Thread Tools
Old October 9, 2003, 16:30   #1
klesh
King
 
klesh's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 2,048
Massachusetts, Jesus and Whiskey
So, the Massachusetts House just voted down a bill proposing to allow liquor sales on Sunday. An old set of laws from Puritan times called the Blue Laws outlawed the sale of alchohol on Sundays and a whole slew of other outdated things. Sale of liquor is not prohibited per se, but rather severely restricted on Sundays. If a town is 10 miles from the border of New Hampshire or Vermont (2 states that allow Sunday liquor sales), then their package stores are allowed to be open. Also, package stores throughout the state are allowed to be onpen on Sundays between Thanksgiving and New Year's.



What the hell kind of BS is this? I mean really. What does Jesus have to do with me wanting to get a sixer after a hard day's work on a Sunday. What if there are people spontaneously arriving to your house, and you need to do a little on the spot entertaining? What if you want the freedom to buy alchohol any day of the week you damn well please?

So I read an article about the vote, its pretty interesting. Lots of spoecial intrest groups ploying in this one. The Christians had a hand in it, as well as town who are 'privaledged' to be able to make extra tax $ by their favourable location to the border.


Boston Globe article.

Does your state or province restrict liquor sales on Tuesdays or anything like that?
__________________
It's a wonder that you still know how to breathe.
klesh is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 16:35   #2
SlowwHand
inmate
Civilization II MultiplayerApolytoners Hall of FameGameLeague
Deity
 
SlowwHand's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 27,637
Texas went through a couple of years of Blue Laws.
Some stores closed on Saturday rather than Sunday.
Not JUST booze. Most consumer goods not related to food and essentials.
__________________
Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
SlowwHand is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 16:40   #3
MrFun
Emperor
 
MrFun's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Illinois
Posts: 8,595
The colonial Blue Laws were also used to give Amerindians in that region, the choice between converting to Christianity or being burned at the stake.
__________________
STFU and then GTFO!
MrFun is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 16:41   #4
Shi Huangdi
Emperor
 
Shi Huangdi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 4,213
Pennsylvania also has some of the most severe alcohol laws in the country, its really annoying.
__________________
"I'm moving to the Left" - Lancer

"I imagine the neighbors on your right are estatic." - Slowwhand
Shi Huangdi is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 16:43   #5
klesh
King
 
klesh's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 2,048
But the fact that this law has no basis in reality leads me to think it should be outed, no?
__________________
It's a wonder that you still know how to breathe.
klesh is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 16:45   #6
Arrian
PtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?
Deity
 
Arrian's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Kneel before Grog!
Posts: 17,978
I live in CT. No beer/liquor sold after 8pm Monday - Sat, no sales at all on Sundays. Not ideal, but really, one can plan ahead.

-Arrian
__________________
grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
Arrian is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 16:47   #7
SlowwHand
inmate
Civilization II MultiplayerApolytoners Hall of FameGameLeague
Deity
 
SlowwHand's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 27,637
MrFun, you're bastardizing history again.

http://www.snopes.com/language/colors/bluelaws.htm


Origins:
The term "blue laws" originally applied to laws enacted by the Puritans in seventeenth-century Connecticut to regulate moral behavior (especially what people must or must not do on the Sabbath), laws which often called for rather harsh punishments to be applied to offenders. Blue laws typically specified penalties for moral offenses such as failure to attend church on the Sabbath; lying, swearing, and drunkenness; and the playing of games (such as cards, dice, and shuffleboard) in public. They also mandated more severe punishments for crimes committed on the Sabbath and regulated the sale and consumption of alcohol. Violators of blue laws might be assessed monetary fines, be whipped, be forced to spend time in the stocks, have body parts burned or cut off, or even receive the death penalty. As the influence of the colonial Puritan theocracies declined after the American Revolution, blue laws were generally abolished or went unenforced, although the temperance movements which began in the late nineteenth century brought a new round of legislation intended to regulate private conduct by banning the sale of cigarettes and alcohol, prohibiting amusements and "unnecessary labor" on Sundays, and providing for local censorship of arts and entertainment (such as books, plays, and films).

Many remnants of "blue laws" survived into the late twentieth century as seemingly nonsensical patchworks of regulations about which types of businesses could operate on Sundays and what items they could sell. Thus various jurisidictions might have regulations which, on Sundays, prohibited the sale of hammers but not nails, forbade trading in horses while allowing automobile dealerships to remain open, or prohibited the purchase of alcohol at liquor stores but not grocery stores.

