mr. Aznar said he would be glad to campaign in the U.S. on Mr. Bush's behalf.

The prime minister wouldn't comment on details of his discussions last week in Madrid with Mr. Chirac, but his aides say the two men disagreed on issues ranging from Iraq to European economic policy. Mr. Aznar has been sharply critical of France's and Germany's failure to limit their surging budget deficits and conform to European Union rules as undermining the credibility of their common currency. He also opposes the French attitude that coalition difficulties in Iraq prove the dissenters right in their opposition to the U.S.

"I don't agree with the Europeans who think it's good for Europe when things aren't going well for the United States," he said. "Right now what is happening in Iraq is the most important aspect of the fight against terrorism. Whoever doesn't believe this to be true is mistaken. It's going to be a long road ahead. ... If the final result is failure, terrorism will emerge the winner."

Mr. Aznar said the French president didn't respond to his comment about the U.S. Latino community, which is close to about 50 million -- 17 million foreign-born and an additional 33 million U.S. born -- according to the most recent U.S. census. "I wanted to explain to him that Spain has a very strong trans-Atlantic link that we cannot renounce," he said. "For us this trans-Atlantic relationship is an opportunity and it is a great need for Europe."

Mr. Aznar said he told a gathering of Spanish ambassadors over the weekend that failing to understand the need for joint security with the U.S. "will be like Europe committing suicide. ... Europeans have become very complacent. We do not want to be disturbed. We close our eyes and do not see the problems."

[Thorgal]

Como comprenderás no me voy a tragar semejante ladrillo. De todas maneras lo he ojeado. :vomit: No sabía que España había estado a la sombra de Francia desde 1700

Por otra parte se diría que Felipe González nunca haya existido. Hasta yo lo estoy empezando a dudar.

[Dr. Nick]

When Argentina hit a snag earlier this month during negotiations with the International Monetary Fund over a debt-refinancing package, Spain and the U.S. teamed up to help broker a deal vital to the interests of Spanish and U.S. companies in Argentina.

Que mentirosos! El lobby español lo unico que queria era cubrirle el culo a Telefonica y al Santander con compensaciones y subas de tarifas!

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by yaroslav
a mi me ha decepcionado mucho Europa, creí que ibamos a ser menos egoistas

Lo que no deberia de avergonzarte es que hay gente como tu y como muchos muchos otros que estan muy concientes de que esto es una injusticia.

Los que estan en contra son una minoria: son granjeros franceses y demas que son ineficientes pero quiren seguir compitiendo como si no lo fueran. Esa minoria, por desgracia, como tambien en EU, tienen una influencia politica fortisima.

Lo que a mi me deja esto es que hemos llegado a un punto de no retorno en el sistmea economico mundial:

1) Los paises industrializados no bajan sus subsidios y en consecuencia, los en desarrollo tampoco bajan sus aranceles. Resultado: se acaba la globalizacion.

2) Los paises industrializados les cae el veinte y bajan sus subsidios y el mundo en desarrollo baja sus aranceles. Resultado: globalizacion y competicion efectiva.

3) Los paises en desarrollo ceden ante la presion, bajan sus aranceles pero sin una caida en subsidios en los industralizados. la peor opcion y espero que gracias al G23 esto sea ya politicamente inaceptable.

Los fregados en caso de 1) son paises como Mexico que ya bajaron sus aranceles frente a los EU y siguen enfrentando competencia desleal.

[DrGerry]

Originally posted by El Awrence
Pero es en serio que España, Italia y Francia eran los que trababan las negociaciones... sino preguntenle a Gerardo, que no es troll.

Es cierto, hijos míos

[Master Zen]

Oh my god.... despues de leer ese articulo del WSJ me quedo con la idea de que

1) Latinoamerica considera a espa;a como guia y lider. Falso.

2) Aznar llego al poder immediateamente despues de Franco. Falso.

3) España esta completamente en contra de toda política Europea. Falso.

Bueno, que esperaban del WSJ?

[DrGerry]

WSJ:

[jasev]

Como comprenderás no me voy a tragar semejante ladrillo. De todas maneras lo he ojeado. :vomit: No sabía que España había estado a la sombra de Francia desde 1700

Por otra parte se diría que Felipe González nunca haya existido. Hasta yo lo estoy empezando a dudar.

Yo me lo he tragado enterito. Hay que reconocer que el Wall Street Journal siempre ha tenido clara su línea editorial

¿Felipe González? Los catorce años más oscuros de la historia española, hombre

Digo yo que si tanto les gusta Aznar a los yanquis... que se lo queden Eso sí que es una venganza.

[Dr. Nick]

1) Latinoamerica considera a espa;a como guia y lider. Falso.

Esto me causo gran risa... en un momento donde pareciera que la integracion estrategica en terminos diplomaticos va en full swing aca en latinoamerica, no solo seria falso que los yanquis se crean que España aun es 'la madre patria' de latinoamerica, sino que casi seria un insulto y seria pesimamente recibida esta actitud neocolonial.

Ademas, lo hacen ver a Aznar como el gran filantropo y ya sabemos las leyes que estan pasando en espania para que no entren mas latinoamericanos, y los argentinos que han deportado tras procesos que son una injuria al sistema legal.

[Niessuh]

Originally posted by jasev

Digo yo que si tanto les gusta Aznar a los yanquis... que se lo queden Eso sí que es una venganza.

Creo que no andas descaminado...cuando acabe de escribir sus gloriosas hazañas en la biografia seguro que le ofrecen algun cargo en el banco mundial, OTAN o equivalente. De ahí tanto peloteo
Lo más gracioso es que no tiene ni zorra de inglés...No hay nada más patético que verle en las recepciones con los fotógrafos fingir que está hablando con sus amigos Blaiiiir y Buhs

[Estilpón]

no puede ser ¿estamos todos de acuerdo?


Sólo un apunte: Aznar tiene unas obsesiones...

(recalcar lo que otros han dicho: ¿qué esperaban del WSJ?

[jasev]

(recalcar lo que otros han dicho: ¿qué esperaban del WSJ?

Pues eso: coherencia con su línea editorial. No como esos desafectos del Economist, que últimamente se atreven a cuestionar la política ansárica

[DrGerry]

(by Estilpón) no puede ser ¿estamos todos de acuerdo?

¿Estás de acuerdo con la frase de jasev?:

¿Felipe González? Los catorce años más oscuros de la historia española, hombre

No sé si Felipe fue bueno o malo (en todo caso estuvo por aquí haciendo lobby para Telecómica e Iberia). Sin embargo, hubiera creído que con Franco han pasado algunos "14 años" un poquito peores. Digo, ¿no?