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Old October 22, 2003, 12:46   #91
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Michael, Michael...

Do you not realize that you are talking to somebody who is certain that people are unaware that they are writing rent checks, apparently even while they are writing the check.

Debating Kid and Sava, and being Catholic, one must assume that you have a particular affinity for Saint Jude, the Patron Saint of Lost Causes.
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Old October 22, 2003, 12:49   #92
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Actually, I have an affinity for cats - it's like playing with my own virtual mousie - bap it around until I get bored, then walk off and stuff my face in a bowl of food, then spend the day sleeping with my belly in the sun.

Sounds good, doesn't it? I just realized our cats are the beneficiary of a welfare state.
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Old October 22, 2003, 13:28   #93
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Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


There's so many huge differences it's almost impossible to believe you're not trolling.

1) The "welfare state" will determine for you what it deems adequate care. If you're someplace like Norway, with a tiny population and a shitload of an easily extractible resource with huge global demand, that's one thing. In the rest of the world, it's another.

2) If you collect profit, rent or interest, (assuming these are in addition to regular earnings), you have considerable flexibility in how those are invested, and whether and how you adapt to changing economic conditions.

3) A welfare state has to have continuous revenue growth to increase standards of living over time. No welfare state has ever achieved this.

4) There is no evidence whatever that a planned economy is or will be responsive enough to create, let alone implement, emerging technologies in an efficient way.

5) The incentives are entirely different. I would have no incentive under a welfare state system to spend time since 1994 designing the software technologies I'm now completing. The first commercial installation of that system will come almost exactly a decade since the original design concept. With the welfare state, my rewards would be the same whether I put in the effort or not, and whether I succeeded marginally, spectacularly, or if I failed entirely. So why go the effort, when I could have spent more time playing at stuff that was more fun?
You missed my meaning. I meant what is different morally by cheating welfare and sitting on your ass collecting profit while others work for you?
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Old October 22, 2003, 13:30   #94
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Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
You have an ideological bug up your ass about owners/investors, but they are an essential part of production and all economic activity as well.
No they aren't. Labor organization is necessary. It is not necessary to have capitalists, or private ownership of capital.
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Old October 22, 2003, 13:43   #95
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Originally posted by Kidicious


No they aren't. Labor organization is necessary. It is not necessary to have capitalists, or private ownership of capital.

Its a shame, then, that labour can't organize itself isn't it
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Old October 22, 2003, 13:48   #96
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Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
And the faults of centrally planned systems are even more extensive. No system is perfect. Just less imperfect.
We are talking about exploitation. I propose a syatem which is not exploitive. You can argue that a certain centrally planned system is exploitive, but the purpose of a communist system is to correct the exploitive nature of capitalism. So don't avoid the argument.
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Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Just the design, the means of production, the organization of people, materials, products and money that efficiiently delivers the laborer's work product to the marketplace in a marketable form. Do you really want to buy a car by hiring each individual designer and laborer, then going out and finding them the necessary machine tools, and renting them the necessary shop space? Or maybe each one is expected to provide his own machine tools and work in his back yard? And do the laborers and parts and machine suppliers (or all laborers in your self-limited world view, since nothing else counts) want to wait until you get a complete product before they get paid? Ahhh, but comrade, great Stateski Carski pays them. And in five years, you vill get your Trabant.
How is buying stock in a company doing any of this? There are people who do all of this and they are compensated for doing so. You don't have to do any of it to collect profit, rent or interest. Hell, all you have to do is rent your house out, put money in the bank or buy stock in a company.
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So does organizing labor, capital, workspace, marketing, and procurement of source materials.
MtG, we are talking about an isolated deal between two agents. One has an advantage and the other is at a disadvantage. It's very simple.
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Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
It's fair because all participants have the opportunity to plan for changes in the labor markets, to anticipate them, and to decide how they want to deal with those changes.
Opportunity to plan isn't ****. You are still at a disadvantage. The other party also has tiime to plan and will always have more resources, connections etc. Chances are you will plan wrong and you will be in debt which will put you at a greater disadvantage.
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People don't have to accept deals. If someone offers to hire me for either my software development or energy consulting work, but they'll only pay me $15.00 an hour, I'll laugh in their face. 25 years ago, when I was a teenage scab construction laborer, I would have jumped at $15.00 an hour, even if you adjust back for inflation. The difference? I worked at changing my market value and bargaining power.

