Message I wish to send-- what do you think?

Flubber · September 16, 2003, 11:58

WE pretty much need to trade doc flex to the cycon or they will discover it themselves. I prepared a detailed negotiating position and want feedback. I will be tied up for the next 7 hours or so in meetings but I will check back here to see what modifications I should make before responding to the cycon.

Any loopholes they could exploit? Am I asking too much? too little? Remember they will discover doc flex anyway soon so asking for the sun and the moon is not in the cards.
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Honored maniac of the cycon,

I am pleased to speak to you again.

AS it stands, you "owe" us ethical calc from previous deals and I believe we both want to make a deal to benefit us both from your imminent discovery of doc flex.

That is coming soon, So the simple question is what can you give us in return for doc flex? I don't think you have any current tech of interest so the obvious answer is a " future tech" . That is acceptable in principle but our people feel a little miffed that you chose to research doc flex last time when eth calc was owed to us. The negotiator felt it was an unspoken idea that you would research eth calc as soon as possible. However , if he did not nail down that point, its not something to upset our relations over. It is however reason the reason I am spelling out a few conditions.

The offer I want to put out there is this

1. WE send you Doc flex prior to your discovery of it so you can switch to another tech for free. . .

2. You switch to ethical calculus as soon as it is possible-- it is possible to ascertain tech choices and I'll see if the cuspidore can confirm it will be available to you right away -- and you provide ethical cal to us to complete our prior deal

3. For doc flex we want a tech in return . . . The tech cannot be a level 1 tech and you must offer us the next Level 2 or up tech you acquire, that we do not already have. WE may decline your first acquisition and choose from among the three techs you next acquire, not level 1, ( whether by trade or research) that we don't already have. You would send the tech to us in the year requested.

4. Timing-- So far its doc flex for some unknown tech, straight up . . . But our people don't agree that an unknown tech returned 5 , 10 or even 20 years from now is worth a known valuable tech tech today-- I think you could agree that there is value in having a tech earlier rather than later. Therefore I would like to build into the deal some incentive for you to pay us back . . . Think of it as "interest" on the tech you owe us. WE propose a lump sum of 25 ec and an interest rate of 5 ec per year from years 6 to 10 (counted from the year we give you doc flex) and 25 ec per year from years 11 onward. It may seem steep in later years and it is intended to be, since the idea is you return a tech as soon as possible. Yearly interest is no longer payable once you have provided us ethical calc and offered us one other level 2 and up tech ( that we don't have), regardless of whether we choose to take that tech immediately or wait to see what you acquire next.

5. Lastly, you may not trade doc flex onward to anyone until you have paid us in full for it, including all techs owed to us whether from this or future deals. Consider it our " mortgage " on the tech until you fully pay for it.

Making a deal is in both our interests. At the end of the day this is a straight deal of doc flex for some future tech, and therefore we see it as quite fair. Points 3 , 4 and 5 of the offer are simply to ensure we get something NOW and to ensure you have an incentive to provide something back to us as soon as possible.

You will note that I have tried to be a little inventive in seeing that we both benefit from thise deal. I am still trying to forge strong ties while still getting a good deal for my own faction. We welcome alternate offers so if you have something to offer, let us know . I can say that the idea of some tech years down the road with no other consideration or conditions is not viewed as a fair deal by Peace.

Ambassador Flubber

Chief Sweetalker o' the PEACE

Flubber · September 16, 2003, 12:04

I think its a decent negotiating position but I have been accused in some of my games as being an unreasonably difficult negotiator-- I tried hard to be fair. I hope it isn't askiung too little

Bottom line is that they will acquire doc flex themselves and this deal, clause 5, will prohibit them from trading it for a while.

Responses needed since I need to respond to them later today.

Hercules · September 16, 2003, 12:57

The Borg are about six/seven turns from Doc:Flex , though they could perhaps speed up their research rate. As far we know they can only trade with us, Roze and Miriam.

If they don't contact anyone else, then after transferring Ethic Calc to us, it will take them some years to research the next tech of interest to us. They might argue that they can't research any faster and we would be charging them unfairly.

I wonder what their chances of successfully trading with Roze are. If high and they are successful, then they avoid indebtness, restrictions on trading and will be able to repay us our tech within 6 years. However they will have nobody left to trade it with if our selling plan works.

I wonder would they be interested in deferred delivery until 4/5 years from now ( that would give us more pod popping, exploration and colonisation (land mass to their east) time.

