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Old August 23, 2000, 14:08   #1
RobRoy
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Barbarian Wrath - great with Kull's SoG
Barbarian Wrath appears to work great for Kull's Seeds of Greatness scenario! That's the second of his Ancient Empires series.

I changed both the 2D bit in the .scn file (one notch higher), and added one line in the Game.txt file (not sure if that was necessary). The results have been most satisfying!

This excellent scenario becomes extremely difficult, but not impossible, I think. Yes, you do see small pirate bands almost every other turn. And, yes, you do get rebel hordes 80-100 strong (I've only seen hordes composed of Bronze Inf I/Battering Rams, so far, but I'm just barely in the Bronze Age in my current game). But the rebel hordes seem to be somewhat more random. At times they seem to rest and let you deal with what they've already thrown at you. Between attrition, dispersal, and disappearances, you actually have a chance against the three-four units that reach your vulnerable cities each turn (usually just a few are directly in their path).

I can't remember a civ game that has been more challenging and more fun! Yet it flows along reasonably historical lines. Defensive play gets a whole new dimension, especially in those early phases of Kull's game where there are few good defensive units.

At one point, my mighty Hittite empire reached from the homeland, down to Syria (along surprisingly historical lines), and had several outlying cities in western Anatolia, Messepotamia, and the Levant). When the first rebel horde appeared, I was forced to write off many of the outlying cities. At one point the barbarians gave no rest and were dispersing units from three 80+ hordes near my capital, forcing me to abandon many of my heartland cities and head for the hills (literally). The Hittites looked more like a fledgling Aegean power by the time that round was spent.

You lose a fair number of cities on a regular basis. The trick is figuring out how recover from this realistic situation. Once a horde has spent itself, you frequently lose the race against the AI civs to re-establish yourself in your former dominions. I'd have thought the AI civs would be toast at this level, and indeed some of them do seem to struggle more. But others seem to do okay, perhaps because the hordes seem to focus on the human player, but also because that key Palace Guard unit seems to help keep the capitals alive.

It is galling as a player to see my neighbors occupy many of my former cities, while I'm still hugging the hills and coasts. But Kull couldn't have designed a more elegent way of reflecting the ebb and flow of ancient empires, particularly after major barbarian incursions.

If there was a flaw in SoG before, it was being excessively generous - having both goody huts and rewards for killing the barbarian town-defenders (Warrior unit). Once you play the game a few times, it becomes apparent that you can get far ahead of the AI quickly by exploiting these features.

Now, however, I find myself thinking differently in many ways. Should I abandon a city to increase its chance of survival? Granaries and City Walls take on new significance. Frequently, it makes more sense not to try to regain outlying cities (non-human cities can grow faster, few barbie cities produce offensive units, and democratic barbarians make good trading partners). Furthermore, since it's not the AI civs but the barbarians that are your primary adversary, I actually find myself thinking about sharing techs to help prop up some of the AI civs near my borders hoping they'll take some of the heat from the next barbie incursion.

For those interested in even more challenge, it's fairly easy to reverse the event files such that the AI empires receive the gold/settlers for destroying Warrior units, but the human player does not (give the most likely enemy refugee settlers when the human player kills Warrior units). Or one could just eliminate goody huts. But those options do more violence to the designer's intent than simply ratcheting up the barbarian level a notch. Plus, I really like playing with goody huts.

(Kull: do you have any thoughts on such monkeying with the event files?)

I've tried Barbarian Wrath as both the Hittites and the Minoans. It was more satisfying as the Hittites. The Minoans were plagued by Pirates, slowing them down considerably, and making trade miserably difficult, but I never saw the same level of rebel horde activity. I wonder if there is something in the barbarian algorithms that consider the location and accessibility of the human player's capital?

Sorry this is so long-winded. But players looking for a real challenge have got to try Barbarian Wrath in a scenario like this - one that was designed with active barbarians in mind.

Plus, barbarians as democrats! That works wonderfully. Thanks Kull and Allard! That should become the standard for all future scenarios, as far as I'm concerned. Bribery is still available, but only against competing AI empires.
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Old August 23, 2000, 14:44   #2
St Leo
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Are Barbarians still dirt cheap if they are in a Republic without a capital? Actually, the CityEd will allow Barb Republics with Capitals so expensive bribing can also be an option.

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Old August 23, 2000, 16:13   #3
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Leo: Kull, in a stroke of pure evil genius, used democracy to make barbarians unbribable. AAAAAAHH!

