Should Universities Have Required Courses? - Page 4

Az · October 22, 2003, 15:58

When he said "School" he meant "College" or "Uni", pekka.

Pekka · October 22, 2003, 16:00

Azazel, it's about 10 semesters here for MD (two semesters in one year). That's minimum in my area, some are shorter, but it's pretty much how fast you advance, VERY often people get their degrees after 6+ years. Also for example my actual studies are closer to 5 years but there is a thesis I need to do.. and that takes a bit more time.

Pekka · October 22, 2003, 16:02

Az, I realized that. And I pointed out, that our 'school' is longer, the school before college/Uni. So it's quite understandable why we have shorter Uni, no? And it's the same credits we have to get there too, it's just some people who manage to do it in time. I guess if I wanted, I could do this whole thing in one year, but I can't.

HershOstropoler · October 22, 2003, 16:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Azazel
10-15 simesters?!!!!!!!!!!!!!! People get Ph.Ds over here for such a period of time.

Yeah it's a bit odd. But there are several factors, eg unis are not school-like - students have to organise themselves. And many students have jobs besides studying. And some studies are hopelessly overcrowded.

DanS · October 22, 2003, 16:17

Quote:

DanS, and how did you come to this conclusion? I'd like to point out, that in many countries we go to school longer before college. For example here it is 12 years. And THEN it's college. The level is naturally about the same, so it's not like we need to learn how to read for 12 years.

Same here, except we have kindergarten in addition for 4/5 year olds. A bachelor's degree is 8 semesters, which is referred to as an undergraduate degree. There are some few programs where you can get a bachelors + masters in 10 semesters, but normally it's at least 12.

In comparison to Roland's 10 semesters for a masters law degree, an American attorney for his bachelors law degree (LL.B) will have 8 semesters for his undergraduate degree plus 6 semesters for law school, or 14 semesters total.

Don't get me started on how much schooling American medical doctors have to take...

Add to all of this is the fact that a much higher percentage of Americans go to college/university than in most other countries.

Pekka · October 22, 2003, 16:20

DanS, We don't actually count kindergarten

. You don't do 12 years starting from the age of 7. Your high school ends a year before that. That means you'll be 19 when you finish this period.

DanS · October 22, 2003, 16:23

I'm confused. We have 12 years before college as well (not including kindergarten). How is yours different then?

Pekka · October 22, 2003, 16:24

And here it has very little to do even with semesters or years, it's how fast you advance. Minimum is usually 4 to 5 years, normal graduation time is after 6 years. To Bachelors degree you'll be going for about.. 120 credits, equaling about 3+ years. So that would be even more than in there. These are not equivalent, the semesters or the credit system like I said. The actual degrees however are pretty much the same. And the time you complete them, you have spent about the same time. Here the average grad with MD is about 26, and in some areas it's 27, and if you are med student, it's more.

Pekka · October 22, 2003, 16:25

DanS, and your school starts at the age of 7? It's not he same anyway. We go further in the 'high school' level.

HershOstropoler · October 22, 2003, 16:26

Quote:

Originally posted by DanS

In comparison to Roland's 10 semesters for a masters law degree, an American attorney for his bachelors law degree (LL.B) will have 8 semesters for his undergraduate degree plus 6 semesters for law school, or 14 semesters total.

Don't get me started on how much schooling American medical doctors have to take...

Well I don't know about med, but you'll have to compare the entire system. In most (or all?) US states you can do the bar exam shortly after law school. In Austria, it requires 5 years of legal practice in addition to your master's degree, and the bar exam, until you can get your full bar registration.

DanS · October 22, 2003, 16:28

Our school starts at age 4 or 5 with kindergarten. First grade is age 5 or 6. 12th grade is age 17 or 18.

Jon Miller · October 22, 2003, 16:29

to do a physics PHD, you are going to do on average 20 semesters of work (8 for a bachelors, and ~11 for a PHD)

at some schools Bachelors are 10, and some PHDs are over 12

a long time, I should only have ~8 left

Jon Miller

HershOstropoler · October 22, 2003, 16:29

I think the only difference is that we don't count kindergarten as "school".

Pekka · October 22, 2003, 16:30

DanS, Oh so yes but you count it like that.. We start counting from the age of 7. Before that we have 'pre-school' don't know the proper term, but this is what you are most likely doing also. We just start counting school from the age of 7, but we go to the 'pre-school' before that (ages 5, 6)..

Jon Miller · October 22, 2003, 16:30

DanS

it is true that a Euro Highschool student is better prepared than an American one, on average

Jon Miller

DanS · October 22, 2003, 16:31

Quote:

Well I don't know about med, but you'll have to compare the entire system. In most (or all?) US states you can do the bar exam shortly after law school. In Austria, it requires 5 years of legal practice in addition to your master's degree, and the bar exam, until you can get your full bar registration.

Ah, OK. I did not know that. But I wonder what difference it makes in actual fact. Whether or not you get your bar registration, you still have your degree and are still practicing law.

Pekka · October 22, 2003, 16:34

Jon Miller, naturally, because we go there longer. So, in order for you to have the same level, you should do 13 years then if you count it like that. But it's useless to talk about levels, since it's just a matter of some of us going longer, while you start colleges/Unis.. we start them later, and the Bc takes about that 4 years on average, but MD comes a bit faster, totalling about the same amount of time spent in school

. And they officially are comparable, so that must be right then. So it's about the same after you graduate eventually. Difference is with the high schools and stuff.