Edited. My keyboard died in the middle of adding something but I can't remeber what.

johndmuller · September 16, 2003, 14:28

Cap'n F, the tone is firm and businesslike, as opposed to diplomatically flowery, but not overtly offensive. It probably won't waarm their cockles, but they are used to somewhat confrontational negotiation positions from us, so it probably won't cause a vendetta.

Regarding the previous round of negotiations, I don't recall exactly without wading into my morass of old emails, but it seems to me that we were not so definitive about EthicalCalc as you make it sound - more likely that was used as a talking poing, a 'for example', rather than a concrete deal - I would imagine we said something like 'We are not terribly enamored of those level 1 techs, but would probably prefer to consider your next tech (that we don't have), something like EthicalCalc, should you be offered it.' Only a fine point, as I haven' looked at what might be their possibilities; speaking of which, I will attempt to find time to look into their tech choice situation to see what their choices might have been earlier (although I don't think I can remember for sure exactlly what their situation was the last time they finished a tech - I presume it was IndAuto, and that they have acquired no additional techs since then, is that true anyone)?

As to its fairness, that would depend on whether your time limit before interest kicks in is no less than however long it takes them to research the next tech after the (substitute for) Doc:Flex, assuming no intentional research slowdown - since they couldn't very well give us the second tech before then. I don't know if you got that 6 year figure from looking at their tech rate - if not, we should look at that as a guideline for 'reasonable' (it will still be challenging for them, as the tech cost will go up after the next discovery, so if we use their current rate, it will keep them on their toes). As to the here and now flat fee, somehow it sounds high the way it is presented, so close to the interest charge, even though after thinking about it, it doesn't really seem unreasonaable, so I guess I would suggest separating that 25 from the interest discussion and talking about it separately; something like '...blah, blah, ... so since it will take you about xx years to research your next tech, we think you should give us 25 PoE to compensate for our waiting around (after all, we'll have to run a tab at the pub otherwise, and our style calls for slapping the doubloons down hard on the bar, rather than signin' some bloody notes - the babes don't always fancy a bloke who has ta use an X for their signature, ya know). Also, since you kinda left us hanging this time (and forced our hand w/r Doc:Flex), we think there should be a penalty for not comin' up with the goods on time, (or mix in some of your original language with all this), say 5 PoE/year after XX (years to their next tech) years and 25 per year if it goes beyond XX + 5 years... etc.'

I'm not suggesting you use that exact text, but separated out like that, it seems if anything too little, rather than too much, at least IMhO.

Flubber · September 16, 2003, 19:17

JOhnd

My understanding was that they owe us a tech from the last deal-- they seem to confirm that. Do they or do they not owe us a tech ?? I appreciate eth calc might not have been certain but I am trying to hint that we have a grievance as a reason for all these consitions

If they do owe us a tech, they should pay that back immediately. That does mean waiting around to get something in return for doc flex and we can reasonably expect to wait 10 years or so before they might acquire something to give back.

I also worded it to run from them acquiring doc flex from us so that they would want to acquire it closer to the time they would discover it themselves. in order to give more time to get a tech back to us

I will tinker with the language to make the lump sum consideration 40 ec instead of 25 and will make the interest start later with the mega interest starting later still. My goal is not really to collect this money but instead not have them play tricks by researching stuff we already have and continue to delay giving the tech back.

Hercules · September 16, 2003, 19:38

That's better I feel. If they say they can get it from Roze then we might say what's the point of a PACT.

johndmuller · September 16, 2003, 20:40

Cap'n F,

I wasn't saying that they don't owe us a tech, only that I didn't think that it was particularly specified as having to be EthicalCalc, at least not as much as you were making it sound (there might be something we would want more, eh?). Perhaps Cap'n H remembers it better. We definitely have a grievance because the tech was supposed to be one we didn't have and what they did obviously was intended to force us into trading Doc:Flex to them or wait another 10 years for our tech. You could still call their bluff on that and let them worry about researching Doc:Flex again and still owing us a tech, instead of getting Flex plus whatever else it would be and being even. The are quite likely unaware that Roze has Doc:Flex, and so would not realize their possible leverage - in any case if they get it from someone else, they will still owe us that tech.

As to the money, I wasn't trying to get more or less money, only to set our terms so that the penalties (i.e. the interest) didn't kick in until they would have had a chance to research something - like say it would take them 8 years to reseaarch a tech, if we start charging interest after 5 years, it would be a fee rather than a penalty digressing into another tech or for slowing their research rate. As for the amount up front and the interest, I'll leave that up to you, it's just that if the interest is couched in terms of incouraging them to research the next tech promptly (and do one that we want instead of one they want themselves), it should at least be feasible for them to make the deadline. We could even require that we be consulted on their tech choice.