Kull: In the game I'm playing, the standard barbarians become the Sea Peoples, meaning that every few turns you get a few next-to-impossible-to-defeat units appearing somewhere. Is this supposed to happen? (boy, do I wish I could bribe them)

I'm the Minoans, and I've got Crete, the Aegean, Thrace, Northern and Western Anatolia, North Africa, and a tiny bit of the Levant (not to mention two little cities somewhere around Armenia)
 
Old August 24, 2000, 16:08   #4
Jim Winchell
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Could you post or email me the modified file(s) for those of us who do not know what a 2D bit is or how to edit it?
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Old August 24, 2000, 19:05   #5
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RobRoy: Wow...you've whetted my interest in playing my own scenario! (Not an easy thing to do, as any designer can attest!) The type of experience you describe, an empire pummelled by an overwhelming onslaught from the barbarians is EXACTLY what occurred in that era. It's exceedingly difficult to recreate with events, and it appears you've hit upon something VERY COOL. Thanks!

Re "monkeying with the Event files": Anything that makes the game more interesting to the individual user is fine by me. Personally I love "enslaving" my neighbors, and it would REALLY make expansion harder if you lost all those freebie settlers.

By the way, if you send me the modified "Wrath" .scn file, I'll see about posting it up on the Ancient Empires web site for anyone else who might be interested.

Squid: The Sea Peoples really made life miserable for the Ancients (as any EotBA player can testify!), particularly those who lived on the coast. One of the prices you pay for those lovely seaside vistas. But as was true in history, they will cease bothering you soon enough.
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Old August 24, 2000, 23:39   #6
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Anyone interested in downloading the new uber-SoG, click the Barbarian Wrath Variant link and check it out for yourself.

It's a 13KB zip file and contains only the modified scenario file and a short readme.

If you'd like to get the entire scenario, the Ancient Empires link will take you to the download page.

[This message has been edited by Kull (edited August 24, 2000).]
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Old August 25, 2000, 10:47   #7
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St Leo: Palaces would make the cities unbribable and make nearby units expensive, but not invulnerable to bribery, especially if you also give the barbs some money each turn. Certainly an option, if that's what you're after. The one problem is that the original city owner gets a free palace if he retakes the city, unless that is also fixable via hex-editing. I'd think it'd be easier to just use democracy; and, personally, the more I play it, the more unbribable barbs seems "right" to me.

Jim: Kull beat me to it, and already posted the modified .scn file. Guess you don't need to modify the GAME.TXT file, after all. I tested it and the modified scenario works fine by itself - got a mid-sized horde (71, I think) on turn 15. FYI, 2D refers to the hex offset position that controls barbarian activity in the saved game files. Allard and others have done extensive research on hex-editing the saved game files (.sav) and the game.txt file. Just download one of the hex editors the thread participants recommend, if you want to do it yourself. I think I used Hexwizard; Andrew Livings provides the link in the hex-editing threat - sorry I can't recall the URL.

Kull: Thanks for the kind words.

A couple of observations for those interested in pursuing this variant:

- Make sure you've checked "Fast piece slide" and "No pause after enemy moves" in your game options or the game will drag like a monster WWII scenario (not that there's anything wrong with those).

- Your capital, with city walls and the Palace Guard is pretty secure against the regular hordes (at least the early ones I've encountered). The Sea People pirates can do some damage but are usually insufficient in number to take your capital.

- It's the far-flung empire that is really at risk. A common strategy - fast growth via lots of settlers and aggressive goody hut exploration - will probably be less successful now than a slower approach, focusing on defensible terrain, placing cities close enough to share mobile strike forces, and building city walls. Kull gives some Hill Rivers sites - use them, or maybe even mountains, to build frontier cities to shield your lower lying heartland.

- Ishtar Gate (Great Wall) is the critical wonder. After you get it, you can watch the huge hordes bounce off even moderately defended cities. It gives both city walls and a bonus against barbarians, I believe. They'll still be a major nuisance, and discourage you from getting over-extended, but they won't be a threat to half your empire anymore. For a purer barbarian experience, you might want to resist building this wonder.

Kull, Ishtar Gate is so strong, you might want to consider removing it if you keep this as an official variant - should keep things more interesting, longer. Rather than mucking around with new rule or event files, you can keep an elegent single-file solution by placing it in Central Asia. If we can ignore the now-inappropriate name, this would also help those size 1-2 barbie cities avoid extinction. The city walls will also make it less trivial to retake the barbie cities that are defended with just one unit (Sea People cities might actually be a challenge). If you want barbie cities to actually thrive under barbie control, you could consider giving them the Pyramids, too, but that might be more problematic.

