October 22, 2003, 22:59
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#1
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Deity
Local Time: 07:06
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Here's where your $30 billion in tax dollars went...
To a space station that is not yet fully built and already has so many malfunctioning yet unfixed parts that the doctors recommend against occupying it.
I want my money back!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Oct22.html
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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October 22, 2003, 23:16
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#2
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Deity
Local Time: 04:06
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Join Date: Sep 2001
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Posts: 17,436
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This is just par for the course on government work.
__________________
Christianity is the belief in a cosmic Jewish zombie who can give us eternal life if we symbolically eat his flesh and blood and telepathically tell him that we accept him as our lord and master so he can remove an evil force present in all humanity because a woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from an apple tree.
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October 22, 2003, 23:27
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#3
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Local Time: 07:06
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Location: In search of pants
Posts: 5,085
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/me supports the space station
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October 22, 2003, 23:39
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#4
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Deity
Local Time: 07:06
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Posts: 21,822
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/me agrees with Oerdin
/me actually thinks that, for government work, it is going quite well
__________________
[Obama] is either a troll or has no ****ing clue how government works - GePap
Later amendments to the Constitution don't supersede earlier amendments - GePap
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October 22, 2003, 23:51
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#5
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King
Local Time: 03:06
Local Date: November 2, 2010
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Location: Southern California
Posts: 2,407
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Oerdin
This is just par for the course on government work.
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You also have to remember that the Russians are involved in building the space station too. I would not trust the Russian stuff all that much. It is mainly because of them the space station is not yet finished.
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October 22, 2003, 23:55
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#6
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Emperor
Local Time: 06:06
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 3,046
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I support the space station in general, but NASA sending people up despite warnings of safety problems even AFTER what happened earlier this year makes me think something is seriously wrong with them.
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"Although I may disagree with what you say, I will defend to the death your right to hear me tell you how wrong you are."
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October 22, 2003, 23:56
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#7
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
Local Time: 03:06
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It's also because we wouldn't commit the resources, and now things are halfassed and bandaided along since we no longer have any delivery capability to get up there.
Getting something that big and getting it up into orbit and running it as much as it has ain't cheap, and it's a major technological milestone for future exploration.
There's really two choices, because no private venture will ever put up that kind of money - belly up to the bar and commit to it fully, or give up.
Considering we're pissing away far more than that in Iraq for mixed results and muddled reasons, I don't thing 30 billion over several years on the ISS is that out of line.
__________________
Bush-Cheney 2008. What's another amendment between friends?
*******
When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all.
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October 23, 2003, 00:02
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#8
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Deity
Local Time: 07:06
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Join Date: Dec 1969
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You guys are way too charitable. The space station is a fiscal black hole that has reduced NASA's flexibility to do other cool stuff.
A new space shuttle design and fleet would have cost half as much, for instance. But if we were to want to do that now, we would have to fully maintain two reusable launch vehicle programs for a couple of years because we couldn't have any time gap between the two.
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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October 23, 2003, 00:05
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#9
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
Local Time: 03:06
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A lot of money has already been pissed away on space planes and next generation shuttles, with no workable design emerging. So why would scrapping the ISS have resulted in a workable design?
Besides, there's a half trillion deficit already, why can't we throw a little more pork in NASA, and Lockheed Martin's direction?
__________________
Bush-Cheney 2008. What's another amendment between friends?
*******
When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all.
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October 23, 2003, 00:07
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#10
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Deity
Local Time: 07:06
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Quote:
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A lot of money has already been pissed away on space planes and next generation shuttles, with no workable design emerging.
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While a lot of money, you're talking a couple of billion dollars of waste rather than $30 billion of waste.
Quote:
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Besides, there's a half trillion deficit already, why can't we throw a little more pork in NASA, and Lockheed Martin's direction?
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Both NASA and LM need fed, but I would rather have them doing more worthwhile work while being fed.
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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October 23, 2003, 00:25
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#11
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Deity
Local Time: 12:06
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Join Date: Dec 1969
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Posts: 12,426
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I get the impression that NASA should be run on a more cost benefit basis. Choose projects, sub-projects or even the very basic things like equipment that will use the money most efficiently. They appear to worry about budgets (i.e not overspending) rather than about bang for bucks. Stitch in time, and all that.
__________________
"Everybody knows you never go full retard. You went full retard man. Never go full retard"
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October 23, 2003, 00:28
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#12
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Warlord
Local Time: 11:06
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 155
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Quote:
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Originally posted by DanS
You guys are way too charitable. The space station is a fiscal black hole that has reduced NASA's flexibility to do other cool stuff.
A new space shuttle design and fleet would have cost half as much, for instance. But if we were to want to do that now, we would have to fully maintain two reusable launch vehicle programs for a couple of years because we couldn't have any time gap between the two.
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NASA couldn't convert 1:1 funding from space station into other programs. the space station infact is probably still a good money getter for them.
tho scrapping the shuttle is long overdue.
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October 23, 2003, 00:57
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#13
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Emperor
Local Time: 06:06
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: topeka, kansas,USA
Posts: 8,164
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Quote:
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There's really two choices, because no private venture will ever put up that kind of money
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Umm...that's the point
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October 23, 2003, 01:01
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#14
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King
Local Time: 06:06
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Wichita
Posts: 1,352
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You know where our tax dollars are really going? That damn new $20 dollar bill commercial.
It's time we put the capitalist's heads on pikes.
__________________
http://monkspider.blogspot.com/
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October 23, 2003, 01:18
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#15
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Emperor
Local Time: 06:06
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Hmm...that would be the government advertising the new $20 bill...