Also puzzling to latter-day Americans was the term "blue laws" itself. Why were these regulations called "blue laws"? With no obvious explanation at hand, we invented a satisfying one: these types of laws had originally been printed on blue paper or bound in books with blue covers.

Not so. No one has turned up seventeenth-century sheets of blue paper or blue-bound books containing these laws, nor has anyone found any seventeenth-century references to these regulations as "blue laws." The earliest recorded use of the term didn't appear until well over a century later, when the Reverend Samuel Peters' 1781 book, General History of Connecticut, described onerous colonial laws in the following manner:

Blue Laws; i.e. bloody Laws; for they were all sanctified with whipping, cutting off the ears, burning the tongue, and death.

(A variant of this tale posits a self-referential origin for the term by claiming that Peters' book itself was printed on blue paper!)

Although Peters maintained that early colonists did refer to these laws as "blue laws," he did not claim that the name was taken from the paper they were printed on, nor is there any evidence of an earlier usage of the term than his own. Since parts of Peters' book (such as his list of forty-five putative "blue laws") have since been found unreliable, it's possible he may simply have invented the term "blue laws" himself. If not, the term most likely derived from an eighteenth-century usage of the word "blue" as a disparaging reference to something perceived as "rigidly moral" (a "bluenose," for example, is one who advocates a rigorous moral code), not from the color of the material on which the laws themselves were printed.
__________________
Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
SlowwHand is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 16:53   #8
Arrian
PtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?
Deity
 
Arrian's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Kneel before Grog!
Posts: 17,978
Quote:
Many remnants of "blue laws" survived into the late twentieth century as seemingly nonsensical patchworks of regulations about which types of businesses could operate on Sundays and what items they could sell.
Yep, that sounds about right.

-Arrian
__________________
grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
Arrian is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 17:15   #9
MrFun
Emperor
 
MrFun's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Illinois
Posts: 8,595
Quote:
Originally posted by SlowwHand
MrFun, you're bastardizing history again.

http://www.snopes.com/language/colors/bluelaws.htm


Origins:
The term "blue laws" originally applied to laws enacted by the Puritans in seventeenth-century Connecticut to regulate moral behavior (especially what people must or must not do on the Sabbath), laws which often called for rather harsh punishments to be applied to offenders. Blue laws typically specified penalties for moral offenses such as failure to attend church on the Sabbath; lying, swearing, and drunkenness; and the playing of games (such as cards, dice, and shuffleboard) in public. They also mandated more severe punishments for crimes committed on the Sabbath and regulated the sale and consumption of alcohol. Violators of blue laws might be assessed monetary fines, be whipped, be forced to spend time in the stocks, have body parts burned or cut off, or even receive the death penalty. As the influence of the colonial Puritan theocracies declined after the American Revolution, blue laws were generally abolished or went unenforced, although the temperance movements which began in the late nineteenth century brought a new round of legislation intended to regulate private conduct by banning the sale of cigarettes and alcohol, prohibiting amusements and "unnecessary labor" on Sundays, and providing for local censorship of arts and entertainment (such as books, plays, and films).

Many remnants of "blue laws" survived into the late twentieth century as seemingly nonsensical patchworks of regulations about which types of businesses could operate on Sundays and what items they could sell. Thus various jurisidictions might have regulations which, on Sundays, prohibited the sale of hammers but not nails, forbade trading in horses while allowing automobile dealerships to remain open, or prohibited the purchase of alcohol at liquor stores but not grocery stores.

Also puzzling to latter-day Americans was the term "blue laws" itself. Why were these regulations called "blue laws"? With no obvious explanation at hand, we invented a satisfying one: these types of laws had originally been printed on blue paper or bound in books with blue covers.

Not so. No one has turned up seventeenth-century sheets of blue paper or blue-bound books containing these laws, nor has anyone found any seventeenth-century references to these regulations as "blue laws." The earliest recorded use of the term didn't appear until well over a century later, when the Reverend Samuel Peters' 1781 book, General History of Connecticut, described onerous colonial laws in the following manner:

Blue Laws; i.e. bloody Laws; for they were all sanctified with whipping, cutting off the ears, burning the tongue, and death.

(A variant of this tale posits a self-referential origin for the term by claiming that Peters' book itself was printed on blue paper!)

Although Peters maintained that early colonists did refer to these laws as "blue laws," he did not claim that the name was taken from the paper they were printed on, nor is there any evidence of an earlier usage of the term than his own. Since parts of Peters' book (such as his list of forty-five putative "blue laws") have since been found unreliable, it's possible he may simply have invented the term "blue laws" himself. If not, the term most likely derived from an eighteenth-century usage of the word "blue" as a disparaging reference to something perceived as "rigidly moral" (a "bluenose," for example, is one who advocates a rigorous moral code), not from the color of the material on which the laws themselves were printed.
According to the documentary series, "500 Nations" one part of the Blue Laws concerned itself with Amerindians who were violating Christian customs by praticing their own customs.

