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Old October 13, 2003, 12:35   #1
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-**- GOOGLIE -**- Please look into the Borgs' Behavior
Googlie,

I believe that you should look into the recent behaviou of the Borg with an eye to removing their team from the game.

To summarize their latest stunt:
-they have on two (and maybe now a third) separate occasions chosen to research techs which we already have (and which they knew we already had) while under obligation to repay us techs from prior deals. While this is of course allowable, it is by no means 'nice' and one must assume that they realize this to be at the edge of decent behavior.
-we most recently offered them the tech they are currently working on and referenced a message in the trade box to them which said: "See Ambassador Flubber's Communication". The message (here) clearly stated that they were not to accept the tech unless there was a diplomatic/trade deal forthcoming
-this method was chosen in the interest of keeping the game moving - as opposed to keeping everyone waiting by requesting a lengthy delay while details were negotiated; we sent off this package without hearing back from them confident that they would respect this arrangement and that they would not abuse the situation.
-they accepted the tech and inserted this message into the trade box: "??? As far as I know, we have not received any communications from Ambassador Flubber?"; they later sent this as well, which asks about the pre-accepted tech and also acknowledges reading the trade box message

Our offer of the tech in this instance and trust in the good faith of the other factions in general is necessary if this game is to proceed in a reasonable pace - if irresponsible factions are allowed to run roughshod over these needful facilitations, it will necessitate lengthy and time consuming negotiations and internal discussions during virtually every factions' turn as conducting them between turns will no longer be safe.

Now it is perfectly legal AFAIK to lie and negotiate in bad faith in this game. However, engaging in sleazy behavior and justifying it by supposed ignorance of messages sent to their own teammates is not acceptable. The turn players need to assume that all their individual members will be held accountable for the official actions of the faction; they are doing it the other way around - claiming that the faction is not responsible for anything the individuals may do. The game as a whole cannot survive an attitude like this; one or two impetuous players will get everyone else pissed off at whatever otherwise respectable players might exist in the background on that team. I am right now considering widespread slander of the entire list of Borg faction members (by name) in the public forums as PBEM players of untrustworthy character.

One hopes that this campaign of misdirection and pointing fingers in circles is not , as it appears to be, a conscious strategy on the part of the Borg Collective to behave poorly and blame it on absent members. If so, then you, Googlie, are a part of it too, as you recently suggested in one of our threads that we make this Doc:init deal.

I believe that this has gone too far and that the Borg team has demonstrated that they are a detriment to the game. I suggest that you inform them that their participation in no longer in the interests of the game and that you play out their turns for a while until you can fulfill their obligations to us and then disband their bases or allow another set of people to take over their faction.

Their irresponsible play has not really impacted any other factions besides ourselves to any great extent, but our activities have been severely impacted by operating under the assumption that we were dealing with a set of people who were making decisions that they were standing behind, rather than sleazy behavior they would then deny responsibility for. In addition to the several rounds of unfulfilled trade obligations, our dealings with the other factions has been colored by our existing relations with the Borg in the form of deals we did or did not make with the others due to expectations that the Borg players were responsible members of the PBEM community. Our reputations have also been diminished by association with these irresponsible players. We would volunteer ourselves in the role of caretaker for their disbanded faction as we are the injured party, but would imagine that the other factions would find that to be a bit or overcompensation.

Perhaps you should issue a notice in the main forum that an investigation is under weigh, so that the others do not take this unsportmanlike action of the Borg as a matter of our doing and hold us responsible for this further delay of the game.

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Old October 13, 2003, 14:43   #2
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Johndmuller

I would agree with your most recent complaint. The previous play while sharp, did not cross the line into cheating IMHO. Their latest action does. The preacceptance of a tech in the diplo box is a standard method in PBEM play so that game mechanics do not stand in the way of concluding a trade. Everyone I ever played seemed to understand that TAKING the tech was not roleplaying or fun but was an obvious cheat.