If you are looking for a nice thing to trade them off for a hardline approach bring up to them that there should also be a clause dealing with the possibility of our acquiring somewhere else the tech they are researching for us; say if they started researching intel integrity after Ethical Calc to pay for the second tech, and then we get it from someone else, that should not be held against them (we would probably have to trade that one forward to them too or some other such thing).

johndmuller · September 17, 2003, 05:14

I did an analysis of the 'Borg tech choices before (i.e. what they spurned when choosing Doc:Flex) and after (what the future holds for their next couple of research projects) and the results are in the Cycon whatever thread (edit: it is Cycon 'Dealings'). For some reason, I didn't see this thread when I was looking for a place to post it, most likely because of the title.

Anyway, it appears that they were by no means forced to do Doc:Flex before and if they wanted to, could do the same thing to us again with Doc:Init. Meanwhile, there is a way to get both NonLinear and EthicalCalc out of them, but it would probably be faster to get the second one from someone else, given the necessary machinations and the current state of their research rate, which BTW, would lead to a hefty assessment under Flubbers original plan and might nevertheless lead to hard feelings all around in any case, by the time we get made whole for the original IndAuto deal, given the Doc:Flex fiasco.

Personally, I am now of the opinion that they already owe us big time for all this delay they are putting us through, not to mention the BS with Doc:Flex; they should probably give us another (additional) tech outright (Biogen for example) to make up for it (that would get us pretty much to where Cap'n Herc and I wanted it to be in the first place). All in all, I do not get good vibes from their way of doing business; maybe they need a taste of our way of doing business

.

Don't forget we need to build defensive probes!!!!

Flubber · September 17, 2003, 11:56

THis is the message I sent to the cycon-- Additional flowery language made it too long so I had to send it in two parts but the entire text is here. I tried to ne more diplomatic, I lengthened the time until big interest was payable and tried overall to set a friendlier tone. The message is heavily edited from the one I posted earlier but the elements of the deal are the same.

THis MESSAGE HAS BEEN SENT TO MANIAC

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Greetings to the Honored Mani Alpha-3
External Affairs Function

AS a friend, we see that you are researching doc flex and it is our wish to provide that tech to you for fair compensation. That tech is considered our national treasure and it is with much reluctance that we trade it outside the confidential circle of the the Council of Captains . But the time has come to share this knowledge with our friends.

So the simple question is what can you give us in return for doc flex? As it stands, you "owe" us a tech from previous deals and I believe we would both want to clear up that outstanding obligation as part of this trade round .

I don't think you have any current tech of interest so the obvious compensation for Doc Flex is a tech in the future . That is acceptable in principle but our people feel a little miffed that you chose to research doc flex last time when you knew that a tech was owed to us. Our people felt t it was an unspoken part of the deal that you would research a tech to return to us as soon as possible. However , if we did not nail down that point, its not something to upset our relations over, just something to learn from.

The offer I want to put out there is this:

COMPLETING THE PRIOR DEAL

1. WE send you Doc flex prior to your discovery of it so you can switch to another tech for free. . .

2. You switch to ethical calculus immediately ( if possible) or some TRADE TECH ( if its not) and send said tech to us at the date we request.

***( Note that a "TRADE TECH " is a non-level one tech that we do not have have and which we do not indicate as unacceptable, at the time we send doc flex, as we will acquire it soon . (For example: Doc INI )

COMPENSATION FOR DOC FLEX

OK we would love to trade you doc flex straight up for a tech we want right now. IF you don't have one now, we will accept some TRADE TECH. But the reality is you probably can't get a new tech to us in less than 10 years so our proposal is a TRADE TECH plus 40 ec. This reflects the fact that a tech now is worth more than a tech later and that we are essentially trading for an unknown tech to be given at some unknown future time . Since we are trading for an unknown, we would want the right to reject the first tech you offer and choose among the next two "TRADE TECHS" you acquire. The chosen tech would be passed to us on request.

Guarantees of a fast return

Your choice to research doc flex when a tech was owed us was good negotiating on your part. WE didn't think to bind you to consequences if the tech was not returned in a speedy manner. WE do wish to get a tech back in as soon a time as possible on the doc flex deal and propose two conditions.

1. Interest-- Essentially you will owe us a tech and we would see interest as being applicable if it is not returned as soon as possible . MY operations folks tell me your research is similar to ours so at leat 10 years would be appropriate . WE propose interest of 2 ec per year from years 10-15, increasing to 5 ec per year from years 16-20 and 25 ec per year from years 21 onward ( years counted from the year we send you doc flex). The early interest is minor additional compensation for the delay while the late year interest is designed to make it important to you to complete the deal within an achievable time frame.