Blue Laws consisted of a whole range of laws concerning moral behavior -- including killing Amerindians for not conforming to Christian customs.
__________________
STFU and then GTFO!
MrFun is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 17:18   #10
mrmitchell
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG RoleplayCall to Power Democracy GameInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamNationStatesPtWDG2 Tabemono
King
 
mrmitchell's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,394
Re: Massachusetts, Jesus and Whiskey
Quote:
Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh
If a town is 10 miles from the border of New Hampshire or Vermont (2 states that allow Sunday liquor sales), then their package stores are allowed to be open.
Of course, if that were true, then land 10 miles or farther into Massachusetts would be a barren wasteland, with a mysterous metropolis starting at exactly the border to exactly ten miles in.
__________________
meet the new boss, same as the old boss
mrmitchell is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 17:18   #11
Japher
Emperor
 
Japher's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Mu Mu Land
Posts: 6,570
We have a lot of Armenians here in California, they're nice people I wouldn't want to kill them... Laws here are good; alcohol, beer in wine sold in the gorcery stores (unlike most states), and sold everyday from 6am-2am, no sales after 2am... You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here..
__________________
Monkey!!!
Japher is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 17:27   #12
SlowwHand
inmate
Civilization II MultiplayerApolytoners Hall of FameGameLeague
Deity
 
SlowwHand's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 27,637
Where do you see that, MrFun?
Cite me something. You'd ask me if I didn't do it voluntarily.
I'm not trying to harrass you, I'm just saying I think you bend the truth in history a lot.
__________________
Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
SlowwHand is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 17:30   #13
MrFun
Emperor
 
MrFun's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Illinois
Posts: 8,595
Read the book titled "500 Nations" or watch the part of the documentary video, "500 Nations" discussing the colonial period of the northeast.

There, they discuss how one of the Blue Laws sought to eradicate Amerindian cultural traditions.
__________________
STFU and then GTFO!
MrFun is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 17:45   #14
Bugs ****ing Bunny
Emperor
 
Bugs ****ing Bunny's Avatar
 
Local Time: 11:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Howling at the moon
Posts: 4,421
Quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
I live in CT. No beer/liquor sold after 8pm Monday - Sat, no sales at all on Sundays. Not ideal, but really, one can plan ahead.

-Arrian
Does that apply to bars and clubs?
__________________
The genesis of the "evil Finn" concept- Evil, evil Finland
Bugs ****ing Bunny is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 18:36   #15
Dr Strangelove
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Dr Strangelove's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: USA
Posts: 3,197
Perhaps the term "blue nose" was used to indicate the coldness of puritanical abstinence in contrast to the cheery red warmth of a good toddy quafed by a warm hearth as enjoyed by CofE types?
__________________
"I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!
Dr Strangelove is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 18:39   #16
SlowwHand
inmate
Civilization II MultiplayerApolytoners Hall of FameGameLeague
Deity
 
SlowwHand's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 27,637
Sawbones, you've evolved into quite the little jokester, haven't you?
__________________
Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
SlowwHand is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 18:53   #17
MichaeltheGreat
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Apolyton Grand Executioner
 
MichaeltheGreat's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Fenway Pahk
Posts: 1,755
Quote:
Originally posted by MrFun


According to the documentary series, "500 Nations" one part of the Blue Laws concerned itself with Amerindians who were violating Christian customs by praticing their own customs.

Blue Laws consisted of a whole range of laws concerning moral behavior -- including killing Amerindians for not conforming to Christian customs.
Had nothing much to do with Christian customs - practiciing their own cultures/customs was for both sides a defiance of white order and authority. It was about a very secular issue of domination of the territory.

However, since the term "Blue laws" is of such vague and generally valueless and non-contemporaneous origin, you can apply it to whatever floats your boat.
__________________
Bush-Cheney 2008. What's another amendment between friends?
*******
When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all.
MichaeltheGreat is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 19:05   #18
SlowwHand
inmate
Civilization II MultiplayerApolytoners Hall of FameGameLeague
Deity
 
SlowwHand's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 27,637
It's not vague. It originated in Europe and was brought here.
All it takes is enough gumption to look it up.
__________________
Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
SlowwHand is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 19:08   #19
MichaeltheGreat
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Apolyton Grand Executioner
 
MichaeltheGreat's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Fenway Pahk
Posts: 1,755
Quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
Read the book titled "500 Nations" or watch the part of the documentary video, "500 Nations" discussing the colonial period of the northeast.