If people refuse to change their job market value and decide to remain unskilled, don't expect me to sympathize with them, any more than I'd sympathize with a business who claims to want an IT staff, or TIG welders, or high voltage journeyman electricians, but will only pay $10.00 an hour, and goes out of business rather than pay market costs for skilled labor.
People do have to accept the best deal available to them. Just because you accept the best deal doesn't make that deal fair. Take the system overall. It's unfair because the majority of deals (jobs) are unfair. Sure some smart individuals can become the exploiters instead of the exploited, but the system is still unfair.
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Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
It's only one example of a fairly common case. Labor shortages in skilled or specialty labor have created imbalances in the market in favor of those employees until the market adjusted - generally by more and more people pursuing the skills necessary to get those jobs. Obviously, the further down you are in the skills/value level you bring to the marketplace, the less likely that a shortage of labor is going to appear to benefit you, but the demand side of the labor market is a big part of why you train in some skills, and don't bother with others.
So ask yourself why there was the shortage in the first place. The only way an employee can get a break is when capitalism is functioning at its worse. Evenentually they don't really benefit because the system breaks down completely.
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Old October 22, 2003, 13:49   #97
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Andy-Man



Its a shame, then, that labour can't organize itself isn't it
Labor organization is work. It is performed by labor. Buying stock is not organizing labor.
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Old October 22, 2003, 13:51   #98
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious


Labor organization is work. It is performed by labor. Buying stock is not organizing labor.
I suppose it isn't work, but that guy had to get the money from somehwere.
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Old October 22, 2003, 13:53   #99
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According to Kid, that money was ill-gotten. He stole it, or he inherited it. He certainly couldn't have earned it.

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Old October 22, 2003, 13:54   #100
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Originally posted by JohnT
Michael, Michael...

Do you not realize that you are talking to somebody who is certain that people are unaware that they are writing rent checks, apparently even while they are writing the check.
I'm very aware that I'm paying rent. I've also realized how exploitive it is for a long time. And don't tell me to save my money either. Even if I could save the money for a down payment, I would be exploited until then, and afterwords I would be exploited by paying the interest on the home loan.
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Old October 22, 2003, 13:54   #101
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yeah, i know, that the problem with thr reds.

I mean, for them, the fact the guy had to do alot of hard thought process to decide which stocks would be wise investments, and even more, to stake his savings on them, means nothing to your average red.
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Old October 22, 2003, 13:55   #102
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Originally posted by The Andy-Man


I suppose it isn't work, but that guy had to get the money from somehwere.
It's dripping with blood.
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Old October 22, 2003, 13:59   #103
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And don't tell me to save my money either. Even if I could save the money for a down payment, I would be exploited until then, and afterwords I would be exploited by paying the interest on the home loan.


That's right then - give up. Do nothing. You're being exploited! It's all so unfair! If things were fair you would be able to go take that bloody wealth away from the fat, lazy, rich, criminal capitalist! Yeah!

You're incredible. Your ideology is constructed to justify your desire to take things from other people.

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Old October 22, 2003, 14:17   #104
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I'm very aware that I'm paying rent. I've also realized how exploitive it is for a long time. And don't tell me to save my money either. Even if I could save the money for a down payment, I would be exploited until then, and afterwords I would be exploited by paying the interest on the home loan.
Has anybody bothered to explain to you the time-value of money? I.e. if I'm going to loan your sorry ass $150,000 to buy a house and you want to take his own sweet time (like 20, 30 years) to pay me back, well I'm going to charge you extra for the time that my money is being spent on your house.