My personal view is that if this is not understaood in this game, and the borg sanctioned for their actions, I will no longer wish to be associated with this game and end my involvement. It does not matter one whit to me if this particular item is listed in the rules of this game . . . it is so obviously a cheat that it does not matter.
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Old October 13, 2003, 18:18   #3
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Chaunk from the cyco sent me this PM and indicated he is quitting their faction. It clarifies that their failure to complete tech deals was intentional . . . I have his permission to reproduce this here


------------------------------------------------

As a member of the CyCon (Although somewhat nominally recently, at not at all now, see later) I would like to pass on my personal apology for the treatment of your faction in the demo game. Personnally, I felt we were not acting in the way pact brothers should. My personal opinion is that a diplomacy deal is a deal, and should be honoured to the end. We made several deals, almost all of which involved far more giving on your part and far less on the CyCon's part. And the discussion reflected the fact that we had no intention of following up on the deal.

This I find completely unacceptable.

As such I have left the CyCon. This message hasn't been posted in the CyCon forum, nor will it be, although I will be sending a similar PM to Maniac.

I believe the final straw was the accepting of Doc:Ini. As you said, this is standard practice, and any queries should have been straightened out. In fact, they were not even brought up with you to my knowledge.

My apologies, I wish you and PEACE all the best.

Chaunk, former Omicron-8.
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Old October 13, 2003, 18:21   #4
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and Maniac has tried to gloss this all over-- In light of chaunk's message I think we can put this down as the bull crap it is

--------------------------------------------------------

Hi Flubber,

It was not "our plan all along". As I stated in my PM, we wanted to be Pactmates, and to hold it together. However we did not like being played off against other factions, and did not like the way deals were brokered between us. The decision was more for the sake of our stress than for in-game reasons. I do not think we broke Pact easily: we have had a rocky relationship since the start, and it was becoming more and more untenable. As you said, you have not felt like pactmates either for a long time. With us both feeling like that, it seemed that the most logical decision was to cut our losses and reduce to a treaty.

While you had no notice of DBTS's inactivity, we did mention it when apologizing for the last mix-up regarding tech choice, due to DBTS not being the most active member of our forum. He posts occasionally at the moment, however we hope he will soon be back to his old active self. What this led too, was us having the turn without knowing of the PM from you. I PMed you to find out. However Drogue, as Prime Function, stated that he "would not delay our turn for PEACE again". While the Prime Function is able to play when he wishes, he was going against our constitution by going against the opinion of the masses who wanted to wait for an explanation from PEACE. Therefore he has been temporarily removed as Prime Function and has been put before a disciplinary committee. We are sorry for his actions. What would you like in recompense? We are currently researching HEC, and will transmit to you when completed to complete the last deal.

That does not mean however that Drogue cheated by accepting Doc:Ini. He did not know the tech was not a gift. What else was he to assume when we had no communication regarding it? As I told in the previous paragraph, Drogue didn't want to stall our turn again, so he just played and hoped it would be worked out later. He did not think it was to be worked out before acceptance, as we had not received communication and did not expect you to think it could all be worked out within the 48 hours of our turn.
It is not 'always' understood that pre-accepted techs shouldn't be accepted, since we did not understand it automatically. That may have to do with there not being any PBEM veterans in our team. As far as I know, if you offer a tech, pre-accepted, then you expect it to be taken. I am sorry if we misunderstood your intention, but the rules we agreed for this DG did not state anything about not accepting pre-accepted techs in the diplomacy box.

Friendly greetings,

Second Function Mani Alpha-3
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Old October 13, 2003, 18:35   #5
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This (Chaunk PM) casts their ( Borg) actions and behaviour in a more serious light. And I agree with Flubber the earlier stuff was sharp practice but the latest behaviour goes beyond the boundary.
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Old October 13, 2003, 19:01   #6
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Old October 13, 2003, 20:57   #7
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Old October 13, 2003, 21:51   #8
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Googs,

I was mostly being flip, as I didn't think that you were a party to any unsavory behavior, but given Chaunk's message to Flubber, I think that your post was marginal at best, as you must have known of their deliberate deception and your post certainly implied to me that they were honorable people to deal with, which has now been exposed as completely untrue. As you can see in the posts you attached, Flameflash drew a similar inference. The best spin I can put on your position is that you were unwittingly used by the Borg yourself.