Please, remember, as Kull said, this hasn't been extensively play-tested, particularly beyond the games' early phases. Not sure if later tech advances will make the barbies easier or tougher to handle. At one tech slot, I believe, pirates (first Swordsmen, then Sea Peoples...) are supposed to stop coming - Mobile Warfare, maybe? Check William Keenan's Barbarian Paper.

The Barbarian Paper might give insights regarding which scenarios can also use this variant. Kull obviously designed the 3500 scenario, especially, with barbarians in mind and was very careful about the unit slots and roles. I tried this on a couple of other scenarios, with less success - generally because inappropriate units were occupying certain unit slots.
[This message has been edited by RobRoy (edited August 25, 2000).]
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Old August 25, 2000, 11:06   #8
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I would very much like hear of other experiences playing this variant to one of the greatest scenario ever created.
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Old August 25, 2000, 13:13   #9
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This scenario is great with Barbarian Wrath.. I've played it with the Hittites as well and the entire sceen is filled with barbarians.. Some are easy picking but researching for new techs is crazy with them... This is extremely fun to play.... Now a question about Barbarian wrath... I know it can be done for scenarios and saved games but is could it be done for new games... MPG games will have a totally different meaning with Barbarian wrath... The hex values on CIv2.exe are different for editing than a game?? Thanks all

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Old August 25, 2000, 13:16   #10
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Kull, I seem to have a problem with getting the normal version. The link doesn't seem to wrk for me. I was wondering whether you could send me a copy via email. My profile one works. Thanx in advance. I look forward to playing this excellent scenario.
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Old August 25, 2000, 16:18   #11
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Hmmm. The Web Site is EXTREMELY non-responsive today. I hit refresh about 10 times and finally forced my way in. To spare you the pain, here's the links to the four SoG files:

1) Game Files (560KB)

2) Sound File #1 (900KB)

3) Sound File #2 (1MB)

4) Sound File #3 (530KB)

RobRoy: I was playing the Wrath Variant last night, and it definitely changes your playing style! Giving Ishtar Gate to the Barbarians is a good idea. I'll have to see about hex-editing it into place (This is where a Wonders Screen in Gothmog's superb new "City Editor" would be a godsend!)

In SoG, Armored Horses = Mobile Warfare (so the pirates will be there for a while yet)

CivFan: I am not aware of any method for making Barbarian Wrath "selectable" at the start of a game. I suppose you could begin a multiplayer game and then run it through the hex editor after turn #1. Just surviving after that would be a real challenge!

My Game: I chose the Assyrians, figuring they'd be completely surrounded by Barbarians, and so far that's been true. You absolutely MUST develop a cohesive network of cities rather than a huge sprawling empire or you'll be chopped to bits. Frontier cities must be placed on defensible terrain, because walls alone won't be enough.

So far there have been two waves of Barbs, the first occurring after about 15 turns or so and then a second (double) wave about as many turns later. If you can survive the first, quickly build new cities and have defenders ready for that second wave - more like a tsunami - or you'll be crushed! One trick is to rush-build lots of Skirmishers and turn them into veterans by attacking the Battering Rams. Veteran Skirmishers will be able to take out Bronze Infantry, and you'll need that capability. Use Skirmishers and then Horsemen for hut-hunting. The goody huts should produce a few Chariots and Swordsmen, and when that happens rush them home! Don't underestimate Ladder Towers - they're stronger than their attack values would suggest.

The best strategy seems to be the one the Ancients used. Hole up inside a strong city and attack the enemy when they reach the gates. Your units regain strength faster that way, too. Don't build roads too far out beyond the frontier - more than one square beyond a frontier city and the Barbs will use them to swarm your defenders before they can recuperate. So far it's been a real challenge, but definitely not impossible.

Scenario Building Tip: Based on the experiences of RobRoy and myself, it appears that Barbarian Wrath may create these huge swarms in a PREDICTABLE manner. Every 15 turns or thereabouts. I haven't looked into this closely, but if true, it offers some neat possibilities. Rather than use Events to Create Units (very space intensive), generate Messages to coincide with each onslaught. That would really improve the atmosphere, plus it makes new types of scenarios possible. A new "Mongols" in which the Barbarians play the part of Ghengis Khan and Company. A "Fall of the Roman Empire" scenario in which the Techs could be used to change the look of the Barbarians. Start with Goths, move to Vandals, finish with Huns. Even a "Conquest of the Plains Tribes" in which the Sioux and others try to fend off the (Barbarian) US Army. Some interesting possibilities, all in all.
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Old August 25, 2000, 17:29   #12
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Hmm.. the link appears to be dead... but fortunately I found the scenario at St. Leo's site. So far, this is one of the best scenarios I've played. Great job Kull.
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Old August 26, 2000, 02:27   #13
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The new, improved "Barbarian Wrath" variant is up on the web site. At RobRoy's suggestion, Ishtar Gate (Great Wall) is now Barbarian owned. Hehehe.