And Kid? Since time is the one resource we can never get back, you can be sure I'm going to charge you for the percentage of my life that is inconvenienced by not having my $150,000 at my disposal.

I mean, I'm sure you knows this. This can't be a completely original thought... why do you discount it so heavily? Do you consider my time and my money's time to be a limitless resource, to be disposed according to your needs?
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Old October 22, 2003, 14:30   #105
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious


You missed my meaning. I meant what is different morally by cheating welfare and sitting on your ass collecting profit while others work for you?
Assuming I can "sit on my ass and collect profit" (as opposed to "sitting on my ass and losing my ass") it doesn't matter whether I have others work for me or not.

I've seen plenty of screwoff employees who essentially milked their employer's bureaucracy, and figured every way they could to get out of doing any work, while their coworkers ended up picking up the slack.

I've also seen chickenshit managers in large companies, who were useless and non-productive, but they weren't "owners" and were just like junior officers in the corporate chain of command.

I've seen inept managers, who would have done everyone a favor if they had sat on their ass, but that's a different situation entirely.

In order to collect profit, you have to either (a) do something, (b) have done something in the past and are now getting deferred rewards, or (c) have invested something.

My not quite three year old son is an exception of sorts, because he hasn't really "done anything" to "earn" the percentage of my business I've given him, unless you count playing with trains and legos on the floor of my office. (that's his job ).

There are overpaid executives, (Lay and Fastow will be the first that pop to mind), and various sorts of unscupulous owners (and managers and employees), but it's immoral actions they've taken, not "sitting on their ass and collecting profit" that are the issue.

Perhaps you could describe for me a scenario in which someone manages to "sit on their ass and collect a profit" while other people work for them? I've known peope who've sat on their asses (or just had the reverse Midas touch) and lost their asses, but they didn't make a profit. I've known business owners who've put their life savings at risk and worked their asses off, putting in more hours than any of their employees, and made or not made "profits" depending on their overall business results, while the employees got paid regardless and got to go home at 5:30 every day with none of their savings at risk.

I've known investors who've made money and lost money, but they didn't directly have people working for them.

I have yet to encounter anyone who sat on their ass and made a profit while other people worked for them, who didn't also put a sizeable amount of capital or labor at risk.

So maybe you could describe a realistic scenario for me?
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Old October 22, 2003, 14:48   #106
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
Your ideology is constructed to justify your desire to take things from other people.

-Arrian
No. That would be your ideology.

edit: My justification is just better than yours.
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Old October 22, 2003, 14:49   #107
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious

We are talking about exploitation. I propose a syatem which is not exploitive. You can argue that a certain centrally planned system is exploitive, but the purpose of a communist system is to correct the exploitive nature of capitalism. So don't avoid the argument.
I'm not the one avoiding an argument - I've challenged you repeatedly to describe your "non exploitive" system, and all you do is talk about how capitalism is exploitive. Whatever the "purpose" of a communist system, in practice, it always comes down to a different set of privilege elites making decisions about the value of products, services and labor. At best, you just get a different set of pigs at the trough. Oink.

Quote:
How is buying stock in a company doing any of this? There are people who do all of this and they are compensated for doing so. You don't have to do any of it to collect profit, rent or interest. Hell, all you have to do is rent your house out, put money in the bank or buy stock in a company.
You are not guaranteed of making a profit at all. My parents have had rental properties, and when you consider the reasonable value of their time, the lost revenues between tenants, damages, maintenance, mortgage costs, etc., they have at best broken even, but gotten their mortgage payments paid down a bit - which would be meaningless if they didn't have the opportunity to sellout in an up market.

Same thing with stock - you have no guarantees.

Savings in the bank? You earn interest, but whether interest earnings after taxes keep pace with inflation is beyond your control.

Quote:
MtG, we are talking about an isolated deal between two agents. One has an advantage and the other is at a disadvantage. It's very simple.
No, reality is that you don't have an isolated deal. I don't have a designated employer, and there's no employer that's out there "ordered" to hire me. There's a pool of employers that can compete for my services, and a pool of people competing against me to provide those services. I can pick and choose, and so can everyone else. Now if the limits of your competence are dressing up as a cell phone and holding a sign, you have some problems, because there are a lot more people who can provide that unskilled, low value service, and relatively few people who want it.

