Please Help the Newb

TheGuitarist · October 4, 2003, 18:33

Hello all,

I've been lurking around here a while now and I've noticed the high level of Civ-skill that you all seem to have, especially Dominae, Arrian, etc. So I was hoping to get a few pointers on my own game.

I consider myself a newb even though I've been playing Civ3 (and Civ2 before that) for more than a year and a half. I can beat the comp about 60% of the time on Regent, having mastered Warlord a while back. But I could still use a lot of help.

I tend to have a hard time in the early middlegame, around the end of the Ancient era. I'm wondering if I'm starting wars too early; see below for more on this. I also need help with city placement and spacing, worker tactics, and tech management. Basically everything.

My current game is mediocre. I'm the Persians, 9 civs, standard or large map (i don't remember which), Pangaea, I think it's 70% water, everything else normal. The landmass is horseshoe-shaped, I'm on the right end.

I took a number of cities from Zululand, my closest neighbor, early on, thanks to a large-scale warrior -> immortal upgrade

. However, I then gradually lost the initiative and lost a number of units to stupid tactical errors, like not including Spearmen in my Immortal stacks. I recently arranged peace in exchange for a couple of cities, reducing them to a handful. Currently, I'm preparing a sneak attack on their new capital with ~10 immortals.

I'm second in the rankings; Egypt (across the sea on the left end of the horseshoe) is first. I'm considering building a crapload of galleys after I wipe Zululand and launching an amphibious invasion. That, or I'll press on to lowest-ranked Babylon, which is above the remnants of Zululand.

So, help me out, please!!

TheGuitarist · October 4, 2003, 18:38

Screenshot of my formerly Zulu holdings:

justjake73 · October 4, 2003, 19:03

I personally wouldn't attack that far away - it would be difficult to defend. You might find yourself embroiled in Egypt and then attacked by the Zulus, and the Egyptians might find an ally in one of those other civs that your flimsy triremes have to sail near to get your reinforcements to the war. It could turn into one big mess.

I would build fortresses in those mountains and then use those immortals to attack the Zulus again.

Harovan · October 4, 2003, 19:06

3 words: Improve your tiles.

You have 28 immortals running, but only 3 workers. Build 20 (yes! I mean 20!) more workers, and build them now. Irrigate your plains, your cities aren't growing. Build roads, that makes you cash to buy techs. You have a well placed FP (leader built?)

, that's a great asset in 450AD. You could, and should have a kickass economy. Build workers. They are, together with settlers, the most important units in the ancient and early med age. Not swordsmen, not horsemen, but workers build your economy.

You have enough Immortals to knock the Zulus out, stop building more. Attack in stacks, Immortals/Pikemen in 2:1 ratio. You can launch an assault on Egypt if you like, but I would say it's not necessary. If you improve your terrain, you can outproduce and outresearch Egypt easily. And it would net you a bunch of hopelessly corrupt cities, anyway. I would consider to take Heliopolis for the furs, and may be a couple of other luxury colonies. I wouldn't take large unproductive areas, but that's just me.

Have fun with your game. It has definitely enough to become a great experience.

vmxa1 · October 4, 2003, 19:09

TheGuitarist three key items
1- city spacing too loose
2- not enough workers
3-still in despotism

TheGuitarist · October 4, 2003, 19:17

Wow, that was fast. Thanks.

jake: good point. But which mountains are you referring to? The ones near Ngome?

Sir Ralph: normally I do build more than 3 workers

but your point is excellent. Will do. Btw, do you normally micromanage your workers? I usually set about half on 'automate - no altering' and then micro the rest for specific jobs.

Harovan · October 4, 2003, 19:22

I wouldn't automate them. I micromanage. YMMV.

vmxa1 · October 4, 2003, 19:22

I see the workers are automated and that just will not be good. One is irrigating and unworked tile, while that city has several worked grassland tiles unimproved.

Getting to Monarchy or Rep will really help your empire produce more.

I did not check to see what the cities were producing, to see if that makes sense and if you have build any granaries or temple or barracks, where it would make sense to do it.

