Are you on the left or on the right?

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Free market system, with a dirty float.

[Giancarlo]

Cool.. so we actually kinda agree on this?

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Yep. I support governments of almost all stripes who liberalize their economies and individual freedom. That includes those on the left (Lula) and those on the right (hehe cant think of one.)

[Giancarlo]

Well I guess our agreement would be limited to the economy. I am a supporter of a little more control on individual freedom...

Aznar.. yeah he is a great leader. I agree with what the government did in closing down the newspaper of that one seperatist party....

[August Borms]

i seem to have moved from ther far right to the fart right this eveneing

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm a bit left of Fez, but right of everyone else.

In Canada they would call me a fiscal and social conservative.

However, I'm a pacifist, which places me far to the left, so overall, I end up dead centre

[Frozzy]

Extreme Right.

[Odd]

I would be right wing in Brazil and left wing in America. Brazil has plenty of ultra left-wings that believe that the "international speculators" corrupted the coutry, like Hitler blamed "jewish bankers" for corrupting Germany. That makes me sick. I do believe that the state shouldn´t mess with non essential things (e.g. be a socialist with capitalist clothes and subsidy agricuture and steel industries), and I hate deficts... so I´m an economic right wing. I like a lot of stuff related to american culture, and agree with their vision about democracy.
I believe that americans should remember that France has a trauma of war deeper than the trauma americans have with terrorism. In fact, justifing a war towards Iraq based on their evil regime sounds as bad as using a dictatorship as an excuse to blow up embassies using suicide bombers. That´s plain wrong, even if the embassies actually belonged to an evil regime.
Bah, I shouldn´t have brought in this subject. Let´s wait ten years, then we will see if Bush was right. Right now is just speculation.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Closing down the separatist newspaper didnt change the minds of anyone - an anti government newspaper is a manifestation of the people's feelings and by closing it, you arnt changing their minds.

[Frozzy]

Originally posted by Fez
I am not for socialism. Never will be. I don't think it is possible. I think it is a system that can be easily corrupted and turned upside down. We saw this with Argentina. 500,000 public workers that have to be fired because they can't be paid anymore, a bankrupt health system...

No, in all senses, free market capitalism with adequate law enforcement and provisions is the best system.

[Giancarlo]

I think the Spanish Government must prevail in this. Spain must stay together. The anti-government wasn't even liked.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

If the anti gov isnt liked, then spain shoulda kept it open to scare the voters even further from that position.

[Giancarlo]

Well actually I think it was a judge who shut it down... I dunno... it was paid by ETA which commits terrorist acts.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Yeah Ive heard about the ETA - my friend is Basque and he talks about that alot. He's pro independance, anti - ETA, and very patriotic. When I mentioned Indurain, and said he was Spanish, my friend corrected me and said he was Basque.

[cinch]

I suppose I'd be considered left-wing by most. I think I'm more of a centrist, in Canadian terms, though (In America, I'd definitely be left).

That is: I'm against the gun registry, but not gun control. I'm for senate reform. I value health care and the social safety net.

As for my 'ideal government'... I'd have to say capitalism, tempered with social programs. Keynesian economics, baby!

*****************
Special Bonus Canada Post:

I have no idea who I'll vote for when the next election rolls around. Definitely not the Grits, and definitely not the Alliance. So it's down to the Tories or the NDP. My ideology seems to match up with the NDP the best, but they frighten me a little. Svend Robinson's anti-Israeli views, especially. The Tories just seem like a nothing party, but if they want to keep health care & welfare, but scrap the gun registry and reform the senate, I'll vote for whatever leader they can scrounge up.

[Ben Kenobi]

If you are not voting for the Grits, why not vote for the Alliance?

Everything else is a waste of your vote.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
Yeah Ive heard about the ETA - my friend is Basque and he talks about that alot. He's pro independance, anti - ETA, and very patriotic. When I mentioned Indurain, and said he was Spanish, my friend corrected me and said he was Basque.

I am from Madrid, and I strongly believe in one Spanish State. I was for a long time a Spanish nationalist, and still have many views like that.

[cinch]

Obi:

If you are not voting for the Grits, why not vote for the Alliance?