I stand by my position that they should be expelled from this game. I doubt that you could broker a deal that would be acceptable to either faction, let alone both.
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Old October 13, 2003, 21:54   #9
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Old October 14, 2003, 00:55   #10
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Quote:
While the Prime Function is able to play when he wishes, he was going
against our constitution by going against the opinion of the masses who wanted to wait for an explanation from PEACE. Therefore he has been temporarily removed as Prime Function and has been put before a disciplinary committee. We are sorry for his actions.
What would you like in recompense? We are currently researching HEC,
and will transmit to you when completed to complete the last deal.
my emphasis.
Ambassador Flubber see what you can get by way of recompense as they seem to be offering it. A large amount of ecs would help us maybe buy Non Linear from Miriam. If you can get a restriction on the building MCC that would be useful. The turn before last they were trying to build VW and they might switch as the VW is now built.

Anyway in my view they are the bigger losers out of this.
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Old October 14, 2003, 02:49   #11
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They are surely losers as it is, but we shall show them further depths.
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Old October 14, 2003, 09:05   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hercules


Ambassador Flubber see what you can get by way of recompense as they seem to be offering it. A large amount of ecs would help us maybe buy Non Linear from Miriam. If you can get a restriction on the building MCC that would be useful. The turn before last they were trying to build VW and they might switch as the VW is now built.

Anyway in my view they are the bigger losers out of this.

I will try but the reality is that I don't know that I believe them when they said that . .. I will see if its possible to repair this relationship
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Old October 14, 2003, 10:19   #13
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Googs,

Quote:
Originally posted by Googlie
Accepting a 'pre-accepted' tech offer and then cancelling pact
The question was put to me:
"is this allowed, or is it cheating"
I ruled that this is a legal, permitted maneouver. Unsavoury pactbrother behaviour, to be sure, but permissible.
The closest PBEM rule is the one that covers accepting pending trades before declaring vendetta (thus denying the tech to the other party), which is not the case in this instance.
Googlie
Just for the record, Googlie the violation as I originally saw it was that they Accepted the 'pre-accepted' tech offer despite the clear language in the parallel email message
Quote:
NOte that doc ini is preaccepted in our diplomacy box but should not be accepted by you until we reach a deal !!
... said email message which was referred to in the trade dialog box. They claimed (or still do claim for all I know) that they did not receive the email and do not attempt to explain why they ignored the portion of the message in the trade dialog box (except that they acknowledge that message by responding something to the effect of 'what message?'). Please note that cancellation of the pact was not the sin that I was originally complaining about, it was accepting the tech without adhering to the conditions. I consider this to be a most serious violation. Allowing this to become acceptable practice would undermine one of the more common and mutually beneficial methods of conducting trades, as such dishonorable behavior as was exhibited here would apparently be blessed.

The fact that it later turns out that they were in possession of the email the whole time and were knowingly performing this violation and lying about it to boot and had been following similar ruses viz-a-viz falsely claiming email failure and/or missing key members is completely over the top.

I continue to be amazed that you do not appreciate the basic violation and as to the rest, .....

On top of this, you find it necessary to attack us - where the hell are you coming from.

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Old October 14, 2003, 16:39   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by johndmuller
Please note that cancellation of the pact was not the sin that I was originally complaining about, it was accepting the tech without adhering to the conditions. I consider this to be a most serious violation. Allowing this to become acceptable practice would undermine one of the more common and mutually beneficial methods of conducting trades, as such dishonorable behavior as was exhibited here would apparently be blessed.
JDM - I have e-mailed you as I think it's your trust in me that is the key determinant if I continue as CMN.

