September 18, 2003, 12:45
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#1
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Prince
Local Time: 16:55
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 888
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A moral dilemma
Okay, so I've been drunking and its late so bear with me, but I've got this moral and would be interested in people's opinions.
I'm reading news stories and I come across one that says that possibly eight American soldiers were killed in an ambush. My first reaction is ahh sh!t. No matter what I think about the US government, reading about American soldiers being killed is, me being a Canadian, like hearing that a neighbour's son has died. It sucks.
But on a big political scale, if the US has an easy ride in Iraq, that will only encourage American politicians to invade other countries which will cause more death and destruction. So maybe it is better than more American soldiers die now to prevent future wars that will cause more deaths. But wanting that sounds sick because it means that more "neighbour's" sons dying which I don't want.
So what's the solution to this dilemma, or am I just so drunk that I create a false dilemma?
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September 18, 2003, 12:47
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#2
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King
Local Time: 09:55
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try drunking less 
__________________
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
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September 18, 2003, 12:47
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#3
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Emperor
Local Time: 09:55
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It's bad news.
"But on a big political scale, if the US has an easy ride in Iraq, that will only encourage American politicians to invade other countries which will cause ... "
...more countries to become free and democratic.
So it's all bad.
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September 18, 2003, 12:48
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#4
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Emperor
Local Time: 08:55
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No worries, they volounteered to die.
__________________
Rethink Refuse Reduce Reuse
Do It Ourselves
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September 18, 2003, 13:06
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#5
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King
Local Time: 09:55
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No dilemma at all. There is a state of war, and people are dying, civilians and military. Those casualties are a direct consequence of the initial decision to go to war. The dilemma is for those who have to decide what to do next.
__________________
Statistical anomaly.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
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September 18, 2003, 13:10
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#6
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Prince
Local Time: 16:55
Local Date: November 2, 2010
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Posts: 888
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Quote:
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Originally posted by DAVOUT
No dilemma at all. There is a state of war, and people are dying, civilians and military. Those casualties are a direct consequence of the initial decision to go to war. The dilemma is for those who have to decide what to do next.
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I don't know, maybe you're right, but it seems like a bit of cop out. The US is a democratic system so the people who decide are the people, and the people are part of a world community and can be influenced. you know what I mean.
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September 18, 2003, 13:14
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#7
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Deity
Local Time: 16:55
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Re: A moral dilemma
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Tingkai
No matter what I think about the US government, reading about American soldiers being killed is, me being a Canadian, like hearing that a neighbour's son has died. It sucks.
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The way I see it is, a US soldier's life does not value more than an Iraqi soldier's life.
It is tragic. It is also a strong condemnation of Dubya's senseless decision to go to war.
__________________
(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."
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September 18, 2003, 13:15
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#8
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Prince
Local Time: 16:55
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 888
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Re: Re: A moral dilemma
UR: What are you doing up so late?
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September 18, 2003, 13:16
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#9
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CTP1/2 GODDESS
Local Time: 08:55
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Tingy: It's all your fault. Those people died because of that Matzoh ball you didn't eat last year.
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September 18, 2003, 13:16
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#10
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King
Local Time: 09:55
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Tingkai
I don't know, maybe you're right, but it seems like a bit of cop out. The US is a democratic system so the people who decide are the people, and the people are part of a world community and can be influenced. you know what I mean.
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The democracy gives you the power to demote the guy who do not lead as you wish, but it will not make possible to undo what he did. Frustrating, but again no better system.
__________________
Statistical anomaly.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
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September 18, 2003, 15:36
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#11
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Deity
Local Time: 04:55
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With regard to Iraq, Bush led the people as they wished, however. In matters of war and peace, it is much harder to lead the American people where they don't wish to go than you might think.
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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September 18, 2003, 15:38
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#12
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Emperor
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Quote:
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Originally posted by DanS
With regard to Iraq, Bush led the people as they wished, however.
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How many people where asking to invade iraq before he mentioned it?
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Rethink Refuse Reduce Reuse
Do It Ourselves
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September 18, 2003, 15:46
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#13
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Deity
Local Time: 04:55
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The attack Iraq poll number was consistently about 62% from the time of the cease fire ending the first Gulf War to the opening shots of the second Gulf War. It went up to 72% and down to 58% very briefly.
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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September 18, 2003, 15:53
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#14
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Deity
Local Time: 04:55
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Kneel before Grog!
Posts: 17,978
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Quote:
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But on a big political scale, if the US has an easy ride in Iraq, that will only encourage American politicians to invade other countries which will cause more death and destruction. So maybe it is better than more American soldiers die now to prevent future wars that will cause more deaths. But wanting that sounds sick because it means that more "neighbour's" sons dying which I don't want.
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Did it occur to you that if the U.S. has an "easy ride" in Iraq, that just might mean a good result for Iraqis? I doubt it, since IIRC, you're one of those who bought the "war for oil" line.