2. Mortgage-- we retain a security interest in doc flex until it is paid for . . You may use it to build boats etc but you may not trade it on to anyone else until a " TRADE TECH" is offered to us.

Neither interest or the mortgage apply once you have offered a "TRADE TECH" to us, whether we accept that particular tech or not. In ADDITION, if you make an effort to research a a "TRADE TECH" , neither the mortgage or interest would apply from the time you complete that tech ( and could offer it to us), even if we already acquired it elsewhere in the meantime. You would still owe us a tech but your good faith effort would be enough to end the conditions. Realistically , we would be looking at making a new deal to give you the tech you were researching so we could leapfrog research again.

CONCLUSION

Making a deal is in both our interests. This is a straight deal of doc flex for some future tech unknown tech and a little cash. The cash is there for us because there are scenarios where we might not get a tech back for years and years. We have also tried to be fair in that a good faith effort to return a new tech to us will mean the " Guarantees" section of this offer will be pretty much irrelevant .

We are still trying to forge strong ties but we acknowledge that each side must feel they are getting a benefit from the deal . We do remain open to alternate offers so if you have something to offer, let us know . Throw something in the pot ! I can say that the idea of some unknown tech, years down the road, with no other consideration or conditions would not be viewed as a fair deal by Peace.

Thats the offer. I look forward to your response and hope that this round of trade talks will lead to strengthened relations between our peoples. The benefits of trade are clear and we regard you as our closest friends and trading partners. We look forward to forging even closer ties .

Ambassador Flubber

Chief Sweetalker o' the PEACE

johndmuller · September 17, 2003, 17:54

Very nice, Cap'n/Ambas'dor/SeaLawyer Flubber

.

Flubber · September 17, 2003, 19:18

Thanks cuspidore

I prides meself on closin' dem loopholes dem machine brains tried to exploit

Hercules · September 17, 2003, 19:23

Aye Aye Cap'n F

Flubber · September 18, 2003, 02:52

I received the CYcon response and it was predictable if disappointing

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DocFlex negotiations
Greetings most honoured Ambassador Flubber, and Captain Hercules also online at this moment,

Your communiqué has been reviewed by the Collective, and as head of the External Affairs Functionality I have been asked to provide you our reaction.

The first part of your communiqué was received positively. We would be more than happy to switch our research to Ethical Calculus after you have given us Doctrine: Flexibility, and give that tech to you to finish the Industrial Automation deal.

Some questions were raised about the second part of your communiqué.

In the first paragraph you say you want a tech plus another 40 credits in return for DocFlex. The reason you offer is because you are trading for a tech which you will only get several years down the road.

However in the paragraph below that you present yet another series of conditions and burdens for us, again with as reason because you will only get a tech in return several years down the road.

This apparent double payment you ask for the delay you suffer confuses the analysts we have ordered to investigate your message. So just to be clear we have to ask: Do you want a tech and some interests or mortgage in return for DocFlex, or do you want a tech, interest or mortgage and 40 credits?

As for the proposal itself, we consider it reasonable for us not to trade DocFlex to any other faction we meet until we repay you our debts. We do pose serious questions about your requests for credits. The small advantage we would gain by trading with you does not justify the amount of credits you are asking.

To make our case more clear, we would like to remind you that we will research DocFlex ourselves in a mere five turns. Also we would like to bring to your attention again the fact that both the Believers and Angels possess knowledge of Doctrine : Flexibility. A few years ago, on the External Affairs Functionality's request the Internal Affairs Functionality started to build up an energy credit reserve. In a few turns we will have around 100 to 150 credits. If you cannot or will not offer us a sufficiently beneficial deal around the principle one-tech-for-one-tech, we will use that cash reserve to buy DocFlex from a faction that gives us a better deal.

The External Affairs Functionality thought it had made its position about this deal clear in the past, but let us repeat ourselves:

If you would be willing to provide us data of Doctrine : Flexibility, we are willing to repay you in two possible ways:

1) A lump sum of energy credits. As we can buy DocFlex elsewhere in the near future, we were hoping on a competitive price. Something around 80 credits perhaps?

2) A technology we provide you in the near future, or immediately, depending on your desires. Please note that your argument that you are trading for an unknown tech at some unknown future time is false. We have repeatedly asked you what specific tech you would prefer in return. We of course hope you would ask something of equal value to DocFlex, which is a level 2 tech. Furthermore we have techs available we could offer you in return right away. It is your choice to not accept those techs and wait for us to research another tech instead. Please also note that under this optional deal, we would not pay you one microcredit extra.