Download it HERE
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Old August 29, 2000, 08:26   #14
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I played two games as the Egyptians. Both games had huge hoards appearing on a regular basis just east of the Suez canal (the Sinai?), completely blocking me from making contact with other tribes until late in the game. Research was incredibly slow without being able to trade with other civs. In both games the Persians, Minoans, and Greeks did very well expansion wise, although the Persians were difinitely the dominant AI power, crowding out the Babylonians and Hittites. I was finally able to counter the barbarian threat with a line of ladder towers, swordmen, and horsemen that slowly pushed back the hoard. A few key cities in this area and that stopped appearing. I tried a game as the Babylonians and was almost wiped out after ten turns.
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Old August 30, 2000, 17:53   #15
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Kull: I had some time to play again, using the latest version on your site. I noticed, however, that the barbs were no longer democracies, and were eminently bribe-able. Took me awhile to be in a position to generate a decent cash flow, but thereafter the red hordes simply represented mercenary troops that hadn't yet been hired. I thought the democratic barbies worked great! Was this intentional? If not, you may want to double check to see if any other unintended anomalies have entered the scenario (version control issue?)

Jim: One thing I've noticed is that the hordes seem to prefer uninhabited areas closest to your capital. But your capital is your best defended city (veteran, fortified Palace Guard). With a few skirmishers inside to pick off the battering rams, it can usually survive. So, I've been trying to make my capital a border of my empires rather than the center (a bit ahistorical, I know), so it can take the brunt of the hordes, especially if I don't have any good defensive points (hill rivers or better, IMHO). So for Egypt, if they're popping up in Sinai, I'd expand west and south, and forget about the Levant for awhile. I've decided that it still makes sense to aggressively pursue goody huts, though, precisely because the tech game is harder now. The luck factor is bigger, but I've usually been able to stay ahead of the AI civs via goody hut techs. I write off any free cities I get, though unless they're behind defensive points; commit zero resources to defending it, and hope I'll be able to generate a useful settler before its conquered, reconquer it later, or use it as a trading partner.
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Old August 30, 2000, 21:16   #16
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Hmm, I am simply not seeing enough Barbs. In my initial playthrough using the pre-Ishtar gate I didn't see any uprising and my current game has only had a couple 2-4 unit pirate groups. I also tried using a modified game.txt to start a normal Barbarian Wrath game and I didn't see any hordes either. I am using Fantastic Worlds (didn't bother installing CiC).

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Old August 30, 2000, 23:48   #17
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Rob Roy: I don't know WHAT was going on!

I used several editors while working on the "Wrath" scenario file, and one of them apparently reset the Barbarian Government AND the City styles. Weird. Anyway, the file on the Web Site has been fixed and Barbarian Democracy is back in vogue! (The corrected version is dated 8/30/00 @ 9:41PM. If anyone is playing with a different version, please replace it)

St.Leo: Sometimes the hordes don't kick in right away...I've gone as many as 40 turns before the first one appeared. As for Barbarian Wrath, the Game.txt does NOT control barbarian levels. You have to hex edit a .scn file to activate it.
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Old August 31, 2000, 09:10   #18
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Thanks Kull.

St. Leo, don't know what to tell you. I'm using MGE, but that shouldn't matter, since I thought Kull made it in FW.

I have noticed a lot of variability, and sometimes a lot of time between hordes, as Kull suggests. But the pirates should be coming fairly fast and furious after about turn 15. I haven't rigorously tracked it, but I think I get them at least every 4 turns, and it feels much more frequent than that. Pirates don't seem to have the same tendency to appear near the human player as the hordes do, however, so you'd need to cheat-check all over the map. The first pirate groupings (usually swordsmen) are small, though, in my experience.

If you're playing the Minoans, you might want to reconsider. I've noticed a tendency for the hordes to be fewer, maybe even non-existent, as Crete. As the Hittites, I switched my capital to Crete and also seemed to get fewer hordes. I'm becoming pretty confident that the player's capital location somehow enters the horde appearance algorithm, but I don't have many data points.

But if you're not even getting frequent pirates, at least, after turn 15ish, sounds like something else is wrong. I suppose there is a possibility that during your editing some of the files might've gotten corrupted. Maybe try to download the original SoG files, again, and then the latest variant file to be sure you're using all the correct files and haven't inherited any anomalies?
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Old August 31, 2000, 23:41   #19
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the Game.txt does NOT control barbarian levels.

Really? Playing with 1 Civilization worked.

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