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Opportunity to plan isn't ****. You are still at a disadvantage. The other party also has tiime to plan and will always have more resources, connections etc. Chances are you will plan wrong and you will be in debt which will put you at a greater disadvantage.
I started my working life with a backpack, a sleeping bag, about 30 bucks, a few days worth of food, and some clothes. Oh, and a bicycle, but no place to keep it, since I was living in the great outdoors when I left home. I didn't choose to stay there.

And again, you're engaging in the double fallacy of assuming that there are only two parties, and that the (one and only) employer will always gain in power. I should take you on a tour of Silicon Valley, and I could point out to you where a lot of now-dead companies you've probably never heard of used to be. Opportunity and results are dynamic for everyone, except those who don't plan for them.

Quote:
People do have to accept the best deal available to them. Just because you accept the best deal doesn't make that deal fair. Take the system overall. It's unfair because the majority of deals (jobs) are unfair. Sure some smart individuals can become the exploiters instead of the exploited, but the system is still unfair.
And the alternative is having the state assign you the job and determine both the wage and the price you will pay for the things you use? And that is fair how? The majority of jobs are not unfair. Some are, most are not.

Quote:
So ask yourself why there was the shortage in the first place. The only way an employee can get a break is when capitalism is functioning at its worse. Evenentually they don't really benefit because the system breaks down completely.
The reason that there's a shortage is that supply and demand are elastic, and technology, among other factors, creates new jobs and new business opportunities.
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Old October 22, 2003, 14:51   #108
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Originally posted by JohnT
Has anybody bothered to explain to you the time-value of money? I.e. if I'm going to loan your sorry ass $150,000 to buy a house and you want to take his own sweet time (like 20, 30 years) to pay me back, well I'm going to charge you extra for the time that my money is being spent on your house.

And Kid? Since time is the one resource we can never get back, you can be sure I'm going to charge you for the percentage of my life that is inconvenienced by not having my $150,000 at my disposal.

I mean, I'm sure you knows this. This can't be a completely original thought... why do you discount it so heavily? Do you consider my time and my money's time to be a limitless resource, to be disposed according to your needs?
Has anyone explained to you that if I already owned a house that I wouldn't have to rent from you, and you wouldn't be able to exploit me. I mean come on. Is that so hard to grasp?
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Old October 22, 2003, 15:00   #109
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Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Perhaps you could describe for me a scenario in which someone manages to "sit on their ass and collect a profit" while other people work for them? I've known peope who've sat on their asses (or just had the reverse Midas touch) and lost their asses, but they didn't make a profit. I've known business owners who've put their life savings at risk and worked their asses off, putting in more hours than any of their employees, and made or not made "profits" depending on their overall business results, while the employees got paid regardless and got to go home at 5:30 every day with none of their savings at risk.
I'm on the school Mac now, and I don't know how to cut and paste too well on it. Forgive me.

Let's take the case of the owner/manager. The owner doesn't have to manage his business. He can hire someone to do it. If he hires someone that will obviously cut into his profit. The owner/manager does work, but he only earns what he would have to pay another manager to do the work that he does. The rest of his profit comes from the exploitation of his employees. And the interest that he makes when he puts those profits into his bank account comes from the exploitation of some workers. If he buys real estate and rents it out, this can directly or indirectly come from the exploitation of workers.

Everything of value comes from human effort, not just by human ownership of things.
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Old October 22, 2003, 15:10   #110
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious


Has anyone explained to you that if I already owned a house that I wouldn't have to rent from you, and you wouldn't be able to exploit me. I mean come on. Is that so hard to grasp?
Good, you answered this one. Right now, we rent, and we're definitely exploiting the owner.