We can buy DocFlex from three different factions. Please keep in mind that we are doing you a favour by negotiating with you first, and offering you the ability to tell us freely what techs you would prefer in exchange for DocFlex.

Greetings,

Mani Alpha-3
External Affairs Function

Flubber · September 18, 2003, 02:55

MY initial response to them to keep the converstaion moving

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Re: DocFlex negotiations
Honored Mani Alpha-3
External Affairs Function

I have received your message and will seek instructions from my faction.

I do have a couple of points of explanation and my personal reaction:

1. We are not trying to make a double request for credits. The 40 ec was premised on the idea that you would have to research a new level 2 tech and it would take you around 10-12 years to get that so it was a fee for the use of doc flex until you pay for it . If you can get a tech to us quicker, I would be pleased to recommend dropping this fee. There are scenarios where it could be many more years for us to get a tech back in this deal . Fundamentally even if one agrees that a tech is worth a tech, I can't accept that a tech now is worth the same as a tech 10 years from now. Time matters . . ..

2. The mortgage and the "interest" were totally a result of you folks researching doc flex before completing your trade obligations. It is taking you many many years to meet your obligation and you don't seem to have placed ANY priority at all on completing the prior deal or indicating when it maight be completed. We went out of our way to make it so that these " penalty" elements don't apply if you get a tech to us in a reasonable time. Interest is a pittance until year 15-- your rejection of the interest concept causes me great worry as to when you would intend to return a tech.

3. If you have a level 2 tech to trade or will soon get one , then offer it and we would be pleased to do a one-for one tech deal. Make a concrete offer for a level 2 tech that you know you will have. You want us to request a specific Level 2 tech?? I think we would be delighted with any of them if you could get it to us in a reasonable time.

4. yes you could possibly get doc flex elsewhere ( AIs can be touchy) but we can certainly get all the level 1 techs elsewhere quite easily. We both have other options but we have been coming to you first every time in the interests of the pact .

YOUR OFFER

You are offering us EITHER

a) 80 ec -- I will pass this one on as maybe people will like this-- IT is immediate and concrete.

OR

b) a tech--

immediately-- I think we have everything you have that we want-- IF you can acquire something we don't see, offer it !!!

-- in the future-- this is what we want if there is no immediate tech suitable and available--BUt if that tech will not come for a number of years, is that a fair "one-for one trade"??

while I accept the idea of tech for tech-- I can't accept that a tech now is equal to a tech provided 10 years from now. It just don't seem fair that if we accept your form of proposed tech deal, we give a tech and get nothing back immediately. Put another way, here is no cost to you or benefit to us at the time of the trade.

Ambassador Flubber

johndmuller · September 18, 2003, 05:13

I'm not sure when we gave them the goods for the IndAuto Deal, but it seems like it's been forever. If someone figured that out, it would no doubt make a fine table thumping point in this discussion - "YOU *&(^&$ -*(^&%^IN' BORGS HAVE ALREADY TAKEN ___ *)(*&%IN' YEARS WITHOUT PAYING FOR THE LAST TECHS AND YOU HAVEN'T EVEN STARTED RESEARCHIN' IT FOR US YET YA *(&* %^%^ED FREELOADERS."

Hercules · September 18, 2003, 12:09

I have to say my initial reaction to the Borg response was to tell them to %&&8%4(£"" it, but look a little closer.

Quote:

In a few turns we will have around 100 to 150 credits.

This and a couple of other references indicates they are not yet in a position to purchase it from the AI and anyway are thinking of a purchase maybe 3 years away. That would suit us surely.

As we wanted 3/4 years more to roam the oceans by ourselves( excluding Roze).

Now here's a horrible thought.

Say we traded for Ethical Calc and the PUT placed no restrictions on trading it on
(doubtful perhaps, especially if we place restrictions on Doc:Flex) we could trade it to the Borg provided they researched Nonlinear. If they speed up their research to 5 years, we too would acquire Eth Calc and Non linear within that period.

Didn't someone suggest that leap frog move earlier.

After we got back Non linear from them the Borg would still owe two future tech.

And I like the idea of a research faction owing us two tech. It kinda forges a bond or tech handcuffs.

And as we plan to trade the Hive Doc Flex as well, the only faction they could sell to, would be the Drones and by that stage we may be trading it to the Drones ourselves. What I am saying is, in the three years time, a 'restrictions clause' would be meaningless. When they All get Doc: Flex, it will take them a least one turn to produce their first craft.