But answer me this:

"If the CyCon that turn had accepted the tech as well as accepting all the attached conditions, then next turn abrogated the pact and told you that they no longer felt constrained by those conditions would you still be shouting "cheat" or just be simmering inside at the duplicitous CyCon"

Quote:
I continue to be amazed that you do not appreciate the basic violation and as to the rest, .....
See above question I pose

Quote:
On top of this, you find it necessary to attack us - where the hell are you coming from.
I don't rank duplicity - it either is or isn't. But see my e-mail to you

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Old October 14, 2003, 18:49   #15
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I have responded to Googlie's email expressing my disdain for the Borg and my undying love for the CMN Googlie.

I do not, and never did believe that Googlie did anything improper (misguided maybe, but definitely not improper); my regretably provokative remarks were rather intended as a wry suggestion that he be more careful about the "appearances of impropriety" (I am from Washington DC, you know). Obviously, it took off from there and lead to excessively zealous comments on each other's style, character, good looks and preferences in ice cream flavors.

On the issue of the Borg, I respectfully disagree (completely) with the CMN's rulings, but not his right to make them, or the integrity of his process in this particular case - it is not his fault that he was brainwashed by the Borg, look at the dysfunctional relationship we have had with them.

I would hope that at some point this issue could be reviewed, minus the emotional content, if that is possible (which seems unlikely at this moment given the unfortunate linkage with the question of Googlie staying or going). I am firmly convinced of the merits of our position and I would imagine that Googlie would accept our right to disagree with his position - perhaps we can have one of those imfamous official polls on the subject eventually.

Sorry for any unpleasantries this episode may have caused any of you.
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Old October 15, 2003, 02:26   #16
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And in turn I apologize for probably over-reacting to my perceived "slander' at jdm's hands. With hindsight we should prolly have settled it between our two selves rather than going through the resignation/ retraction route

(a result of which is permanent deletion of many posts that I considered useful - as well as removal from my uploads of some pretty key images)

Some key "takeaways" for me are:

Unpalatable as it might be for some, I will consult Tass on every request for a ruling in future. Having a second head to bounce things off can be invaluable

I will strive not to let my preconceptions or desire for certain outcomes determine any advice given - or witheld (and in this regard, in the interests of fairness, I posted a similar message to every faction as was put in your forum thread here

If I have an issue with any team member of any faction I'll try to resolve it privately before going public

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Old October 15, 2003, 21:09   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Flubber
Chaunk from the cyco sent me this PM and indicated he is quitting their faction. It clarifies that their failure to complete tech deals was intentional . . . I have his permission to reproduce this here
Flubber et al

In this instance I think Chaunk was offside in giving the details as to why he resigned (given our analogous "defectors' information" rule) in that you obtained CyCon "inner working protocols" other than thru the game mechanics.

You'll find it ironic, I know, but I must rule that this information (as to why Chaunk left the CyCon) go no further than PEACE members.

I have also advised the CyCon of this ruling

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Old October 16, 2003, 10:02   #18
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I was looking at the rules for AC tournanment pbems to check about stockpile in the build queue after a mulitary unit.

When you replace a player and are used to a certain set of rules such as here, this is one of the rules you quite easily forget what applies in the game you're playing and nor do you necessarily check if the other players are abiding if you don't think you have to.

That's bye the bye.


There is a rule there, the gist of which is that if employ a tactic that will change the dip status towards vendetta you can't complete trade or tech in the same turn. Something like that.


To inhibit the legal (but unfriendly) steal of pre agreement ecs or tech , perhaps the rule should require the faction doing so to go to vendetta.

You know when the AI does something sneaky a screen advises 'this is a just cause for vendetta'. Then it is up to you to decide whether to do so or not.

In the scenario where a faction accept a pre agreement offer with the intention of not fulfilling their side of a deal or possible deal. then I am suggesting that they must declare vendetta.