The thing that might trip up future military adventures is probably the dollar figure, to be honest. Lots of people who were pro-war are appalled at the $87 billion figure. Sure, I think they're morons for thinking this would be cheap, but what can I say? Add in the death toll we've already suffered (or maybe not the overall number, but rather the tempo - 1-2 guys seem to get killed every day, on average), and it's enough to give people pause.
-Arrian
__________________
grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
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September 18, 2003, 15:53
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#15
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Emperor
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Quote:
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Originally posted by DanS
The attack Iraq poll number was consistently about 62% from the time of the cease fire ending the first Gulf War to the opening shots of the second Gulf War. It went up to 72% and down to 58% very briefly.
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Half the population has been wanting another war with Iraq since the last? I thought most americans where just sheep, but I guess they're all wolves. 
__________________
Rethink Refuse Reduce Reuse
Do It Ourselves
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September 18, 2003, 15:57
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#16
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Deity
Local Time: 04:55
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There was a general concensus on "unfinished business." Many people thought the decision to stop where Bush I stopped was a mistake, in retrospect, and that Saddam would never really cooperate with the UN (which would never really make an effort to force him to) and therefore we should just take him out.
Please note that the above is a general outline, and does not reflect my views (some of it, but certainly not all), so don't bother arguing with me over it.
-Arrian
__________________
grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
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September 18, 2003, 16:07
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#17
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Settler
Local Time: 08:55
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Regarding your moral dilema...i can sympathise (but then I too am less than sober). Personally I would always say I valued human life above all else...but in situations like this it cannot be that black and white. I loath the idea of American soldiers dying and cannot even begin to consider the possibility that more should have been killed because then it would make the US less confident in tramping through every country they come across.
But then, if they continue to do this, it inevitably means loss of life on a far larger scale, as it will mean a large death toll in whatever country they happen to invade...so I do not really know. A pointless post..I have confused myself 
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Desperados of the world, unite. You have nothing to lose but your dignity.......
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September 18, 2003, 16:09
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#18
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Deity
Local Time: 04:55
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Join Date: Dec 1969
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Quote:
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Half the population has been wanting another war with Iraq since the last?
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Yes, sir. Much more than half. One of the most consistent poll numbers that I've seen.
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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September 18, 2003, 16:15
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#19
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Prince
Local Time: 08:55
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Human life above all... I'm a love-motived as well as rationality motivated individual. I'm equally sad when anyone, US or Iraqi dies.
War sucks. Blame the donkeys leading the lions.
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"I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
"You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:
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September 18, 2003, 16:26
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#20
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Emperor
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Quote:
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Originally posted by DanS
Yes, sir. Much more than half. One of the most consistent poll numbers that I've seen.
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62% isn't 'much more' than half, especially when considering the margin of error present in all polls.
__________________
Rethink Refuse Reduce Reuse
Do It Ourselves
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September 18, 2003, 16:26
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#21
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Emperor
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Quote:
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62% isn't 'much more' than half,
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In an election, it'd be a landslide 
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September 18, 2003, 17:00
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#22
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King
Local Time: 09:55
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Quote:
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Originally posted by elijah
Human life above all... I'm a love-motived as well as rationality motivated individual. I'm equally sad when anyone, US or Iraqi dies.
War sucks. Blame the donkeys leading the lions.
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I agree 
Make love not war 
*Giovanni Wine imagine a scene of Saddam and Bush making love
Well... ehrrr.. maybe a shake of hands will be enough
Saluti
__________________
"Life is pretty simple: You do some stuff. Most fails. Some works. You do more of what works. If it works big, others quickly copy it. Then you do something else.
The trick is the doing something else." — Leonardo da Vinci
"If God forbade drinking, would He have made wine so good?" - Cardinal Richelieu
"In vino veritas" - Plinio il vecchio
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September 18, 2003, 17:08
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#23
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Settler
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human life above all why the us bombed
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September 18, 2003, 22:50
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#24
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Deity
Local Time: 16:55
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Location: The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
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Re: Re: Re: A moral dilemma
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Tingkai
UR: What are you doing up so late?
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I was going to ask you the same question. 
__________________
(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."
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September 18, 2003, 22:51
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#25
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Deity
Local Time: 16:55
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Join Date: May 1999
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Quote:
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Originally posted by elijah
Human life above all... I'm a love-motived as well as rationality motivated individual. I'm equally sad when anyone, US or Iraqi dies.
War sucks. Blame the donkeys leading the lions.
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Copycat post 
__________________
(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."
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September 18, 2003, 22:56
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#26
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Emperor
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Quote:
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Originally posted by DanS
In matters of war and peace, it is much harder to lead the American people where they don't wish to go than you might think.
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That's such crap.
__________________
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
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September 19, 2003, 01:24
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#27
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Emperor
Local Time: 03:55
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Hope for a speedy end to the war and stabilisation in Iraq and worry about the future later.
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