DanS · October 22, 2003, 16:34

Quote:

it is true that a Euro Highschool student is better prepared than an American one, on average

I don't know that to be the case. Most Euros just specialize a lot earlier than Americans.

HershOstropoler · October 22, 2003, 16:35

Quote:

Originally posted by DanS

Ah, OK. I did not know that. But I wonder what difference it makes in actual fact. Whether or not you get your bar registration, you still have your degree and are still practicing law.

The difference is that you work about 2 years as an "apprentice" for a salary that makes every paralegal laugh.

Then you get a sort of minor registration, which still does not entitle you to practice in your own name, although you're paid much better.

Pekka · October 22, 2003, 16:35

DanS, Well I don't mean to be bragging or bashing anyone, but we do go further in most subjects, like mathematics etc than in US high schools. BUT then again we have more time. So it's not comparable at this stage. Only after college/Uni .. then it's comparable.

DanS · October 22, 2003, 16:37

Quote:

We just start counting school from the age of 7, but we go to the 'pre-school' before that (ages 5, 6)..

OK, I think we've got it figured out. Pre-school for us is age 3 or 4. Kindergarten 4 or 5. Then we start counting from age 5 or 6.

HershOstropoler · October 22, 2003, 16:37

Quote:

Originally posted by DanS

I don't know that to be the case. Most Euros just specialize a lot earlier than Americans.

That's not true for the main branch of high school which is the general education one. At age 18, I did not have anything remotely resembling a specialization in anything.

Pekka · October 22, 2003, 16:39

Also I'd like to point out, that inside Europe we have different systems. They are more same though than when comparing the system in the US, but there are lots of differencies, depending what country it is. You don't get that 12 year thing I'm talking about in every country. There are official rules about the degrees we get out and they are different from each other. For example what we have here is equivalent with one year college/Uni. I think it's the same with the Germans. But not with all European countries, we have different systems. So there is no 'European school system'.

SpencerH · October 22, 2003, 18:17

The English and the Swedes specialize more than north-americans while in highschool.

cinch · October 22, 2003, 18:27

Quote:

Originally posted by SpencerH
Most artsy-types took psychology as their 'science' requirement (yeah right psychology=science) while the science-types took the same course as one of their arts requirements.

Hey, I'm an artsy-type, and that's exactly what I'm doing!

Although, PSYCO 104 will only complete half of my science credit requirements... I'm still figuring out what I'll take next year for that... Maybe Calculus. Something without labs, anyway.

Let's hear it for the artsy types!

cinch · October 22, 2003, 18:34

(Moved Other Stuff To Proper Thread)

*************

In my school (the University of Alberta), each and every student must take either English 100 or 101. Other than that, different faculties have different requirements. For Arts, and also Sciences, they give you loose lists, a sort of "you need 6 credits of this, 6 of that" type of checklist thing. Once you fulfill those (which can be done in about 2 years, and is very loose in and of itself), you can continue on to study whatever you want. You simply accumulate enough credits in a course, and the right marks, to make it your major.

It takes 4 years (8 semesters) to get a Bachelor's Degree here. Then about 2 more years for a Master's, but it varies. Essentially, you'll need to do about 10 years, at least to get a Ph.D., and you'll definitely need to teach for a while (at least in Arts).

Also, after your first year or two of undergraduate studies, you can branch off into specialties such as Education and Business.

Seems about right.

Jon Miller · October 22, 2003, 18:41

the canadian system is very similiar to the us one

JMon Miller

Az · October 22, 2003, 18:42

Quote:

Yeah it's a bit odd. But there are several factors, eg unis are not school-like - students have to organise themselves. And many students have jobs besides studying. And some studies are hopelessly overcrowded.

I guess I really like our system, then.

Of course, students have to organize themselves, but I don't know how it is in Europe, but in Israel, you cannot enroll, if you won't be able to study properly ( class rooms, etc.)
I don't know why, but it seems that your systems drag you on through university for eternity.

Dr Strangelove · October 22, 2003, 18:56

Quote:

Originally posted by GePap
Law school is a form of trade school, and so is medical school. That these sort of instutitions want to avoid taking in students without BA's, well, their choice, but you really do NOT need a BA in anything to then go straight into Law school or even Medical school, as far as what you will be studying. The one things going to a 4 year college beforehand gives you is more experience in handling the workload and hopefully better writing skills and better math (but this depends on what high school you went to.

I call them trade schools cause the only thing you learn in Law school is how to be a lawyer, and in Med school, how to be a doctor of some sort..that is waht trade schools are, fully focused on getting you the skills needed in one particular field.

In many countries, perhaps even most countries, a college degree is not required prior to entering medical school. Students can matriculate right out of high school.

Dr Strangelove · October 22, 2003, 19:12

Quote:

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
I assume some liberal arts bachelor, but isn't that college rather than uni? Always found that US system confusing.

In the US the differnece between a college and a university is the dgree of diversifiacation. A college generally has but one main school, while a university has several. A small college for instance might have just a School of Arts and Sciences offering B.S. and B.A. degrees in a variety of subjects such as math, physics, chemistry, history, and etc. A university is expected to offer a much wider variety of subjects. A typical university might for instance have Arts & Sciences, Engineering, Business, Agriculture, and even Law and Medicine.

To complicate matters sometime colleges branch out and develop one or more additional schools. As an example, Lynchburg College has a School of Nursing and a Business School in addition to its Arts & Scinces. Such colleges may elect to retain the title of college, especially if it's an old school whose name carries a lot of nostalgia for the people who truly matter......the alumni.