It has of course downsides for the offended against faction, eg your troops may be in transit to somewhere beyond their territory and would have to return to your territory and vice versa; you lose commerce and are caught on the hop.

But there are downsides too for the 'offending' faction that in declaring vendetta they know the additional costs and loss of commerce. PACT AI's and PACT mates would be compelled to join the aggrieved side. Also having been the first to announce vendetta the faction's reputation would suffer somewhat.

So yes the action is legal but the consequences in game could be substantial
(especially in the mid and late game).

Just an idea (not fully examined) for much later discussion.
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Old October 16, 2003, 14:50   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Googlie


Flubber et al

In this instance I think Chaunk was offside in giving the details as to why he resigned (given our analogous "defectors' information" rule) in that you obtained CyCon "inner working protocols" other than thru the game mechanics.

You'll find it ironic, I know, but I must rule that this information (as to why Chaunk left the CyCon) go no further than PEACE members.

I have also advised the CyCon of this ruling

Googlie

Hmm -- a member of a faction told me something-- just like I tell stuff to other factions all the time and their ambassadors tell me stuff all the time-- For all I know, chaunk could be lying or part of some deeper cycon plot.
this could all be part of the roleplay-- I am half expecting Chaunk to be annointed as their new leader as the masses " overthrow" the leadership and a new more trustworthy cycon government is installed LOL.

However, I understand the reasoning for the rule and will abide by your ruling--
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Old October 16, 2003, 14:53   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hercules
But there are downsides too for the 'offending' faction that in declaring vendetta they know the additional costs and loss of commerce. PACT AI's and PACT mates would be compelled to join the aggrieved side. Also having been the first to announce vendetta the faction's reputation would suffer somewhat.
This is true. if an attack in a PBEM is made against a player pacted with others, the game's inbuilt AI automatically causes the other pactmates to declare vendetta against the attacker.

In many PBEM's the human controllers "kiss and make up", but there is the loss of comerce income, the instant relocation of units to home bases, etc etc to contend with (which could be embarrassing if a convoy were, say, in transit past one of those "other" pactmates en route for a full scale invasion, and suddenly got dumped back at the starting gate)

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Old October 16, 2003, 14:58   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Flubber
I am half expecting Chaunk to be annointed as their new leader as the masses " overthrow" the leadership and a new more trustworthy cycon government is installed
LOL, Flubber.

Can I pass that on to the 'Borgs?

(Actually, if the general thread weren't padlocked, it'd be worth a post there by you querying "So when can we expect Chaunk to emerge as Prime Function" or summat like that)

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Old October 16, 2003, 16:25   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Googlie


LOL, Flubber.

Can I pass that on to the 'Borgs?

(Actually, if the general thread weren't padlocked, it'd be worth a post there by you querying "So when can we expect Chaunk to emerge as Prime Function" or summat like that)

G.
Actually I am hoping to do a roleplay post ( very long and told in a pirate voice) where I go through everything including chaunk ( to the extent I can) My thoughts are I would post it here first ( since I have been shooting off my mouth on my own way too much) and might even send an advance copy to the cyborgs if my faction sees the content as not giving away too much-- Heck-- we could even decide to agree to post the cycon's rebuttal . I actually think they are in a stronger position saying that they can't explain than if they actually felt they HAD to explain-- I hope to have some fun with it.

But as i think about it, Chaunk is in no way a necessary part of the story so share with the cycon if you think it will amuse them.

Last edited by Flubber; October 16, 2003 at 16:36.
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Old October 19, 2003, 01:18   #23
H0bbes
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Well, see what I missed! I will try to check more regularly now!
My 2 cents worth is that while a horribly nasty, unethical & just plain naughty act, the Cycon double-cross was a perfectly legal act. As I play, a preaccepted tech swap is given in exchange for promise; and like all promises, such a promise may be broken. Of course such broken promises must be dealt with swiftly and with overwhelming force. Hang them from the yard-arm I say!!

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