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October 23, 2003, 01:19
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#16
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PolyCast Thread Necromancer
Local Time: 11:06
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Posts: 1,437
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Quote:
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Originally posted by monkspider
You know where our tax dollars are really going? That damn new $20 dollar bill commercial.
It's time we put the capitalist's heads on pikes.
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And its not even a very good commercial. Too vulgar. Too American.
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October 23, 2003, 01:44
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#17
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Deity
Local Time: 06:06
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Underwater no one can hear sharks scream
Posts: 11,096
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Too American.
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Heaven forbid.
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October 23, 2003, 01:58
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#18
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
Local Time: 03:06
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Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Fenway Pahk
Posts: 1,755
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Berzerker
Umm...that's the point
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To you.
__________________
Bush-Cheney 2008. What's another amendment between friends?
*******
When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all.
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October 23, 2003, 02:06
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#19
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PolyCast Thread Necromancer
Local Time: 11:06
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Location: We are all Asher now.
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Quote:
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Originally posted by DinoDoc
Heaven forbid.
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Ha! Most (intelligent) Americans admit that American propaganda is sub-par.
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October 23, 2003, 02:57
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#20
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Deity
Local Time: 04:06
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 17,354
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space sux!
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Focus, discipline
Barack Obama- the antichrist
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October 23, 2003, 10:40
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#21
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Deity
Local Time: 07:06
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
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Quote:
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NASA couldn't convert 1:1 funding from space station into other programs. the space station infact is probably still a good money getter for them.
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That would be a very good point, if true. The program with top PR value right now is the Hubble space telescope. Our Mars program does pretty good too.
The space station doesn't get much good PR. You could argue that just because it requires a lot of money, it's a good money maker, which is true in the short run, but is very wrong in the long run.
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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October 23, 2003, 10:49
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#22
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Deity
Local Time: 07:06
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
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Posts: 10,737
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Quote:
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I get the impression that NASA should be run on a more cost benefit basis. Choose projects, sub-projects or even the very basic things like equipment that will use the money most efficiently. They appear to worry about budgets (i.e not overspending) rather than about bang for bucks. Stitch in time, and all that.
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I think it would be tough to justify our entire manned program on a cost benefit basis. But even if you could justify increases in the annual space station budget, you couldn't get it through congress. The last time we allowed large increases was for the Apollo program. Apparently, the sums involved scared the bejeezus out of the check writers (about 1% of our economy for a couple of years).
Now we try to even out the expenditures. A steady $2 billion a year for the station plus the shuttle at $4 billion a year (the only mission for the Shuttle right now is the space station).
Over it's lifetime, the space station itself will be $95 billion, not including launch costs on the shuttle.
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
Last edited by DanS; October 23, 2003 at 10:57.
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October 23, 2003, 11:51
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#23
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Emperor
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DanS, the station was originally meant to hold at least six astronauts, but because of cutbacks to "save money", it can only support three.
You need three astronauts to just keep it running -- that's how it was designed. The other three were supposed to do the valuble research that would justify the expense.
Of course, it can't support six anymore.
__________________
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
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October 23, 2003, 11:52
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#24
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Deity
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While I think it is obvious NASA needs better management, the reason the ISS is having trouble is mainly that we half-assed it. We (both us and the Russians) made promises we can't really keep. We thought we could, but **** happens (like shuttles exploding during re-entry). Building a space station isn't exactly easy, and I think too many people expected everything to go according to plan. Now that it hasn't, we're hard-pressed to keep things going up there.
If we intend to keep the manned space program, I think we need:
1) a new launch vehicle
2) some grand goal (Mars), even if it's far-off
3) the will to get it done, even in the face of adversity (see: Apollo Program)
I don't think we have #3. Our attention is on other things - War on Terror/Afganistan/Iraq, recession, etc. There is no "us vs. the Soviets" competition to spur us on, either. China just reached the 1960s, so they will have to keep at it for a while before they are pushing us (though I kinda hope they do).
-Arrian
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grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
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October 23, 2003, 11:54
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#25
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Emperor
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It's kinda like sending up a new space telescope, but leaving out the main mirror because, you know, mirrors of that size and quality are real expensive.
__________________
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
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October 23, 2003, 11:58
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#26
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Emperor
Local Time: 07:06
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Quote:
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Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
It's also because we wouldn't commit the resources, and now things are halfassed and bandaided along since we no longer have any delivery capability to get up there.
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This is the most important reason why U.S. government programs fail. One party mandates that the government do something, the other party kills the funding. So we get a half-assed program that pisses everyone off, and then the party that killed the funding goes, "See, see, the government can't do anything right, we never swhould have spent money on this in the first place."
__________________
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
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October 23, 2003, 12:05
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#27
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King
Local Time: 13:06
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when did the ESS got renamed anyway? *curious&nonkidding*
__________________
Stopped waiting for Duke Nukem
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October 23, 2003, 12:07
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#28
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Deity
Local Time: 07:06
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Re #3, I think we have the will. No problem. The thing to remember is that Apollo required a great deal more will than does Mars, because the funding was concentrated into a 7-year program. Since time and cost are most often at loggerheads, we made things much more expensive.
Re #2, I agree that a long-term goal would be useful. More than 1/3rd of our entire space program is adrift without a raison d'etre.
Re #1, a small manned ferry would be good. The space plane is a good concept.
The irony of all of this is that by its launch vehicle choices, the Russians are in a better position to exploit a space advantage than we are. It's amazing that the chaos of the last 12 years hasn't minimized the wisdom of their choices.
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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