Because I'd rather sell my intestines on the black market.

I was no fan of the Alliance before, but Harper's recent blabbering-on concerning Iraq has turned me right off.

Everything else is a waste of your vote.

Proportional representation would cure what ails us!

I could always vote Marxist-Leninist...

Actually, now I'm thinking the Natural Law Party might be the way to go.

I want a Yogic Flyer in parliament by 2005!

[Ben Kenobi]

Looking at your list:

"I'm against the gun registry,"

That's the alliance platform.

"but not gun control."

Not sure what you mean here. Generally everyone in favour of gun control is also in favour of the gun registry.

"I'm for senate reform."
Alliance platform.

"I value health care and the social safety net."

Very soft statement. Also part of the Alliance platform.

"As for my 'ideal government'... I'd have to say capitalism, tempered with social programs. Keynesian economics, baby!"

Again, most similar to the Alliance model than any of the tax-and-spend Liberals, Conservatives and NDP.

Clearly, there must be other reasons for objecting to the Alliance that you have not posted.

[cinch]

Obi:

Not sure what you mean here. Generally everyone in favour of gun control is also in favour of the gun registry.

Generally, yes. But not me. I think certain guns should not be sold to the public, even at gun shops, as is the case with most handguns here. This, to me, is gun control.

But I most certainly do not approve of spending $1B on a pointless registry system. There is no need for the RCMP to have a catalogue stating that Farmer Joe has 2 hunting rifles at the best of times, and when it costs such a colossal amount to give them that ability, I put my foot down.

****************

As for health care and welfare: I was under the impression that the Alliance was for the reduction of most of the funding going to these social services. I was also under the impression that they sought Klein-style deregulations in the health sector.

Now, if I'm wrong: What *does* the Alliance stand for, then? By what you're saying, it seems that the only thing setting them apart from the Libs are senate reform and the gun registry.

Clearly, there must be other reasons for objecting to the Alliance that you have not posted.

I think you are trying to get me to make a broad generalisation about how "they are all racist rednecks", which I don't want to say, because I know that most of them aren't. Indeed, they have a good number of East Indian MPs (or at least one...?)! And I understand that there have really only been a few unfortunate incidents where Alliance members have made derogatory remarks about, say, Natives.

Now, as for other reasons I wouldn't vote CA:

-Their stance on the war
-Stockwell Day's presence
-Steve Harper (I rank him below Chretien on the likeability scale!)


That's all I can think of for the moment, mostly because I was under the impression that they were for less socialism, and more free marketeering, which I disagree with, at this point. I'm expecting you to prove me wrong, though...

NOTE: The MP for my area, at this time, is Alliance. Go Leon Benoit! Wait... don't.

[Ben Kenobi]

cinch:

I think certain guns should not be sold to the public, even at gun shops, as is the case with most handguns here. This, to me, is gun control.

I'd agree with you, and I think the Alliance would as well. Just wanted to clarify what you meant by gun control.

As for health care and welfare: I was under the impression that the Alliance was for the reduction of most of the funding going to these social services. I was also under the impression that they sought Klein-style deregulations in the health sector.

Good question. From what I can see is that the system as is, is not working very well. I see the Alliance favouring restructuring health care as well as some cut-backs.

I don't think we can continue to afford the current level of healthcare without some changes.

how "they are all racist rednecks",

No. Not trying to get you to say that. I'm curious as to your prime reasons for opposing the Alliance, which did not seem to be posted.

"-Their stance on the war"

Well, what does Joe Clark say about the war? Does he oppose or support?

"-Stockwell Day's presence"

You would have him resign his seat? He is elected, after all.

"-Steve Harper (I rank him below Chretien on the likeability scale!)"

Give him a chance. Chretien's had 10 years to get used to the media, Harper has not been the leader, or in the public eye for long.

Besides, how does he stack up compared to Joe Clark?

[cinch]

Obi:

I don't think we can continue to afford the current level of healthcare without some changes.

This is where we part ways, ideologically, I suppose. I think that our health care system is definitely do-able. It is suffering a little under the Libs and their bloated wastefulness (GUN REGISTRY!!! Think of what that $1B could have done!), but I think it is definitely do-able.