They wanted to sell this house, but the market was soft and there were no buyers. (rather nice corner lot, close to the ocean but not too close, close to the border but not too close, easy access to everything of use, large Roman villa style with lots of windows, marble and wood floors, stone, etc.) So they put it up for rent, and we saw the sign because it was only three houses away.

We negotiated the rent price down, and what we pay per month is a pittance compared to the value of the house, we can move at any time, we didn't have to tie up a down payment, or incur any form of long term debt, we don't have to concern ourselves with major maintenance, and because we haven't tied up any capital, we can either make a "take it or leave it" offer to buy this house, we can buy the empty lot across the street or the adjoining empty lots on the next block, or we can invest the money in unrelated things.

We have all the flexibility, and use of the house for a very low effective cost in relation to it's value. They own a bunch of dirt and rock and assembled building materials from which they derive a decent, but small in relation to total value, income, if and as long as we live in it.

"Exploitation," to the extent it exists, is partly a matter of perspective (which is why you commies have to work so hard convincing people they're exploited), partly a matter of market dynamics, and partly a matter of which alternative opportunities you choose. In this case, there is no doubt in my mind that renting is advantageous to us as the renters.

BTW, as far as "already owned a house" - what do you expect, that the state should pay the cost of building it, and then just give it to you? The time value of money, and the opportunity cost are there regardless.
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Old October 22, 2003, 15:19   #111
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I'm on the school Mac now...
Boy, that "free rider" problem is a *****, isn't it MtG?
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Old October 22, 2003, 15:22   #112
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Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
I'm not the one avoiding an argument - I've challenged you repeatedly to describe your "non exploitive" system, and all you do is talk about how capitalism is exploitive. Whatever the "purpose" of a communist system, in practice, it always comes down to a different set of privilege elites making decisions about the value of products, services and labor. At best, you just get a different set of pigs at the trough. Oink.
I'm not saying that a centrally planned system can't be exploitive. I'm just as much against one that is exploitvie as I'm against a capitalist system that is. Central planning has the potential to be less exploitive than capitalism. Capitalism has no such potential. It doesn't function well with out it's exploitative nature. Exploitation is fundamental to capitalism.
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Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
You are not guaranteed of making a profit at all. My parents have had rental properties, and when you consider the reasonable value of their time, the lost revenues between tenants, damages, maintenance, mortgage costs, etc., they have at best broken even, but gotten their mortgage payments paid down a bit - which would be meaningless if they didn't have the opportunity to sellout in an up market.

Same thing with stock - you have no guarantees.

Savings in the bank? You earn interest, but whether interest earnings after taxes keep pace with inflation is beyond your control.
The more capital you have to invest the better your chances are. If you are rich and lose all your money, you are just a dumb ass. If you are poor and lose money its because of your initial disadvantage.

Think of poker. If I'm playing with more money than you and we have equal ability. I will win 9 out of 10 times.
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No, reality is that you don't have an isolated deal. I don't have a designated employer, and there's no employer that's out there "ordered" to hire me. There's a pool of employers that can compete for my services, and a pool of people competing against me to provide those services. I can pick and choose, and so can everyone else. Now if the limits of your competence are dressing up as a cell phone and holding a sign, you have some problems, because there are a lot more people who can provide that unskilled, low value service, and relatively few people who want it.
You get to choose the best deal. Not choosing the best deal is no choice at all. That's not rational, and no one expects people to behave that way. Even if they did what would the point be. Considering options which rational people would not make does nothing for your argument.
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And the alternative is having the state assign you the job and determine both the wage and the price you will pay for the things you use? And that is fair how? The majority of jobs are not unfair. Some are, most are not.
Why wouldn't it be fair? As long as everyone did the same amount of work for the same pay.
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Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
The reason that there's a shortage is that supply and demand are elastic, and technology, among other factors, creates new jobs and new business opportunities.
No. The reason there was a shortage is because capitalism sucks. It could not allocate resources efficiently. We have been told since at least the early eighties that all of the jobs were going to be in computers. Did that matter? No. How was the system to train the correct number of people for that job? What if all of us would have been trained to do that job? Then there would be an over supply. The price mechanism works for ****, and therefore so does capitalism.
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Old October 22, 2003, 15:26   #113
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Originally posted by Kidicious


I'm on the school Mac now, and I don't know how to cut and paste too well on it. Forgive me.