Wars are more fun and can be useful, but you can cripple your empires growth. It is best to make them short and decisive and infrequent.
To that end make workers and settlers in the early phase until you have no room to grow or are threatened. Around 500BC you may want to do some pruning on a neighbor. It depends on many things, but if you are at war in 2000bc, it needs to be for a good reason IMO.

justjake73 · October 4, 2003, 19:27

Quote:

But which mountains are you referring to? The ones near Ngome?

Yes, but also the ones near Hamzaan (?? - I didn't download the game) Always use the terrain to your best defensive advantage, and always prepare for the worst - as in the possibility of someone storming in and taking those plains cities in your north.

vmxa1 · October 4, 2003, 19:33

Quote:

Originally posted by TheGuitarist
jake: good point. But which mountains are you referring to? The ones near Ngome?

I was going to let that remark about fortressing go by.
Now that you have jumped on it, I have to say I seldom see any need to build fortresses. In fact I never build them. That does not mean they are of no value, but it should be rare.

Anyway why do you want to attack Zulus at this time? They do not have anything special on their land that you need right now. You have lots of land that has not been settled and the AI will soon be back filling it for you if you do not get settlers to those spots. The only reason I can see if that Immortals shelve lif is going to expire soon. You also have a few cities with no defenders that are near open land. This means barb camps will be popping up and you will get pillageed.
I would have preferred a couple of those Immortals to be running guard and recon in that open area. Bust those camps for the 25 gold and prevent an uprising.

Theseus · October 4, 2003, 19:50

I din't download the save, and I had the same immediate reaction.

WORKERS, MAN, WORKERS.

You might want to read carver's early game tile improvement threads at CFC.

And, unlike vxma1, I happen to love fortresses... and that means more WORKERS!!

vmxa1 · October 4, 2003, 20:19

Even if you love them, he has no workers in sight to make one.

vmxa1 · October 4, 2003, 20:20

BTW it is Cracker's

http://www.civfanatics.com/doc/civ3/...arts/index.htm

TheGuitarist · October 4, 2003, 21:40

Actually, Theseus, I've already read that.

But I don't think it says much about building a ton of workers...

Anyway, I played another ten turns. 100 years later, I've got 20 workers and two settlers (both on the way to southeastern city sites). Researching The Republic at 20%, 23 turns, 43 gold surplus.

My undefended city in the southeast (a prize from the Zulu peace treaty) was indeed sacked by barbs... three times. Lost a pop point and 17 gold. There are currently 8 Immortals cleaning up in the southeast; unfortunately the Babylonians stuck a city in the far corner. Maybe I'll be able to flip it with temples.

Sent a stack of 20 immortals to take Ulundi and Hlobane from the Zulus; lost one unit. Zulus have two cities left.

F11 tells me I'm ranked first in land area, approval rating, and annual income. Persepolis is #1 in the world with the Colossus and Great Lighthouse. I've surpassed Egypt by five points, according to the histograph.

TheGuitarist · October 4, 2003, 21:57

New acquisitions:

Theseus · October 4, 2003, 21:58

Seems pretty good to me.

Harovan · October 5, 2003, 03:39

Looks much better! Some comments:

- Why are some of your cities building wealth? Let them build something useful, perhaps cathedrals, prebuild wonders, perhaps some more settlers.

- Why are three workers chopping forest east of Persepolis? That tile is not in any city radius, I'm not even sure if any city gets the lumber bonus. I would plop a city there, plain and simple, and the forest is gone.

- Why is the worker mining the ivory plains northeast of Tyre? You have fresh water near Intombe, chop the dye forest there and irrigate through the large basin.

- Don't care about the babylonian city. You can either flip or take it later. Build some more cities, or the AIs will.

- Great game!

WackenOpenAir · October 5, 2003, 11:06

May i give you also 1 suggestion:

instead of building your workers, try to buy (or trade for techs) as many as you can.