Well, what does Joe Clark say about the war? Does he oppose or support?

He seems to basically be focusing on the fact that we have soldiers on combat exchange in the gulf, and that we didn't pull them out, even though we're against the war, which shows that Chretien doesn't actually care about Canadian lives, only about scoring political points.

I think Clark's pro-war, but not vociferously so.

Harper's rants in the commons about how we should go to war to 'support our friends' just don't jive well with me.

A Joe Speech:

http://www.pcparty.ca/doc/644/

You would have him resign his seat? He is elected, after all.

No, I'm just saying he bothers me, and since he is a prominent member of the party, I tend to identify him with said party.

Besides, how does he stack up compared to Joe Clark?

For some strange reason, I actually find Joe Clark very, very likeable. I respect him.

************************
Some more reasons I don't particularly want to vote CA:


From the CA Webiste:

"We recognize that Endangered Species legislation must respect the fundamental rights of private property owners, include full compensation for affected landowners, and promote co-operation through incentives, not threats of punishment. "

This is code for: We will pay off the mining companies so that they don't strip-mine the wilderness, instead of just telling them they can't.

"We affirm Canada as a society where people of different races and cultural backgrounds live and work together as Canadians, and we welcome the resulting cultural enrichment and enhanced economic prosperity. We will therefore uphold the freedom of individuals and families to nurture aspects of culture that are important to them. While cherishing our diversity, we believe that multiculturalism is a personal choice and should not be publicly funded. "

Again, just as a matter of personal opinion, I disagree with this. I think gov't-funded multiculturalism makes the nation stronger, and helps us grow, culturally and socially. I see no problem with public funding in this case.

But that's just me.

[Ben Kenobi]

"We recognize that Endangered Species legislation must respect the fundamental rights of private property owners, include full compensation for affected landowners, and promote co-operation through incentives, not threats of punishment. "

A closet environmentalist, eh? Problem is that I grew up on a farm. My grandfather donated part of his land for duck habitat. He'd prefer to do these kind of things himself, without the intervention of the government.

but I think it is definitely do-able.

Not without loss of service. The problem is not the money, throwing more money is not going to fix our healthcare system.

While cherishing our diversity, we believe that multiculturalism is a personal choice and should not be publicly funded. "

I think gov't-funded multiculturalism makes the nation stronger.

How so? Why would multiculturalism fold up tent without government funding? I see these programs as slang for 'pork.'

[Giancarlo]

The problem is not the money, throwing more money is not going to fix our healthcare system.

Well the socialists think so.

[Ben Kenobi]

And the socialists are always right?

[Giancarlo]

Socialists in my mind, are always left... meaning they left the country. Sorry that was cruel..

[cinch]

Obi:

A closet environmentalist, eh? Problem is that I grew up on a farm. My grandfather donated part of his land for duck habitat. He'd prefer to do these kind of things himself, without the intervention of the government.

That's good to hear. I live in a rural area, too, so maybe that leads to my 'environmentalism' (though I wouldn't really call it that). I just think there have to be regulations regarding the conduct of corporations, when their actions may infringe on the environment.

Not without loss of service. The problem is not the money, throwing more money is not going to fix our healthcare system.

What will fix it, in your opinion? Giving free reign to insurance companies and HMOs?

How so? Why would multiculturalism fold up tent without government funding? I see these programs as slang for 'pork.'

Multiculturalism wouldn't fold up tent, no, but that doesn't mean that gov't funding is unimportant. I think portraying a message of unity through diversity in, say, the school system, is a positive aspect of publically-funded multiculturalism.

[Ben Kenobi]

What will fix it, in your opinion? Giving free reign to insurance companies and HMOs?

Go here:

http://www.canada.com/national/featu...9-0A4BA7A4B354

Secondly:

Cut most elective health care services. There's a bill right now debating the 'right' of transgendered people to subsidised sex-change operations.

Just one example how far out of whack our health care priorities have gotten.

[Giancarlo]

Being in the GBLT population I got no problem with transgendered people.. but sex-change operations covered by the State goes too far. The state could put money into other areas where it is needed.

[red_jon]

Originally posted by Fez


Well the socialists think so.

It's a better theory than the right who believe taking money away will improve things