Let's take the case of the owner/manager. The owner doesn't have to manage his business. He can hire someone to do it. If he hires someone that will obviously cut into his profit. The owner/manager does work, but he only earns what he would have to pay another manager to do the work that he does. The rest of his profit comes from the exploitation of his employees. And the interest that he makes when he puts those profits into his bank account comes from the exploitation of some workers. If he buys real estate and rents it out, this can directly or indirectly come from the exploitation of workers.

Everything of value comes from human effort, not just by human ownership of things.
You mean the human effort expended in acquiring the capital the owner invests and puts at risk in his business?
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Old October 22, 2003, 15:27   #114
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I'm on the school Mac now...
Boy, that "free rider" problem is a *****, isn't it MtG?
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Old October 22, 2003, 15:29   #115
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"Exploitation," to the extent it exists, is partly a matter of perspective (which is why you commies have to work so hard convincing people they're exploited), partly a matter of market dynamics, and partly a matter of which alternative opportunities you choose. In this case, there is no doubt in my mind that renting is advantageous to us as the renters.
Yes it is a matter of perspective. I can understand why you would want to rent. Now maybe you can understand why I have to rent. Because I have no means to own.
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BTW, as far as "already owned a house" - what do you expect, that the state should pay the cost of building it, and then just give it to you? The time value of money, and the opportunity cost are there regardless.
Capitalism organizes labor is such a manner that no house has been built for me. There is no surplus of housing available for those who can't afford it right now. That is a huge part of the exploitive nature of capitalism. Things are produced for the priviledged and not for the people who work at least as hard if not harder.
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Old October 22, 2003, 15:31   #116
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If you are rich and lose all your money, you are just a dumb ass. If you are poor and lose money its because of your initial disadvantage.
Take note - only the rich can be dumbasses. Poor people can only be disadvantaged.

By the way, Kid, I would qualify as a worker, not a capitalist. I'm an office worker who doesn't work as hard as I could/should. I could, with some motivation, improve my qualifications and get a higher-paying job, or even start my own business. Doing that, however, requires two things:

1) hard work
2) guts (to accept risk)

Given that my current job is decent, I work with good people, I'm paid fairly well, and I'm naturally pretty lazy, I'm sticking with what I've got. You will NOT, however, hear me *****ing about not being rich. If I truely wanted to be rich, I'd be willing to bust my ass to become so. I'm not, though, since there is more to life than money.

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Old October 22, 2003, 15:32   #117
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Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
You mean the human effort expended in acquiring the capital the owner invests and puts at risk in his business?
The effort has already been compensated for. You want compensation for the ownership of the capital which takes no effort.
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Old October 22, 2003, 15:33   #118
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I'm on the school Mac now...
Boy, that "free rider" problem is a *****, isn't it MtG?
It is for me. Not for you I guess.
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Old October 22, 2003, 15:34   #119
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Take note - only the rich can be dumbasses. Poor people can only be disadvantaged.

By the way, Kid, I would qualify as a worker, not a capitalist. I'm an office worker who doesn't work as hard as I could/should. I could, with some motivation, improve my qualifications and get a higher-paying job, or even start my own business. Doing that, however, requires two things:

1) hard work
2) guts (to accept risk)

Given that my current job is decent, I work with good people, I'm paid fairly well, and I'm naturally pretty lazy, I'm sticking with what I've got. You will NOT, however, hear me *****ing about not being rich. If I truely wanted to be rich, I'd be willing to bust my ass to become so. I'm not, though, since there is more to life than money.

-Arrian
I'm not *****ing about not being rich either. I just want to be treated equally.
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Old October 22, 2003, 15:39   #120
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No, you want to be given **** for free.

-Arrian
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