There, they discuss how one of the Blue Laws sought to eradicate Amerindian cultural traditions.
So they take an imprecise term of uncertain origin and attribute one of many aspects of colonial policy towards the Indians to it?

Cool. I love editorial history.
__________________
Bush-Cheney 2008. What's another amendment between friends?
*******
When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all.
MichaeltheGreat is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 19:12   #20
Dr Strangelove
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Dr Strangelove's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: USA
Posts: 3,197
Quote:
Originally posted by Japher
We have a lot of Armenians here in California, they're nice people I wouldn't want to kill them... Laws here are good; alcohol, beer in wine sold in the gorcery stores (unlike most states), and sold everyday from 6am-2am, no sales after 2am... You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here..
Developing a touch of dyslexia are we? Or was it just a slip of the fingers on the keyboard. Amerinds are the native peoples of the Americas. Armenians are one of the nations inhabiting the Caucasus Mountain region.
__________________
"I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!
Dr Strangelove is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 19:14   #21
Verto
Apolyton Storywriters' GuildNationStatesMac
King
 
Verto's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,824
It would be a shame if you had to go an entire DAY without purchasing alcohol.
Verto is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 19:16   #22
SlowwHand
inmate
Civilization II MultiplayerApolytoners Hall of FameGameLeague
Deity
 
SlowwHand's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 27,637
Japher. He be confused a lot.
__________________
Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
SlowwHand is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 19:22   #23
klesh
King
 
klesh's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 2,048
Quote:
Originally posted by Verto
It would be a shame if you had to go an entire DAY without purchasing alcohol.

What if Sunday is the only day I want to buy it?
__________________
It's a wonder that you still know how to breathe.
klesh is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 22:45   #24
MrFun
Emperor
 
MrFun's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Illinois
Posts: 8,595
Quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


So they take an imprecise term of uncertain origin and attribute one of many aspects of colonial policy towards the Indians to it?

Cool. I love editorial history.
It's not editorial history.

But then again, maybe any historical scholarly work that is not WASPish or Anglophilic does not entail serious scholarly work, eh, MTG?

Do you play along the old cliche that any historical work that portrays relations between European colonists and Amerindians more accurately as just left-wing, political correctness, mumbo jumbo?

__________________
STFU and then GTFO!
MrFun is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 23:32   #25
mrmitchell
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG RoleplayCall to Power Democracy GameInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamNationStatesPtWDG2 Tabemono
King
 
mrmitchell's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,394
I can see it now: Huge migrations from the inner state to the borders where alcohol sales is legal. Busses filled with people ready to purchase some booze. I could start a transport company and become rich in days! I'd better start before anyone else catches on to my scheme.
__________________
meet the new boss, same as the old boss
mrmitchell is offline  
Old October 10, 2003, 00:03   #26
Drake Tungsten
Deity
 
Drake Tungsten's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: In the closet...
Posts: 10,604
Quote:
Japher. He be confused a lot.
I'm confused by that ungainly and racist word as well.
__________________
KH FOR OWNER!
ASHER FOR CEO!!
GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!
Drake Tungsten is offline  
Old October 10, 2003, 00:20   #27
DanielXY
Civilization III MultiplayerCivilization III PBEM
Warlord
 
Local Time: 11:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 196
"No more booze! Aaaargh! Evacuate the citys!"
__________________
If its no fun why do it? Dance like noone is watching...
DanielXY is offline  
Old October 10, 2003, 00:21   #28
MrFun
Emperor
 
MrFun's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Illinois
Posts: 8,595
Quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

I'm confused by that ungainly and racist word as well.
Do we really need to go down this road again?

If you don't like the word Amerindian, then just revert to the racist word that confuses people with people of India -- Indians.
__________________
STFU and then GTFO!
MrFun is offline  
Old October 10, 2003, 00:27   #29
Drake Tungsten
Deity
 
Drake Tungsten's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: In the closet...
Posts: 10,604
I prefer American Aboriginal Persons.
__________________
KH FOR OWNER!
ASHER FOR CEO!!
GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!
Drake Tungsten is offline  
Old October 10, 2003, 00:41   #30
Imran Siddiqui
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameAge of Nations TeamPolyCast Team
 
Imran Siddiqui's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: on the corner of Peachtree and Peachtree
Posts: 30,698
Mr Fun, just admit you've been schooled and move on .
__________________
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
Imran Siddiqui is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:15.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team