The cost of workers and settlers is immense. first realise a citizen is worth at least the 20 shields it could give you in a rush build and see workers and settlers cost at least 30 and 70 shields respectively.

you can buy the workers from your opponents for 30 gold usually on average, even though they are half as fast, it is still a very good price. Gold usually is pretty easy to come by anyway. you can of course also capture them.

My point is simply, try to build as little workers yourself as possible, keeping as many citizens in your cities as you can. try to get your opponents workers.

Usually i do this by checking teh diplomacy screens EVERY turn espescially in early game, and buy workers whenever possible.

Theseus · October 5, 2003, 12:24

WOA, you have to install the latest patch. Mostly due to Aeson (I think), Firaxis realized that buying Workers was an absurdly easy exploit at 30g, and raised the price to around 130g.

Konquest02 · October 5, 2003, 12:29

And even at 130g. it's most of the time worth it, especially while your neighbor is stuck in a difficult position (jungle or hills).

TheGuitarist · October 5, 2003, 12:35

Thanks all.

Sir Ralph: I didn't realize none of my cities would get the lumber bonus. How does that work? You only get the bonus if the tile is inside your territory?

Harovan · October 5, 2003, 13:04

I think only cities, which have the forest in their cityradius, qualify for the lumber bonus, and only if they aren't producing a wonder. Cities that got a lumber bonus, or shields from disbanding units, cannot be switched to a wonder anymore.

Datajack Franit · October 5, 2003, 13:12

Use the damn workers!

Theseus · October 5, 2003, 14:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Konquest02
And even at 130g. it's most of the time worth it, especially while your neighbor is stuck in a difficult position (jungle or hills).

True... it's just not the exploit that it used to be. And, again, it provides all the more reason to invest in building up your own native Worker force. I fully agree with SR, 20 Workers (or more!) are called for here.

Remember... this is "Civ3: The Worker Game."

vmxa1 · October 5, 2003, 14:19

I read some where that forrest chops will go to the nearest qualified city, but I have never been brave enough to verify it. The point is still good, work tiles that are in the city radius.
You almost cannot have too many workers, until after you have RR all your land.

ChrisiusMaximus · October 5, 2003, 16:13

Hi Guitar man I DL your second save and took a look at it, I asked Shaka what he would give for peace and got Monarchy, Engineering, world map, Umtata and 3 gold

Couldnt persuade him to let go of Republic. Opened a embassy with the Babs and noticed only three spearmen protecting the capitol, IMO you should focus on attacking the babs when youre ready. By ready I mean switch governments and build some more pikemen, temples and Libraries. I think you have got enough barracks but more are always useful. The Babs are building Sun Tzu (along with several others) and if they get it first it will make them an even juicier target, plus the furs and inscense in the north of their territory.

It will be easier to prosecute a war with your neighbours than with Egypt. I think you need to spend a whiles improving your territory and building up your defensive forces and culture before your next war but you could go straight in with all those Immortals you got stockpiled, just without pikemen for support

I think everyone is right to say get more workers but you have done okay there and have enough for now so I would change build orders to Pikes or Temples

Yahweh Sabaoth · October 6, 2003, 13:14

I have not had a chance to download the game - I'm viewing this thread at work - but I just wanted to say, skip temples, build libraries! Libraries add to your research, generate more culture and are cheap for the Persians (as with all scientific civs). So, libraries galore!

All the points made above are excellent. I might digress from researching Republic, however. Republic goes around pretty quick. Monarchy will be fine if you've got war on the mind, and at Regent, building enough libraries and trading well, Monarchy will allow you to be the tech leader - once you've taken out your Northern neighbors, especially Babylon.

Babylon can give you a real run for the money if you let them live. They are often your chief competitor for Wonder building, and they always seem to have the resources to defind their empire to an insane degree. Your immortals are still good. Send up past the Zulus into Babylon. Destroy Babylon and emerge on top. With all those industrious workers, you can have a dual core which will be the envy of the world and basically assure your success, regardless of what victory type you crave (except Diplomatic I suppose, there's no garuntee of that).